Best DPS Rogue Build Ever!

[Cold_Stele]

Best DPS Rogue build ever is going to be... pure Rogue right the way up to 16th level (I think).

can someone help me out with the BAB progression here? Superior TWF looks like it's gonna be pretty uber (proposed 2 extra attacks instead of just 1 extra) and probably available at BAB 16.

Pure Rogues won't be able to get it (BAB 15 at 20th level).

Neither, I think, will the existing 4 melee/10 Rogues (they hit BAB 16 when they get to 20th level, but no feat available). They'll have to further dilute their Rogue levels with another 2 of Fighter.

So I'm thinking - go 16 levels of Rogue then wait to see what pure Rogue to 20 has to offer (you may even have to hold off leveling when the cap raises to 18). If pure rogue all the way has nothing to offer then take the last 4 in Fighter and pick up your STWF at 20.

What do you guys think? Are my numbers off?

[EinarMal]

Go Rogue 19/Fighter 1 and take the fighter level at 20 (you will have 15 BAB). You don't need four levels of fighter just the last one. That gives you full sneak attack progression and superior two weapon fighting. From what I hear it will require BAB 15 not BAB 16.

[Cold_Stele]

**** you're right, I thought my BAB calculations were off.

I still think my other calculations are right though, a multi-class DPS Rogue (10 Rogue/4 melee) will have a BAB of 14 at 18th level. They're gonna have to take two more Ftr levels!

PURE ROGUES FTW!!!

[EinarMal]

**** you're right, I thought my BAB calculations were off.

I still think my other calculations are right though, a multi-class DPS Rogue (10 Rogue/4 melee) will have a BAB of 14 at 18th level. They're gonna have to take two more Ftr levels!

PURE ROGUES FTW!!!

Yeah if you already burned your fighter levels that will hurt when the cap goes to 20. You pretty much *have* to take the fighter level or levels very late in order to take the feat.

[Sutek]

Yeah if you already burned your fighter levels that will hurt when the cap goes to 20. You pretty much *have* to take the fighter level or levels very late in order to take the feat.

Can't you just use fred to fix your feats?

[Borror0]

Yeah if you already burned your fighter levels that will hurt when the cap goes to 20. You pretty much *have* to take the fighter level or levels very late in order to take the feat.

You know, if they ever add "Bonus Feat" to rogues speical feats, then if you took only a level of rogue, you'll get a bonus feat at level 20 (level 19 rogue).

So, that 10/4 rogue will get STWF at level 20, or level 16 rogue.

That is assuming they do fix that thing!!

Can't you just use fred to fix your feats?

No. Fred will let you take a feat you could take at that level. Since you didn't have the BAB for it, you won't be able to take it.

[Cold_Stele]

From what I hear it will require BAB 15 not BAB 16.

Anyone have any firm info on the BAB requirement for STWF?

I know STWF isn't PnP, but the TWF BAB progression is every 5 levels at 1, 6 and 11 which would suggest 16, but... who knows?

Anyone able to clarify?

[Borror0]

Anyone have any firm info on the BAB requirement for STWF?

I know STWF isn't PnP, but the TWF BAB progression is every 5 levels at 1, 6 and 11 which would suggest 16, but... who knows?

Anyone able to clarify?

Well, logicly, it's 6 and 11 in PnP because you get another attack at 6 and 11... in PnP¨. If they would follow that logic here, it should be BAB 5 and 10... So, maybe they will apply the "true" logic behind it and place it BAB 15... or, they could follow the "pattern" and place it at BAB 16.

However, I remember of a Dev post, long ago, that said that they'll probably put it at BAB 15 to not **** off the true rogue too much. In both cases, it does not affect you. A lv 16 rogue will have a BAB 12, so, by taking 4 levels of fighter between level 16 and 20, you'd have 16 BAB allowing you to take STWF.

[cforce]

Sidestepping the build plan for a moment and going back to the original post, I'd also like to point out that if by "Best DPS Rogue Build" you want the *highest* DPS build, that's probably somewhere in the STR-based THF space. TWF doesn't make you do any more Sneak Attack damage than THF (see overdamage section in here for a good explanation of why), and the peak damage (outside of sneak attack) from a good THF build is usually a bit over that of a good TWF build. I like some of the TWF possibilities a lot -- take away only a small bit of damage to include some debuff (cursespewer in off-hand, for example), or dual-wield Wounding Puncturers if you happen to have great uber-equipment. But if you really want to be king of the DPS space, you might want to look at a STR-based build with multiple THF feats.

[Cold_Stele]

Sidestepping the build plan for a moment and going back to the original post, I'd also like to point out that if by "Best DPS Rogue Build" you want the *highest* DPS build, that's probably somewhere in the STR-based THF space.

Sorry if you've taken me a little too literally cforce, that's probably my fault for trying to go for an eye catching, tongue in cheek and possibly evn contentious title.

The point of the thread really was about pure Rogues vs multi-classed at the end game. I'll do some proper calculations later when I get time but the BAB for STWF and the debatable implementation of bonus feats could give pures a distinct advantage over the others...

[QuantumFX]

Anyone have any firm info on the BAB requirement for STWF?

I know STWF isn't PnP, but the TWF BAB progression is every 5 levels at 1, 6 and 11 which would suggest 16, but... who knows?

Anyone able to clarify?

Here you go: CLICK HERE

What's cool is that if our number of attacks stops at level 20, like it does in P&P, then a 19 Rogue/1 Fighter won't need to burn an epic feat to max out the TWF chain.

[GuitarHero]

Sidestepping the build plan for a moment and going back to the original post, I'd also like to point out that if by "Best DPS Rogue Build" you want the *highest* DPS build, that's probably somewhere in the STR-based THF space. TWF doesn't make you do any more Sneak Attack damage than THF (see overdamage section in here for a good explanation of why), and the peak damage (outside of sneak attack) from a good THF build is usually a bit over that of a good TWF build. I like some of the TWF possibilities a lot -- take away only a small bit of damage to include some debuff (cursespewer in off-hand, for example), or dual-wield Wounding Puncturers if you happen to have great uber-equipment. But if you really want to be king of the DPS space, you might want to look at a STR-based build with multiple THF feats.

a side note on that "overdamage" that should be noted, Subtle backstabber can vault the overall damage pretty high, and allowing more damage before hitting the "overdamage" mark. Also, chosing your targets, and knowing your own ability can help to switch targets before reaching this threshold, allowing you to consistantly deal maximum damage. Though this second part is less a numbers crunch and more an instinct thing, its vital to playing a DPS rogue. Also, a deception weapon in an offhand, or even better, Treason, can also vault these numbers way beyond this humble weapon ability should be expected to.