Overpowering Attack (a reason to stay Fighter)

[Serpent]

So I am gathering from the posts on here and also posts in another thread, that I and others should just multi class, and any disadvantages we have for not doing so is our fault. Class specific abilities at high level should not be allowed cause all the multi classers would not get them and because Multi classing is the smartest thing to do with our current system, those not smart people should somehow be punished for staying pure classed.

Now don't get me wrong I have multi classed characters and find them to be very fun. And I am also of the mind anyone who takes two levels of rogue is just cheating to an extant (I DM in pnp and I hate this there too) not to say I haven't done it. When I posted this thread after discussion with a guildy (it was his idea to post it, I kinda figured that responses would be like they have been) not once did we think that multi classers would be penalized. I felt that pure classers have and are continuing to be penalized simply because they are not taking a level of another class.

So it comes down to what could a pure class get that may make some people stay true and play all the way there to get it, but it seems that it was not a smart idea. I guess my level 14 fighter is taking a level of ranger to get wands at level cap. That way I ahe something to look forward to.

[ErgonomicCat]

OK. I'm a software programmer. To me it's a Boolean condition.

Are requirements met? Then True. Else False.

"Fighter level X" is just another requirement.

Consider the Rogue special abilities. Note they all have the requirement "Must be Rogue level 10 or higher." These are also in the Player's Handbook. To say they are "bad design" is one thing, but to claim that they are "inconsistent in the rules of D&D" is false.

Those are special abilities. They aren't feats, in PnP. In DDO, they are.

AFAIK, the only PHB feat that required a class level was Weapon Spec. There have been a couple more that have come up.

Fighter Level X is a requirement, but it's a bad one. When designing PrC's, they specifically call out "Do not ever require levels in a *class*." You can require abilities that are specific to a class, such as turn undead, or weapon spec, but you can't require Fighter 4.

Feats, generally, are the same. And they *should* always be the same. It allows more flexibility. Because now, you have bizarre things like the Warblade, who counts as a fighter-2 for the purposes of feats. That's just silly.

My point is more they are inconsistent with the flavor, and *should* be inconsistent with the rules.

Weapon spec is a niche case, because it was an attempt to bring the fighter's Weapon Mastery from AD&D over. But it was a bad idea to do so, that just stuck around.

[maddmatt70]

I'd love to see overwhelming attack, but I'd also like to see a certain other feat line. Not sure where it came from, probably one of the WoTC forum boards.

True Critical
Requirements: Improved Critical, and Fighter level 13, or Base Attack Bonus +17
A character with this feat increases his or her critical threat range by 4 points.
Jenecia a fighter specialized in wielding a scythe takes true critical, her scythe's critical threat range of 19-20 (via Improved Critical) increases to 15-20 with True Critical.

Devastating Strike
Requirements: True Critical, and Fighter level 15, or Base Attack Bonus +19
A character with this feat increases his or her critical hit damage by x3.
Jenecia takes Devastating strike, her scythe normally deals x4 damage with a critical hit, taking Devastating Strike increases this to x7.

Both powerful combat feats, both available to any class that can bring up the BAB, but available to fighters much earlier.

I would argue the two most likely feats that we are going to see and probably will see sometime in mod6 or 7 are superior weapon specialization and superior weapon focus. Superior weapon focus would be level 16 required and superior weapons specialization well actually that might not come out until mod8 fighter level 18. The two feats that you show here are overpowered. If they changed them for instance true strike improve by one 19-20 becomes 18 - 20 and devasting stike increased damage by one time they would be more feasible with the same level requirements of course..

[Aesop]

AFAIK, the only PHB feat that required a class level was Weapon Spec. .

Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Spec also are from the Players Handbook. I believe there are a couple in PHB2 as well... Including Weapon Supremacy which has a requirement of Fighter level 18.


Really a fighters only bonus is the Bonus Feats. Having some Feats only being available to Fighters isn't really a bad thing. It balances against the special things that other classes get... like Rage and Mighty Rage and all those. They are options that ensure that someone can take FIghter 18 and get something special that no one else can get... Same with a Barb that takes Barb 20 gets Mighty Rage something no one else can get.

Aesop

[Deaths_ward]

I would argue the two most likely feats that we are going to see and probably will see sometime in mod6 or 7 are superior weapon specialization and superior weapon focus. Superior weapon focus would be level 16 required and superior weapons specialization well actually that might not come out until mod8 fighter level 18. The two feats that you show here are overpowered. If they changed them for instance true strike improve by one 19-20 becomes 18 - 20 and devasting stike increased damage by one time they would be more feasible with the same level requirements of course..

Actually they're only available to pure/mostly pure fighters that early. If you look at them, as any class but a fighter you don't get access to them until lvl 17+. The point was to give fighters something that brought them up at lower levels so they might compare to other classes.

Fighters of any class have the most 'dry levels', meaning they have the most levels where they get nothing but HP, BAB, and Save progression. these were tagged in there to fill in gaps of different levels.

[Staedtler]

I'd love to see overwhelming attack, but I'd also like to see a certain other feat line. Not sure where it came from, probably one of the WoTC forum boards.

True Critical
Requirements: Improved Critical, and Fighter level 13, or Base Attack Bonus +17
A character with this feat increases his or her critical threat range by 4 points.
Jenecia a fighter specialized in wielding a scythe takes true critical, her scythe's critical threat range of 19-20 (via Improved Critical) increases to 15-20 with True Critical.

Devastating Strike
Requirements: True Critical, and Fighter level 15, or Base Attack Bonus +19
A character with this feat increases his or her critical hit damage by x3.
Jenecia takes Devastating strike, her scythe normally deals x4 damage with a critical hit, taking Devastating Strike increases this to x7.

Both powerful combat feats, both available to any class that can bring up the BAB, but available to fighters much earlier.

As a DM, whenever a player asks for approval on a feat like this I like to have a little exchange with them. I call it the "Golden Rule Test."

Player: Hey, can I let my fighter have this feat I found online? It's pretty cool!
Me: Let's take a look.... wow, that's powerful.
P: Sure is!
M: Alright, go ahead and take it.
P: Great!
M: But.
P: But?
M: Wouldn't you say any fighter in the game would be silly not to take that?
P: Yeah!
M: Alright. So, you won't be surprised when everything you encounter in this game also has that feat.
P: Oh... um
M: Hope you like going up against a fighter who uses rapiers! Enjoy being criticalled on 11-20 for x4 damage!

I love powergamers in my campaigns. Gives me an excuse to powergame right back at them

As for the matter at hand: I don't believe it's been established that a pure class deserves to be rewarded. The idea that playing a pure class is inherently right in 3.x DnD is misguided (it's not wrong, either. it's just not heavily encouraged). Besides, the enhancement system already provides class-specific access to certain boosts.

[Hvymetal]

Fighters of any class have the most 'dry levels', meaning they have the most levels where they get nothing but HP, BAB, and Save progression. these were tagged in there to fill in gaps of different levels.

See Paladin :

[lenric]

Evasion isn't a feat. It's a class ability or class feature (can't remember the exact term). Favored enemy is also not a feat, it's a class feature/ability. Basically anything derived from your class isn't a feat. Feats are something any class/race can get provided they meet the prerequisites. Class features/abilities are strictly tied to their relevant class. I'm sure DDO lumps class features/abilities with feats to save space in the character sheet.

Think of the weapon foci and the weapon spec's as fighter class features/abilities, rather than feats. Almost all other feats don't require you be a certain class, other than the spellcasting feats (those obviously require some type of spellcasting class).

My only problem with considering greater weapon focus and weapon specialization as class abilities rather than feats is the fact that they ARE feats...you take them as a feat, they are not granted automatically as most/all class abilities are, you have to use your feat for a new level to chose that feat. They are in fact feats. The ability the OP mentioned is in fact a feat, it is a feat that has a requirement of so many levels of fighter, same as weapon spec and weapon focus. I for one say awesome add it into the game, there aren't enough pure build anythings out there, and anything that can make those builds more appealing as well as adding in more pnp content is fine by me.

[Griphon]

None of those are *feats* though. That's the point. Feats can require certain things, but feats should never require levels in a class.

Class abilities? Sure. Enhancements? Yes. Spells? That's a class ability. *Number* of feats? Okay.

But a specific feat? Nope. That's a fundamental principle of DnD, and just makes sense. You can set the bar at BAB +16 (only melee classes) and 10 particular feats, but don't just say "Fighter 16 required."

Right... Lets go dig into the D&D PHB... *shuffle shuffle*
Oh.. Here it is!
Weapon Specialization... Requires a certain number of fighter levels.

Oh my gods.. It -is- a Fundamental Principle of DnD! Fighters get special feats to give an edge over other classes.. (not to mention the NUMBER of feats they get). So yeah... A feat straight from the PnP game IS a DnD....

Please... Read.. the.. BOOK.. before making comments like these. The more you know.. The less you are going to say something thats just blatantly incorrect.

Think of the weapon foci and the weapon spec's as fighter class features/abilities, rather than feats. Almost all other feats don't require you be a certain class, other than the spellcasting feats (those obviously require some type of spellcasting class).

No.. Please don't! Please think of 'Weapon Specialization' as a Feat. Because.. it is! I mean.. it's listed in the feats.. It's described in the FEATS section. It's selectable by those who meet the requirements at any time they meet the requirements.. This means.. it's a feat! It's not earned merely just by leveling up in the class. That is a Class Feature/Ability.

Please try not to spindoctor rules just because they don't meet your liking. If you want to do that? DM. It's your call then.

Feat and/or class abilities are one of the same. They serve the same purposes. This conversation is moot... as it is a MC character gives up something from x class to take y class - as it should be. You should not have a better fighter because you splashed pally or rogue in the end their should be a trade-off to it. This is why MC and Pures are suppose to be viable powerwise through the entire system. Equivalent exchange.

The only thing I have problem with this one is the very first statement. As I said above, they are not the same. Pretty much for the same reasons as above. Example? 2d6 Sneak Attack? I can not purchase this at any time. I only receive this as at a certain level in rogue. (Um.. no book handy to verify the level.) That makes it a class ability.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Muticlassing has advantages: versatility, ability to combine class features in powerful ways

Pure classing has advantages: access to more powerful class features

If pure classes didn't have carrots dangling at high levels, there would be no reason to stay pure. Everyone would multiclass. Whether you call them feats, abilities, enhancements or features .. it doesn't matter. What matters is that all player choices must come with advantages and disadvantages to make a game system interesting.

And guess what .. a complex game system like DDO has more than enough feats, abilities, enhancements and features to allow for the odd feat that has a class level prerequisite.

[Serpent]

Muticlassing has advantages: versatility, ability to combine class features in powerful ways

Pure classing has advantages: access to more powerful class features

If pure classes didn't have carrots dangling at high levels, there would be no reason to stay pure. Everyone would multiclass. Whether you call them feats, abilities, enhancements or features .. it doesn't matter. What matters is that all player choices must come with advantages and disadvantages to make a game system interesting.

And guess what .. a complex game system like DDO has more than enough feats, abilities, enhancements and features to allow for the odd feat that has a class level prerequisite.

That is exactly my point, A feat or ability thats is class specific shouldn't and wouldn't affect the game except some people would cry that they can't use it in there current build.

[Griphon]

Yes. I agree..

It's not like the ones currently in game are breaking anything, eh?

How ever.. The feats posted by um... (not gunna quote the person, did that three times today!) MysticalRhythms? I think are over the top! Unless MR was mis-remembering the numbers. An +1 increase in Increment and Damage Multiplier would not be out of bounds. (I've mentioned the Weapon Master PrC in another thread, and yeah.. I know it's 3.0. But it still works in 3.5.)

I think setting these up as Enhancement based PrC like the Bard's special abilities would put the Fighters back on Par with the Barb's Rage Crit bonus. (That Rage Crit thing is just Silly Powerful!) Or.. If not as a PrC Enhancement, just as a normal one then.