No Save vs Enervate - VON 3

[GlassCannon]

OK Who went and broke(changed) the Beholders again? Graal? Eladrin? Merlask? WHODUNNIT??

Please fix it.

Being Enervated to death as I am encased in magical stone and being antimagic'd isn't exactly a lvl 9 adventure. It's more of a lvl 14 nightmare.


Remember, VON 3 Beholders being a bit too tough for level 9's is the original topic

[BlueLightBandit]

I'm confused... what's the problem.

Enervate doesn't get a save... that's the way it's always been. Spell resistance protects to some degree, but not much, unless you're a mob.

[bandyman1]

Dang bro. There hasn't been a save on enervate since Mod 4 or longer. You just now figuring this one out?

[MrCow]

No Save vs Enervate

Please fix it.

How do you fix something that isn't broken? Enervation has no save and ray spells in DDO have no ranged touch attack check to make. Your defense versus enervation is Spell Resistance or send in the local Warforged (unless that isn't working, then that is a valid concern).

[Cowdenicus]

Vanash cannot be enervated. If you get hit with enervate, it is time for you to reroll.


Now go kill something.

[Aspenor]

Enervation
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Ray of negative energy
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
You point your finger and utter the incantation, releasing a black ray of crackling negative energy that suppresses the life force of any living creature it strikes. You must make a ranged touch attack to hit. If the attack succeeds, the subject gains 1d4 negative levels.
If the subject has at least as many negative levels as HD, it dies. Each negative level gives a creature a –1 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks, and effective level (for determining the power, duration, DC, and other details of spells or special abilities).
Additionally, a spellcaster loses one spell or spell slot from his or her highest available level. Negative levels stack.
Assuming the subject survives, it regains lost levels after a number of hours equal to your caster level (maximum 15 hours). Usually, negative levels have a chance of permanently draining the victim’s levels, but the negative levels from enervation don’t last long enough to do so.
An undead creature struck by the ray gains 1d4x5 temporary hit points for 1 hour.

[GlassCannon]

I'm confused... what's the problem.

Enervate doesn't get a save... that's the way it's always been. Spell resistance protects to some degree, but not much, unless you're a mob.

Will Save in the pit, PvPing... so my Combat Log has been lying to me?

[GlassCannon]

Enervation
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Ray of negative energy
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
You point your finger and utter the incantation, releasing a black ray of crackling negative energy that suppresses the life force of any living creature it strikes. You must make a ranged touch attack to hit. If the attack succeeds, the subject gains 1d4 negative levels.
If the subject has at least as many negative levels as HD, it dies. Each negative level gives a creature a –1 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks, and effective level (for determining the power, duration, DC, and other details of spells or special abilities).
Additionally, a spellcaster loses one spell or spell slot from his or her highest available level. Negative levels stack.
Assuming the subject survives, it regains lost levels after a number of hours equal to your caster level (maximum 15 hours). Usually, negative levels have a chance of permanently draining the victim’s levels, but the negative levels from enervation don’t last long enough to do so.
An undead creature struck by the ray gains 1d4x5 temporary hit points for 1 hour.

Ah, so it was broken and they fixed it. Ic Ic.

I highlighted the other part that is still broken.

Do I need to look up SRD every time something gets changed then, instead of asking the devs why they changed it?
I assume that to be a yes.

If that is the case Scorpions need to lose Burrowing, Wraiths and such need to lose Phasing, and other changes need to be made.

[GlassCannon]

Dang bro. There hasn't been a save on enervate since Mod 4 or longer. You just now figuring this one out?

I haven't played a tank since MOD 4 until recently.

Yeah, there was a save on it. It needs to stay that way, or it's a bit overpowered. I never did check my log in the fight against Cinnis as my ranger... thought the DC was really high is all... kept getting Enervated to death.

Also, just noticed... Ranged Touch? Does that mean it's like Deific Vengeance and Finger of Death, or slow like Dis or Niac's?

If it's like Dis or Niac's it needs to be adjusted properly.

If it's an Instant with no real Ranged Touch at all, that one is going into my sorc's repertoire ASAP.

[KaKa]

Enervation has never had a saved. It is also a ray spell so it technically can be dodged. The spell that is most like enervation is scorching ray, it hits ya it does its effect. Use deathward if you want to avoid it, but thats not gonna help against a beholder .

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Ah, so it was broken and they fixed it. Ic Ic.

I highlighted the other part that is still broken.

Actually, you missed the bigger part this is still broken, mages should lose spells too

So you are complaining because after 16 hours in game the level drain is still there? You play 16 hours without gettting fixed up? Ok, well, um, I guess a shrine should remove 8ish negative levels but other than that not seeing the big deal on the missing part you highlight.

Do I need to look up SRD every time something gets changed then, instead of asking the devs why they changed it?
I assume that to be a yes.

If that is the case Scorpions need to lose Burrowing, Wraiths and such need to lose Phasing, and other changes need to be made.

Corrrect. Those are broken things that should be fixed. If they are fixed you don't need to come here and complain

[Aspenor]

I haven't played a tank since MOD 4 until recently.

Yeah, there was a save on it. It needs to stay that way, or it's a bit overpowered. I never did check my log in the fight against Cinnis as my ranger... thought the DC was really high is all... kept getting Enervated to death.

Also, just noticed... Ranged Touch? Does that mean it's like Deific Vengeance and Finger of Death, or slow like Dis or Niac's?

If it's like Dis or Niac's it needs to be adjusted properly.

If it's an Instant with no real Ranged Touch at all, that one is going into my sorc's repertoire ASAP.

A ranged touch attack is a ranged attack roll vs the target's base + dexterity + dodge bonuses to AC. They are not implemented in DDO All ray spells require one in PnP, including scorching ray, ray of exhaustion & enfeeblement, enervation, etc.

I might be wrong about base AC being in the equation, but I'm too busy atm to look it up.

Turbine has decided to use the "twitch" mechanic for ray spells instead of ranged touch attacks. Lateral movement is your best friend. It has no save VS monsters either, and can be extremely useful if you have a 4th level slot open.

[GlassCannon]

Actually, you missed the bigger part this is still broken, mages should lose spells too

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! DON'T MENTION THAT PART!!!

lol


Also, Asp, I wish it were dodgeable but seriously, vertical and lateral movement do not seem to work at all, especially against Cinnis. I get hit with it every time. Once every 5 seconds, Enervate. Every 5 seconds. It clearly does not function like a Ray spell.

and hooray for text effects! let's have some more underlines!_____________

[Cowdenicus]

Casters do lose the spells, this is done via level loss, and losing the sp.

[MysticTheurge]

Enervation had a will save before players got access to the spell in Mod 4.

At that point, they removed the save and made it a ray spell like any other ray spell in DDO.

Now, there are really two problems here, and their two of my "pet" problems.

First, ray spells need ranged touch attacks implemented. It's absurd that they're not. It's a huge hit for dex-based characters, and a huge boost for spellcasters. You all know that I've been a long advocate for spellcasters, but these days they're doing pretty well. Dex-based characters (rogues, archer-types) on the other hand could really use the help. Thus, it's long past time to properly implement Touch and Ranged Touch attack rolls for touch and ray spells.

Second, is beholders. Their eyebeams are supernatural abilities. Supernatural abilities shouldn't function in an anti-magic zone. Anti-magic zones should suppress, not dispel, spells that are already in existence. Thus, you should be able to go up against a beholder with a Death Ward on in the full knowledge that he can't hit you with enervate. While you're not in his anti-magic cone, your death ward is active and you're immune to enervation. While you are in his anti-magic cone, your death ward is suppressed, but he also can't target you with eyebeams. Essentially being in the area of effect gives you a "buff" that causes certain things to be true. Thus, anti-magic cone says "if you have this buff, you can't cast spells" when in fact it should say "you can't cast spells and you can't be targeted by spells (including enemy supernatural abilities)."

[Mad_Bombardier]

Assuming the subject survives, it regains lost levels after a number of hours equal to your caster level

So, shouldn't these be on a timer equal to caster level minutes and ALL go away upon using a rest shrine? That would certainly help level appropriate characters fighting beholders. (yes it's a effect fix rather than a cause fix, but I'm shooting for reasonable to implement.)

[Aspenor]

If ranged touch attacks were implemented, all ray spells would need to be reworked to eliminate the "twitch" factor, then.

They would need to be auto target, such as magic missiles, but would force a d20 ranged touch attack.

Double jeopardy for casters on missing would be a tad off-base, IMO.

However, Turbine seems have trepidations to implementing this change, I made this point many moons ago about scorching rays vs. dex-based characters.

[MysticTheurge]

If ranged touch attacks were implemented, all ray spells would need to be reworked to eliminate the "twitch" factor, then.

They would need to be auto target, such as magic missiles, but would force a d20 ranged touch attack.

Double jeopardy for casters on missing would be a tad off-base, IMO.

Missile attacks (arrows, thrown weapons) have "double jeopardy." Melee attacks have "double jeopardy."

I'd be all for increasing the speed of rays so they move a bit faster, but I don't see why they shouldn't have "double jeopardy." That's the way DDO works.

[Vorn]

An additional problem with twitch dodging these ranged touch attacks seems to be the time differential between server and client. Admittedly I'm not the best at this but there have been many instances when I'm sure I'm a good lateral distance away from the blasted eye beam or scorching ray, the beam passes by me visually, and it still registers as a hit.

PS completely agree with MT regarding the DDO uber-beholder.

[Aspenor]

Missile attacks (arrows, thrown weapons) have "double jeopardy." Melee attacks have "double jeopardy."

I'd be all for increasing the speed of rays so they move a bit faster, but I don't see why they shouldn't have "double jeopardy." That's the way DDO works.

It makes more sense for melee attacks than for ranged and ranged touch. You need to be close enough to get an attack roll. Ranged attacks are highly dependant on the direction the target is moving compared to the angle of attack, much moreso than melee attacks.

I would support ranged attacks having the double jeopardy mechanic removed as well.