Staying Pure Classed? - A 'State of the Game' Posting

[Kalanth]

Enhancements:
Ranger Specialty Enhancements (Tempest, Arcane Archer, Deadwood Sniper) - It is assumed at this point to be a Level 6 or 9 Enhancement

I knew about all the other stuff, but I must have missed these. At least now I know the answer to the question that always was in the back of my head. What are they going to do about Prestige Classes?

As for pure vs. multi-classing, it's a personal call in all cases. As a player who hates single class I can say that I will continue to miss out on some of the "best of the best" enhancements, spells, and other things that come with pure class. I am interested in those things, don't get me wrong, but I also don't want to (IMO) throw away 16 perfectly good levels on just pure fighter (for example.) I would say that the things that are introduced would have to be stellar and really, really, really hard to resist for me to make another pure class character again (deleted a 14 cleric just because he was single class.)

[llevenbaxx]

I was not meaning XP penalties, but the Multi Classing penalties in PnP. For example a Paladin who levels up in another class loses his aura and LoH and any Faith-based stuffs, or a Cleric who loses his spellcasting until he takes another level of Cleric, or Barbarians losing their rage & fast movement... things along those lines.



I guess the Barbarian Power Critical doesn't count as an Enhancement?

But seriously, my point is that PnP always encouraged Pure Classes, and with the direction of DDO right now, there is virtually no incentive for many of the melee-type classes to stay Pure... and that is a concern.

PnP 2nd addition always encouraged pureclass. 3.5 D&D encouraged you to do w/e you wanted. Why do you think they had all kinds of way to MC completely free of penalty. Favored classes for the races, dual classes etc. There wold be too much confusion for non-D&D players to try and jam all that into an MMO. You can MC a paladin too, you just have to take the levels of w/e you want before you take any paly levels then do the roleplaying to get into a faith and be appropriate alignment. I honestly dont ever remember reading how a cleric loses his spell casting ability if he takes levels in another class, is that 3.5? Same with barbarians losing their rage ability...

3.5 D&D never... ever encouraged pureclass over MC. They just give some guildlines you have to do it by, mostly for roleplaying reasons. Like an above poster stated, its near impossible to gimp a pureclassed character and there is some risk in MC. Im guessing they will add level 20 enhancements to classes that will be nice to have, Im just hoping they put some real thought into them and not grossly overpower them(ala enhancement system #1).

I have pureclass and multiclass - melee AND caster characters. None of them are gimp, none of them are under or overpowered, they all do exactly what I made them to do. Anyone can do the same.

Sorry I just fully disagree that pureclass characters are in such a sorry state. You have to build them to what you want them to accomplish within reason. I will agree that some classes are slightly behind the power curve due to enhancements but this can be fixed with some very minor adds. Jus my $19.95

[GlassCannon]

Bleh. We might as well be playing WoW with all the numbercrunchers and powergrinders out there.

I'm staying behind pure classes all the way through Epics. I will make some Prestiges, but my pures will not be rerolled, or defiled.

[MysticTheurge]

Im guessing they will add level 20 enhancements to classes that will be nice to have, Im just hoping they put some real thought into them and not grossly overpower them(ala enhancement system #1).

Hmm. Capstone enhancements could be pretty cool.

[nbhs275]

Staying pure on : Clerics, barbarians, rangers, paladins, rogues, bards, wizards, sorcerers, and fighters.

Its just people like silly builds that "gain" alittle by sacrificing ALOT.

Splashing is close enough to pure for most classes, like a 2 level splash of rogue in a fighter or paladin build. Or a splash of wizard on a ranger. But for a barbarian, they become much weaker if you splash anything into them, as do bards and sorcerers.

The 10/2/2 bards and sorcerers out there give up all the top tier abilities for evasion, and often very little else. Im not going to say these builds are horrible, but that the sum of their parts is still less then the abilties of the pure class version.

But overall, it all works out. The prestige class enhancments may just open up these basic rules, depending on what is in them. Maybe the rangers arcane archer will get something very nice, like spells on arrows(using up a wand to do it or something like that).

OR maybe the tempest will gain a large dodge bonus to TWF when he is moving.

We don't know what we are getting in the future, so to plan around the unknown doesnt make much sense.

[nbhs275]

PnP 2nd addition always encouraged pureclass. 3.5 D&D encouraged you to do w/e you wanted. Why do you think they had all kinds of way to MC completely free of penalty. Favored classes for the races, dual classes etc. There wold be too much confusion for non-D&D players to try and jam all that into an MMO. You can MC a paladin too, you just have to take the levels of w/e you want before you take any paly levels then do the roleplaying to get into a faith and be appropriate alignment. I honestly dont ever remember reading how a cleric loses his spell casting ability if he takes levels in another class, is that 3.5? Same with barbarians losing their rage ability...

3.5 D&D never... ever encouraged pureclass over MC. They just give some guildlines you have to do it by, mostly for roleplaying reasons. Like an above poster stated, its near impossible to gimp a pureclassed character and there is some risk in MC. Im guessing they will add level 20 enhancements to classes that will be nice to have, Im just hoping they put some real thought into them and not grossly overpower them(ala enhancement system #1).

I have pureclass and multiclass - melee AND caster characters. None of them are gimp, none of them are under or overpowered, they all do exactly what I made them to do. Anyone can do the same.

Sorry I just fully disagree that pureclass characters are in such a sorry state. You have to build them to what you want them to accomplish within reason. I will agree that some classes are slightly behind the power curve due to enhancements but this can be fixed with some very minor adds. Jus my $19.95

Clerics could lose their spells if their god dies, or if they lose the faith(ie change alignments radically) and a barbarian loses his rage if he becomes lawful. But monk can become choatic and maintains the monk abilities he had up to that point.

MC in 3.5 Became the rulemonger and munchkin heaven. Nothing like having 9th lvl arcane, 9th level divine, and 6th lvl bard abilities. Or getting a 25 HD dragon as your halflings mount.

[Taerdra]

My take on all the pure class vs. MC stuff:

1) DDO has actually done a good job giving people reasons to stay pure, much more than PnP under 3.5. In PnP, while there are pure class builds that are quite effective, I think it is safe to say that a MC built to the same purpose will just about always be more effective.
2) DDO enhancements are a limited -- albeit very limited -- implementation of prestige classes. The idea that a lvl 14 Barb with Power Rage 4 is not the equivalent of a multi-classed Barb with some mix of prestige classes is actually incorrect.
3) The issue is that not all DDO enhancements are created equal. Clearly, from a min/maxer POV, there are certain sets that are more effective than others even after you exclude the fact that some synergies "naturally" lead you to default to certain combinations.
4) XP penalties are a bad idea IMO. I don't want to run more of the same old quests to make up for my XP penalty.

That said, I think the enhancements for Rangers and Paladins need to be reevaluated and improved while all races should be brought up to the same "power" as dwarves.

[llevenbaxx]

Clerics could lose their spells if their god dies, or if they lose the faith(ie change alignments radically) and a barbarian loses his rage if he becomes lawful. But monk can become choatic and maintains the monk abilities he had up to that point.

MC in 3.5 Became the rulemonger and munchkin heaven. Nothing like having 9th lvl arcane, 9th level divine, and 6th lvl bard abilities. Or getting a 25 HD dragon as your halflings mount.

Discussion is in regards to MC though. I know there are ways for those things to happen but they have nothing specifically to do with MCing aside from paly and monk. Even those have go arounds in PnP.

Just read the OP and replied, many things had been said.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Ok, I will admit that most of my PnP experience was back with D&D 2.0, where PureClass was heavily "encouraged" (and I thought that even 3.x had some class abilities/spell casting/etc that were lost if you left your class, such as Paladin, or the fact that a Cleric can cast spells while wielding an edged weapon, etc)... but my point is that the DDO implementation, especially due to the Enhancement System, will force most, if not all, characters into Multi Classing. The Diminishing Returns and exorbitant costs of the Enhancements, unless completely new Enhancements are added at high-levels for each class, will completely discourage any reason to continue pure. Even the Casters, will eventually look to multiclass for the last few levels, as they will no longer gain new spell levels (but they will gain a few new spell slots), thus giving no reason for Pure Classes. I am not saying or implying that I am a "purist" for the classes, as most of my characters are Multi Classed themselves... but the point is that the current direction of the game is looking like it will basically force almost every class into having to multi class, or else become sub-par.

I am not espousing one way over another, but I am trying to say that there is a growing imbalance within the system, as it stands. I think that there should be good rewards or reasons to stay Pure Classed over Multi-Classing, in order to make it an actual merit-based decision, instead of a "purist mentality" vs. the rewards of multi-classing. The main point is there is really no benefit to staying Pure Class, and every benefit to Multi-Classing. Maybe I'm totally off-base here and no one really agrees that this is a problem... I dunno... I was just trying to voice a concern.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

My take on all the pure class vs. MC stuff:

1) DDO has actually done a good job giving people reasons to stay pure, much more than PnP under 3.5. In PnP, while there are pure class builds that are quite effective, I think it is safe to say that a MC built to the same purpose will just about always be more effective.
2) DDO enhancements are a limited -- albeit very limited -- implementation of prestige classes. The idea that a lvl 14 Barb with Power Rage 4 is not the equivalent of a multi-classed Barb with some mix of prestige classes is actually incorrect.
3) The issue is that not all DDO enhancements are created equal. Clearly, from a min/maxer POV, there are certain sets that are more effective than others even after you exclude the fact that some synergies "naturally" lead you to default to certain combinations.
4) XP penalties are a bad idea IMO. I don't want to run more of the same old quests to make up for my XP penalty.

That said, I think the enhancements for Rangers and Paladins need to be reevaluated and improved while all races should be brought up to the same "power" as dwarves.

I think your last point is a VERY valid one... Rangers and Paladins have really gotten the "shaft" when it comes to Enhancements, and Dwarves are still so uber-over-powered compared to the other races. Yes, Humans get their HV, Bonus Feat, and Extra Skill Point, but that is still nothing compared to Racial Tactics, Armor Mastery, Toughness, and the Dwarven +vs Spells. I agree fully that the Racial Enhancements are completely imbalanced, and need to be revised, as the Dwarf overpowers all, and this is pretty much agreed universally. As for the Classes, I pretty much stopped playing my ranger after mod 3.3 in disgust over the Enhancement options... everything is so slanted vs. FE's, and nothing much else. Ok, I can be Super-Duper-Uber vs. my FE, but what about all the other mobs in the game? Where is the +Archery Enhancements, or +TWF, or something that is useful in all circumstances, like Fighters and Barbs get? And Paladins, while not quite as bad, still isn't great... Paladins get all the Defensive Feats (Bulwark, Resistance, LoH, etc), but other than Extra Smite Evil, where is the Offense? I know there needs to be a balance in Paladin vs. Fighter but there need to be some Offensive-Enhancements for the Paladin?

We know that Rangers are finally getting some "Specialty Enhancements" a.k.a. mini-PrC's, and they need it... but so do Paladins. And please don't tell me that the Silver Flame and Soverign Host are supposed to be it for the Paladin... Come on, +1 To Hit with a Longsword or a Longbow? Let's be real, the Soverign Host Faith is for Elven Paladins (as they get the Racial bonus to Longswords too), and how many Bow-wielding Paladins have you ever seen? Now the Tier-2 of these have some cool effects, but what are they, once every 20 minutes? that is not at all equal to the Rogue Specialties like WotM, or the Bard's Spellsinger/Warchanter/Virtuoso. Each of the other "Specialty Enhancements" have centered around powering up the core abilities of the class: Rogue Skills or Sneak Attacks, Bard Casting/Buffs/Songs, but the Paladin gets +1 to hit on one of 2 weapons, and a once-every-20-minute clicky, and these are shared with Clerics?

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Sigh,

I guess no one really cares about Pure Classes anymore.

[MysticTheurge]

Sigh,

I guess no one really cares about Pure Classes anymore.

Not for about two, soon to be three, major revisions of the D&D rules.

At some point, someone realized that all those annoying restrictions weren't really conducive to fun gameplay.

I still have trouble figuring out why so many DDO players seem to have such a big hang up about it. Play what you want. Let other people play what they want.

[Yaga_Nub]

Not for about two, soon to be three, major revisions of the D&D rules.

At some point, someone realized that all those annoying restrictions weren't really conducive to fun gameplay.

I still have trouble figuring out why so many DDO players seem to have such a big hang up about it. Play what you want. Let other people play what they want.

I want to play a young gold dragon bard and I want my instrument to be the size of a small house.

I'd be able to make my own pyrotechnic show to start off each performance!

[MysticTheurge]

I want to play a young gold dragon bard and I want my instrument to be the size of a small house.

I'd be able to make my own pyrotechnic show to start off each performance!

And you know what. D&D 3.5 lets you do this. If you and your DM and your whole group want to.

It just sets the rules for what doing it involves.

[Dwolf]

Granted that we don't really know what new Feats and Enhancements are coming in Mod 6 yet, but we know a little bit...


2)Rangers: After either Ranger 11, 13, 15 (Rng 11 for the Combat Feats: PS, IPS, GTWF; Ranger 13 for the highest-level FE Enhancements; Ranger 15 for Level 4 Spells and the 4th FE), there is little reason left to continue Ranger. The Ranger’s Class ability/feat progression show Hide in Plain Sight @ 17 (which, I can’t see how could actually work in DDO, as hide/sneak will not lose agro), and a 5th FE @ 20. There are no other Combat Feats auto-granted per the SRD, nor are there any higher-level spells for Rangers, so there is little reason to continue Ranger. Enhancement wise, the Ranger’s Enhancements are not as expensive as the Fighter or Paladin’s, but have diminishing returns (5AP for an additional +1 To Hit or Damage vs. FE)

Here's a thought. Rangers with hide in plain sight can range to their heart's content without drawing aggro - or give them a really substantial reduction on the aggro they draw. From the mob's point of view it would be like they're getting hit out of no where, but since they're dealing with opponents they can see they generally don't have time to figure out what's going on.

You could also allow for an always - on concealment bonus with its 20% miss chance. This would be like always being blurred. Add enhancements that allow that always-on concealment to scale up, and that would be a very attractive reason to try for your level 17 ranger.

I admit to not having taken the time to really think it all through so maybe there are flaws there - on the other hand maybe there's the kernal of something ultimately useable too.

[Taerdra]

Sigh,

I guess no one really cares about Pure Classes anymore.

Because of the enhancement system, I would argue there are no "pure" builds in DDO. Calling them "pure" is a misnomer of the DDO system.

[nbhs275]

I want to play a young gold dragon bard and I want my instrument to be the size of a small house.

I'd be able to make my own pyrotechnic show to start off each performance!

Though after HD and ECL you only get one level of bard. WOOHOO! I played with a guy who did that kind of stuff, so he never did more then look cool and swing a sword. While everyone else got cool feats and spells to play around with.

[Kalanth]

Clerics could lose their spells if their god dies, or if they lose the faith(ie change alignments radically) and a barbarian loses his rage if he becomes lawful. But monk can become choatic and maintains the monk abilities he had up to that point.

MC in 3.5 Became the rulemonger and munchkin heaven. Nothing like having 9th lvl arcane, 9th level divine, and 6th lvl bard abilities. Or getting a 25 HD dragon as your halflings mount.

Ah, but the Cleric loosing their spells was given a bit of a twist in Eberron. It was stated in the Eberron Campaign Setting that a cleric does not need a god, nor even faith, to have access to Cleric spells. A cleric can be almost like a generalist wizard in that sense, and be able to pick any domains. I would have to crack open the book for more specifics, but Eberron is great at making sure all you knew and loved before got a heavy coat of grey paint slapped on it.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

PnP 2nd addition always encouraged pureclass. 3.5 D&D encouraged you to do w/e you wanted.

AD&D made multiclassing very restrictive. Funny how things have shifted....

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Ah, but the Cleric loosing their spells was given a bit of a twist in Eberron. It was stated in the Eberron Campaign Setting that a cleric does not need a god, nor even faith, to have access to Cleric spells. A cleric can be almost like a generalist wizard in that sense, and be able to pick any domains. I would have to crack open the book for more specifics, but Eberron is great at making sure all you knew and loved before got a heavy coat of grey paint slapped on it.

That's pre eberon, its in the 3.0 Core rules.

And I don't recall the need to pick a specific god in the first D&D editions either.