Overpowering Attack (a reason to stay Fighter)

[axebender]

I hate it. I hate anything that's supposed to force going pure-classed just to be a pure class. I'd rather see them implement a sweet super-powered feat that has a TON of prerequisite feats. Like whirlwind or shot on the run, but to the next level.

staying pure should always have its advantages ..if they allowed everyone that multiclassed to have everything the other classes had, it would make no sense..whats the point then? you shouldnt be able to multiclass and have everything from both sides..multiclassing should have a trade off element too it. u gain lvls in one class but give up something in order to gain another

[Serpent]

A level 14 fighter has 13 feats, 14 if human, I would say that is pretty special.

It is in pnp but in a game were survivability is much more important its not. I would give up a feat to get a lay on hands, or how about the ability to use a wand. Not saying I should be able to do this but fighters need something special. I ask anyone to roll up a pure fighter then have them try to solo any high level quest. Chances are they will not last vs say a pally or a bard, and maybe they shouldn't, but lets face it the only thing they get over any other class is the amount of feats adn the two specific fighter only feats.

Not sure why everyone is so critical of this idea for just one kind of enhancement. Don't really recall anyone being down on he new meta magic system...

[Emili]

Feat and/or class abilities are one of the same. They serve the same purposes. This conversation is moot... as it is a MC character gives up something from x class to take y class - as it should be. You should not have a better fighter because you splashed pally or rogue in the end their should be a trade-off to it. This is why MC and Pures are suppose to be viable powerwise through the entire system. Equivalent exchange.

[Cowdenicus]

It is in pnp but in a game were survivability is much more important its not. I would give up a feat to get a lay on hands, or how about the ability to use a wand. Not saying I should be able to do this but fighters need something special. I ask anyone to roll up a pure fighter then have them try to solo any high level quest. Chances are they will not last vs say a pally or a bard, and maybe they shouldn't, but lets face it the only thing they get over any other class is the amount of feats adn the two specific fighter only feats.

Not sure why everyone is so critical of this idea for just one kind of enhancement. Don't really recall anyone being down on he new meta magic system...

I am all for balance, but since the dps of a barbarian and the dps of a fighter are just about equal, you are going to have a hard time convincing me (personally) that fighters are underpowered and need help.

When fighters get their prestige enhancement lines, I expect them to be pretty good, but I dont expect to see them until they come out with barbarian ones and to be honest these 2 classes are in the least need of them.

[llevenbaxx]

It is in pnp but in a game were survivability is much more important its not. I would give up a feat to get a lay on hands, or how about the ability to use a wand. Not saying I should be able to do this but fighters need something special. I ask anyone to roll up a pure fighter then have them try to solo any high level quest. Chances are they will not last vs say a pally or a bard, and maybe they shouldn't, but lets face it the only thing they get over any other class is the amount of feats adn the two specific fighter only feats.

Not sure why everyone is so critical of this idea for just one kind of enhancement. Don't really recall anyone being down on he new meta magic system...

Thats why you think they need something special? Because they cant solo as well as other classes in endgame content? All classes are not created equal in D&D, all will have areas where they excel and come up short. A ftr(and barbs) shortcoming is they are a more group dependent class. This is where the balance comes in. If you want to be more versatile(a key part of soloing) I would recommend multiclassing or choosing a more fitting line of feats to better suit your desired playstyle.

[MysticRhythms]

None of those are *feats* though. That's the point. Feats can require certain things, but feats should never require levels in a class.

Class abilities? Sure. Enhancements? Yes. Spells? That's a class ability. *Number* of feats? Okay.

But a specific feat? Nope. That's a fundamental principle of DnD, and just makes sense. You can set the bar at BAB +16 (only melee classes) and 10 particular feats, but don't just say "Fighter 16 required."

How can you require class abilities and not require levels in a class? How is it even different? If the ONLY way to obtain a class ability is to obtain levels in that class, what's the difference?

There are so many examples of 3.5 feats in the "Complete" and other books that do this:

Extra Rage (CompWar)- requires Rage (the only way to get Rage is to have levels in a class that gives Rage)
Staggering Strike (CompAdv) - requires BaB and Sneak Attack (the only way to obtain Sneak Attack is via class levels)
Divine Fortune (PHB2) - requires divine caster level 5
Swift Hunter (PHB2) - requires Skirmish and Favored Enemy

I can go on and on.

I jsut don't see what the difference is in saying a feat "requires Fighter level X"

The basic Player's Handbook even does this with Weapon Specialization.

[Serpent]

I am all for balance too and if you remove the barb enhancements they do equal out with a fighter. But what about a fighter vs say a sorc or a wizard or heck even a cleric. Its safe to say that balance went out the window long ago. Talking about it now its moot. Fighters are slowly getting left behind, this is my opinion I know, but if an idea doesn't hurt you why not give it some support.

Its like the Pally thread from long ago. They have been a whipping boy class for a long time, yet who gets all the loves, sorcs and wizzy and then a little bard love. Melee classes need some help now too, Cmon if fighters where the over powered ones they would have made the shadows in Vol immune to holy, pg, and given them dr 20/-, yet it was the sorcs that had to get the blanket immunity, not because they were balanced but because they are unbalanced.

This enhancement idea is just that an idea, so if people can think of a way to improve it go for it, I think its a good toss up, twice the damage half the attack speed, not bad imo. But if the question is balance then give it up, there is no balance in this game hasn't really ever been any, otherwise any class could perform any said task, and we all know that is not the case.

[Cowdenicus]

I am all for balance too and if you remove the barb enhancements they do equal out with a fighter. But what about a fighter vs say a sorc or a wizard or heck even a cleric. Its safe to say that balance went out the window long ago. Talking about it now its moot. Fighters are slowly getting left behind, this is my opinion I know, but if an idea doesn't hurt you why not give it some support.

Its like the Pally thread from long ago. They have been a whipping boy class for a long time, yet who gets all the loves, sorcs and wizzy and then a little bard love. Melee classes need some help now too, Cmon if fighters where the over powered ones they would have made the shadows in Vol immune to holy, pg, and given them dr 20/-, yet it was the sorcs that had to get the blanket immunity, not because they were balanced but because they are unbalanced.

This enhancement idea is just that an idea, so if people can think of a way to improve it go for it, I think its a good toss up, twice the damage half the attack speed, not bad imo. But if the question is balance then give it up, there is no balance in this game hasn't really ever been any, otherwise any class could perform any said task, and we all know that is not the case.

Casters (and I include clerics here) are balanced, they are very weak at the beginning of the campaign and slowly grow in power (at this point into the campaign they are finally starting to hit their stride.)

Fighters on the other hand start off with alot of power and build quickly to about level 10 then start to taper off and plateau.

My level 4 barbarian absolutely rocks through normal and even hard content at his level (and he is soloing that content). My level 2 sorceror runs out of spell points all the time running even solo quests.

Balance.

[MysticRhythms]

Casters (and I include clerics here) are balanced, they are very weak at the beginning of the campaign and slowly grow in power (at this point into the campaign they are finally starting to hit their stride.)

Fighters on the other hand start off with alot of power and build quickly to about level 10 then start to taper off and plateau.

That's not balance at all. It is actually the antithesis of balance.

These issues, by the way, are one of the biggest changes to the 4.0 PnP ruleset - the idea that classes shall be balanced across all levels.

[Serpent]

Casters (and I include clerics here) are balanced, they are very weak at the beginning of the campaign and slowly grow in power (at this point into the campaign they are finally starting to hit their stride.)

Fighters on the other hand start off with alot of power and build quickly to about level 10 then start to taper off and plateau.

Umm... that is so far from balanced I would say that would be ... unbalanced. Endgame, thats what we are all talking about, not from beginning to end. At endgame, we are not balanced adn I don't think that matters, it will never get balanced. But as far as content for classes, The melee classes are far lacking in some and it has been sometime since they have gotten any, fighters having gotten the least attention over all the mods. If I recall all we really got was a lowering in our attack rate (and yes I know this was for all classes). Yes we do get a ton of feats, but there are only so many feats that are worth getting, eventually we are going to run out.

This is all just a thought but lets face it melee is seriously behind others.

[Cowdenicus]

Umm... that is so far from balanced I would say that would be ... unbalanced. Endgame, thats what we are all talking about, not from beginning to end. At endgame, we are not balanced adn I don't think that matters, it will never get balanced. But as far as content for classes, The melee classes are far lacking in some and it has been sometime since they have gotten any, fighters having gotten the least attention over all the mods. If I recall all we really got was a lowering in our attack rate (and yes I know this was for all classes). Yes we do get a ton of feats, but there are only so many feats that are worth getting, eventually we are going to run out.

This is all just a thought but lets face it melee is seriously behind others.

Which is how it should be according to D&D. Also as a side note, melees extra attacks and bonus to hit I would not considered underpowered.

[Serpent]

Which is how it should be according to D&D. Also as a side note, melees extra attacks and bonus to hit I would not considered underpowered.

Everyone gets those its not based upon class its based upon bab, melee's do have the highest but clerics and bards also benefits from those at our current level. So those are not an exclusively melee ability. This thread was propsing an exclusive melee ability, fighter preferably but any melee at this point

As a side note I have capped a fighter, rogue, bard, cleric, paladin, ranger and a caster. I'm not biased I have seen every side of this argument.

[MysticRhythms]

Which is how it should be according to D&D.

Says who? This is one of the biggest complaints in the 3.5 ruleset and is supposedly being addressed in 4.0.

[Deaths_ward]

I'd love to see overwhelming attack, but I'd also like to see a certain other feat line. Not sure where it came from, probably one of the WoTC forum boards.

True Critical
Requirements: Improved Critical, and Fighter level 13, or Base Attack Bonus +17
A character with this feat increases his or her critical threat range by 4 points.
Jenecia a fighter specialized in wielding a scythe takes true critical, her scythe's critical threat range of 19-20 (via Improved Critical) increases to 15-20 with True Critical.

Devastating Strike
Requirements: True Critical, and Fighter level 15, or Base Attack Bonus +19
A character with this feat increases his or her critical hit damage by x3.
Jenecia takes Devastating strike, her scythe normally deals x4 damage with a critical hit, taking Devastating Strike increases this to x7.

Both powerful combat feats, both available to any class that can bring up the BAB, but available to fighters much earlier.

[Serpent]

I'd love to see overwhelming attack, but I'd also like to see a certain other feat line. Not sure where it came from, probably one of the WoTC forum boards.

True Critical
Requirements: Improved Critical, and Fighter level 13, or Base Attack Bonus +17
A character with this feat increases his or her critical threat range by 4 points.
Jenecia a fighter specialized in wielding a scythe takes true critical, her scythe's critical threat range of 19-20 (via Improved Critical) increases to 15-20 with True Critical.

Devastating Strike
Requirements: True Critical, and Fighter level 15, or Base Attack Bonus +19
A character with this feat increases his or her critical hit damage by x3.
Jenecia takes Devastating strike, her scythe normally deals x4 damage with a critical hit, taking Devastating Strike increases this to x7.

Both powerful combat feats, both available to any class that can bring up the BAB, but available to fighters much earlier.

Two very nice ideas, if you find or remember more please post em

[Vienemen]

These issues, by the way, are one of the biggest changes to the 4.0 PnP ruleset - the idea that classes shall be balanced across all levels.

And I have read that many people dislike that aspect. I am one as well. Balanced against each other in my opinion is bad. Balance in categories might be more appropriate i.e. casters, melee, ranged etc

[MysticRhythms]

And I have read that many people dislike that aspect.

It's far from many. The number one complaint about 3.5 was the dominance of the cleric/druid at the high levels of the game compared to the dominance of the fighter at the low levels of the game. There is no point to go past Fighter 10 (and in many cases, Fighter 4) in the current PnP ruleset. It makes far mroe sense to dip Barbarian for the Rage, Ranger for the extra few feats on the front end and then just pick a Prestige Class later.

And with spellcasters, there is practically no point (aside from flavor) to multiclassing into anything that doesn't permit full spellcasting progression. That's a fundamental flaw in the game and far more players of that type exist than the ones who want to maintain spellcaster dominance.

The complainers are just more vocal.

[ErgonomicCat]

Maybe we are talking across each other since I don't play PnP and may not term things the same.

From what I can tell in DDO:
Evasion is a feat. (rogue 2 or ranger 9 required.)
Favored enemy is a feat. (Ranger level x is required.)
Weapon specialization is a feat (fighter level 4 required.)
Greater weapon focus is a feat (fighter level 8 required.)
Greater weapon specialization is a feat (fighter level 12 required.)

There are others that show up in the feat list. Are you calling the automatic ones "abilities" instead of feats? If so, that still leaves the advanced weapons feats that fighters already get that noone else does. There may be others, but those are the ones I can think of.

Possibly.

Evasion and Favored Enemies are class abilities. But you're right, that they are feats in DDO.

Weapon Spec is an abonimation against God and Man. Seriously. It's just bad design. If you have to be a fighter to take it, it's not a feat, it's a class ability.

Sorry, I forget not everyone cares about minutae like that. I'm ... uh...special that way.

[MysticRhythms]

Weapon Spec is an abonimation against God and Man. Seriously. It's just bad design. If you have to be a fighter to take it, it's not a feat, it's a class ability.
Sorry, I forget not everyone cares about minutae like that. I'm ... uh...special that way.

OK. I'm a software programmer. To me it's a Boolean condition.

Are requirements met? Then True. Else False.

"Fighter level X" is just another requirement.

Consider the Rogue special abilities. Note they all have the requirement "Must be Rogue level 10 or higher." These are also in the Player's Handbook. To say they are "bad design" is one thing, but to claim that they are "inconsistent in the rules of D&D" is false.

[Twerpp]

Agree, what special feats will my MC characters going to get access to that pures dont?

LOL What feats? Whatever free class-specific abilities, feats or other benefits you got from multi-classing that a pure classer has no access to and certainly not for free, maybe divine grace, fearless, immune to disease, spellcasting, bow strength or free TWF to name a few.

I think there should be alight at the end of the tunnel for pure classes in the form of level 20 enhancements, otherwise why should every fighter take 2 pally, why shouldnt every cleric take 1 sorc or pally for sp. And if the feat the OP is talking about is pre-req lvl 16 fighter in SRD then why shouldnt it be so here?