The Basic Paladin Build Guide v1.2

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to make this resource.

I just renewed my subscription and had played the game before "by ear".
When I checked out the character that I achieved Drow with, he was level 6
and he had 2 +STR items, 2 +Wis items, and 2 Sacred items that he was wearing.
I didnt know that they didnt stack!

I dont enjoy reducing the game down to numbers and equations, but had to get a quick
education on the game, and I came here.

Now I have a loose version of your Evasion Paladin in progress. I dont have a 32 point build or tomes, but he survives whole quests, helps the party, and is a heck of a lot of fun to play.

You made that a lot easier and less time consuming with this resource.

Thank you for your post. I do appreciate when people find it useful and helpful to their playing experience.
Don't worry about not having 32-points builds or Drow... the build will still work quite well.

Keep in mind that an Evasion Paladin will take a little while to come into his own... once you get your Evasion, you get a nice little power jump... and once you get your UMD online for Rezzing and other neat tricks (and have the plat to properly equip him), then he really shines.

I think this reminds me that maybe I need to address "proper stocking" of this type of build.... hrmmm

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Lots of updates throughout the entire Build Guide. All new updates are in YELLOW.

Updates include:
-Dragonmark Discussion for all races
-Full "Break Point" Chart for all 9 Classes for all 14 Levels
-AC Discussion added
-Notes on using my builds without Tomes & +6 Stat Items


I am probably going to take all of this offline here in the coming weeks to rewrite it all from scratch and repost the guide in it's entirety.
Now would be a great time for any suggestions/ideas/comments for inclusion in the 1.3 (or maybe 2.0) Version of the guide.

New Build Ideas are welcome (but need to be significantly different focus than existing builds)

Thanks,
Dworkin

[Shade]

DPS:
#1 - Barbarian
#2 - Fighter
#3 - Paladin (and just barely behind the Fighter)

AC:
#1 - Fighter
#2 - Paladin
#3 - Barbarian (a VERY distant 3rd)

Saves:
#1 - Paladin
#2 - Fighter
#3 - Barbarian (Will surpass Fighter on Will Saves when raging)

These don't make any sense - first you need to distinguish between a good barbarian (always raged) and a **** one (doesn't rage).. Yet you always give the barbarian third place regardless.

DPS - yep.

AC -
If we assume no feats, no raging
Barbarian wins - +6 ac for uncanny dodge, and higher base dex as they wear medium armor (tho you only need 3 for mfp)
If we add feats, the only 2 that matter are combat exp and dodge - barbarian can take both - again barbarian wins.
Or the perma raged barbarian, he gets -2 AC behind the fighter, but +6 for 2:00 with no cooldown... Hardly "(a VERY distant 3rd)"
My barbarian gets a fully buffed ac of over 60 - better then most fighters and thats fully raged with no ac feats.

So without explanation - this category isn't really fair.

Saves -
No feats - Barbarian gets +6 reflex for uncanny dodge, and generally higher con then a fighter for better fort saves, will would be equal, as well as far superior trap saves and DR that applies to traps.
All save feats - again barbarians can take these too. So no difference there, barbarian still wins.
Perma raged - +9 con for +4 fortitude save, and up to +10 will saves leaves fighters a VERY distant 3rd

So bump barbarian up to 2nd for that one, no questions asked.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Not to split hairs here, Shade, but let's talk about DPS/AC/Saves without clickies, and buffs, and boosts. Rage is ok, as it a critical part of the Barbarian... and yes, there are Paladins who can out-DPS Fighters, and Barbarians that can tip 60 AC for a few seconds here and there... but the Normal Barbarian is going to have a lower AC than a Fighter (heck, the "rage" nowadays is Robe-Wearing Barbarians anyways... pu intended).

But your normal Barbarian will have a lot lower Standing, Unbuffed, UnBoosted (or "BAC" - Beholder Armor Class, as it has been dubbed in another post) than your average Fighter. Most Barbarians build for undisputed DPS, and ignore AC. Yes, there are exceptions, but we are talking about general rules. Sure, I can build a Barbarian to have a higher "BAC" than a Fighter if I wanted to... but that is not the "Normal" or "Template" build.

Now, as for saves, I probably should have clarified. Barbarians usually have better Reflex and Fort saves, but it is the Will Save that I was referring to (as most of the more probematic saves in fights is Will save, such as Greater Command, Hold Person, etc)... and there, a Barbarian is usually going to be a lower standing Will Save than a Fighter... but, as I stated, when Raging, the Barbarian is usually higher in Will Save than the Fighter.

Look, while I understand that anyone can build a specific twinked-out-uber-l00ted build to excel in all 3 categories, I am taking a top-down approach of what are the "general and expected" for each class. Barbs are #1 DPS, but trade off with lower AC and lower base (non-raged) saves. Fighters are #1 AC, and good DPS, with moderat Saves. Paladins are #1 Saves, with good AC and decent DPS... that's the way the 3 classes have ALWAYS been in D&D.

These don't make any sense - first you need to distinguish between a good barbarian (always raged) and a **** one (doesn't rage).. Yet you always give the barbarian third place regardless.

DPS - yep.

AC -
If we assume no feats, no raging
Barbarian wins - +6 ac for uncanny dodge, and higher base dex as they wear medium armor (tho you only need 3 for mfp)
If we add feats, the only 2 that matter are combat exp and dodge - barbarian can take both - again barbarian wins.
Or the perma raged barbarian, he gets -2 AC behind the fighter, but +6 for 2:00 with no cooldown... Hardly "(a VERY distant 3rd)"
My barbarian gets a fully buffed ac of over 60 - better then most fighters and thats fully raged with no ac feats.

So without explanation - this category isn't really fair.

Saves -
No feats - Barbarian gets +6 reflex for uncanny dodge, and generally higher con then a fighter for better fort saves, will would be equal, as well as far superior trap saves and DR that applies to traps.
All save feats - again barbarians can take these too. So no difference there, barbarian still wins.
Perma raged - +9 con for +4 fortitude save, and up to +10 will saves leaves fighters a VERY distant 3rd

So bump barbarian up to 2nd for that one, no questions asked.

[Blackwatch]

You asked for any build requests or spots to touch on in your next update, and might I suggest one, that I hope hasn't been overdone. (searching the boards doesn't yield a lot on this)

non 32 build point suggestions.

which stats to tank and what races to work with as a result... that kinda deal. Not whole new builds, just a little blurb that gives thoughts for those of us that haven't unlocked that yet.

Thanks for all the great work.
Blackwatch

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

You asked for any build requests or spots to touch on in your next update, and might I suggest one, that I hope hasn't been overdone. (searching the boards doesn't yield a lot on this)

non 32 build point suggestions.

which stats to tank and what races to work with as a result... that kinda deal. Not whole new builds, just a little blurb that gives thoughts for those of us that haven't unlocked that yet.

Thanks for all the great work.
Blackwatch

Great Suggestion!
I'll try to include 28-point starting stats for the builds in the next update.

I'm also planning on clarifying the "Template" nature of the builds, especially the disclaimer on the +1 Tome & +6 Stat Items. I know that many people don't have these items, and want to build without. I have a disclaimer already, but I know it needs to be clarified.

And I like the idea of more on the various classes, as to which lend themselves to what role more... There are always exceptions, and I have tried to remain class-neutral, but you are right that certain classes tend to lend themselves better to certain roles.

Thanks for the input... anyone else?

[arminius]

You asked for any build requests or spots to touch on in your next update, and might I suggest one, that I hope hasn't been overdone. (searching the boards doesn't yield a lot on this)

non 32 build point suggestions.

which stats to tank and what races to work with as a result... that kinda deal. Not whole new builds, just a little blurb that gives thoughts for those of us that haven't unlocked that yet.

Thanks for all the great work.
Blackwatch

I'm not Dworkin but I've built a lot of paladins. In my experience, for a 28 point build, the stat that takes the hit is Con. The stats are just spread too thin otherwise.

Strength: You can't. Required to perform the role that everyone expects of you--hitting stuff.
Dexterity: You can't. Already really low, any lower and serious penalties kick in.
Intelligence: You can't. Already at the bare minimum one can make it (unless you go with Combat Expertise, in which case you still can't lower it because you need it for Combat Expertise).
Wisdom: You can't, if you want to use any spells. 14 Wisdom is required for the highest Paladin spells. You could get away with a 10 start if you wanted to push it, but I prefer not to.
Charisma: You can't. Charisma and the benefits one gets from it is what makes a Paladin different from a gimped, low-feat Fighter who can use Cure Serious Wounds wands. Lower Charisma, and that's what you end up with.

That leaves Constitution. Obviously, it is one of the most important stats to any character. It is unfortunate to lower it, but Paladins are simply stretched super thin when it comes to stats. At level 14, the difference amounts to 2 Fortitude save points and 28 hit points. Not the end of the world.

Whether 28 or 32 pointer, make sure you have at least 1 Toughness feat, and take all the Toughness enhancements. This doesn't make up for the loss, since you'd do it anyway. But without the Con and the Toughness? You'd be talking serious hit point loss.

I have 28 and 32 point Paladins, and performance-wise, an observer really couldn't tell the difference.

_

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

I'm not Dworkin but I've built a lot of paladins. In my experience, for a 28 point build, the stat that takes the hit is Con. The stats are just spread too thin otherwise.

Strength: You can't. Required to perform the role that everyone expects of you--hitting stuff.
Dexterity: You can't. Already really low, any lower and serious penalties kick in.
Intelligence: You can't. Already at the bare minimum one can make it (unless you go with Combat Expertise, in which case you still can't lower it because you need it for Combat Expertise).
Wisdom: You can't, if you want to use any spells. 14 Wisdom is required for the highest Paladin spells. You could get away with a 10 start if you wanted to push it, but I prefer not to.
Charisma: You can't. Charisma and the benefits one gets from it is what makes a Paladin different from a gimped, low-feat Fighter who can use Cure Serious Wounds wands. Lower Charisma, and that's what you end up with.

That leaves Constitution. Obviously, it is one of the most important stats to any character. It is unfortunate to lower it, but Paladins are simply stretched super thin when it comes to stats. At level 14, the difference amounts to 2 Fortitude save points and 28 hit points. Not the end of the world.

Whether 28 or 32 pointer, make sure you have at least 1 Toughness feat, and take all the Toughness enhancements. This doesn't make up for the loss, since you'd do it anyway. But without the Con and the Toughness? You'd be talking serious hit point loss.

I have 28 and 32 point Paladins, and performance-wise, an observer really couldn't tell the difference.

_

I'll agree... to a point.

Some of it depends on the Race.

For a Human Paladin, dropping from 17 to 16 starting STR isn't that big a deal, as Human Adaptability can makeup that one point (or in almost any of the stats).

For the other races, a little play in the Racial Stat of choice is often an easy answer.

And Charisma... while it is important, in the long run, as long as you are at least 20 Charisma, I think that it becomes less important in the long run. I have a 28 Charisma Paladin, and a 22 Charisma Paladin, and while the bigger LoH is really nice, the few points of Saves aren't THAT big of a deal... especially as neither of them wears a Resistance Item, and I still only Fail my Saves on 1's (for 98% of the current content).

But a lot also depends on the Build. For an Intimitank, Con can't be sacrificed, where Charisma can... for a Evasion Paladin, you can't sacrifice Dex unless you are Elf or Drow, and those 2 you really can't sacrifice Con anyways, as it starts so low... but a Dwarven or Warforged Paladin can certainly sacrifice a few points of Con (especially the Dwarf).

So I won't say it's a hard and fast rule... but each build type can sacrifice a stat somewhere and make out ok... you just need to balance the Role and the Race together, as well as the Class Breakdown (for MultiClass).

[rimble]

Strength: You can't. Required to perform the role that everyone expects of you--hitting stuff.
Dexterity: You can't. Already really low, any lower and serious penalties kick in.
Intelligence: You can't. Already at the bare minimum one can make it (unless you go with Combat Expertise, in which case you still can't lower it because you need it for Combat Expertise).
Wisdom: You can't, if you want to use any spells. 14 Wisdom is required for the highest Paladin spells. You could get away with a 10 start if you wanted to push it, but I prefer not to.
Charisma: You can't. Charisma and the benefits one gets from it is what makes a Paladin different from a gimped, low-feat Fighter who can use Cure Serious Wounds wands. Lower Charisma, and that's what you end up with.

Wisdom is an excellent stat to tank for a 28pt build, especially Human. You only ever need a 14, bonus spell points from higher Wisdom are insignificant. Start with a 10 if you want things a little easier, but any higher is pointless. Like Dworkin said, though, it's so hard to pin down, depending on race.

[miceelf88]

Please don't forget about halflings in your fully integrated new posting of this manual. For example, in the current version, you don't have a conversion from the basic human paladin to halfling, although you do for every other race- you kindly added it later, but don't forget to include it. I have a halfling that for both dedicated party reasons and role playing reasons needs to have some healing capacity AND tankage capacity. I have had a lot of trouble finding a decent utility build for halfling pallies (or indeed for halfling pallies of any sort)- not your problem or fault of course, and the guide has still been a godsend for me, but a little more about halfling pallies would be appreciated.

:-)

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Please don't forget about halflings in your fully integrated new posting of this manual. For example, in the current version, you don't have a conversion from the basic human paladin to halfling, although you do for every other race- you kindly added it later, but don't forget to include it. I have a halfling that for both dedicated party reasons and role playing reasons needs to have some healing capacity AND tankage capacity. I have had a lot of trouble finding a decent utility build for halfling pallies (or indeed for halfling pallies of any sort)- not your problem or fault of course, and the guide has still been a godsend for me, but a little more about halfling pallies would be appreciated.

:-)

I am currently re-working the entire Paladin Build Guide, into a Version 2.0. I did notice that I forgot a Halfling conversion for them, but in the interim, I would use the Elf starting Stats and Feats. The only real problem for Halflings is that they do not get a favored melee weapon, and throwing weapons just don't work well in DDO... so I would suggest either fitting in Khopesh, or just go with whatever slashing weapon you can find plenty of. I have also been playing with the idea of a Halfling Pally/Fighter, leveraging their Dex and +1 AC & To Hit, and going with a Two-Handed AC-Tank Halfling. I figured out how to make a 2HF Dwarf that can hit 50-52 AC while going THF... but I'm not sure if I can get the same results with any other Race (that darn DAM keeps being a problem).

[Uproar]

Would sure be nice if someone updated this thread to include Monks and the level 17-20 breakpoints.

[Jondallar]

Look, while I understand that anyone can build a specific twinked-out-uber-l00ted build to excel in all 3 categories, I am taking a top-down approach of what are the "general and expected" for each class.

This build you speak of is called the Tempest ranger.

I havent seen Dworkin on in months. I suggest someone start a new thread if they wish to see the info carried on and updated.

[spifflove]

What would a 18 paladin/2 rogue human Defender look like?

Im thinking
1. Tower shield (does that negate evasion?) 1. Toughness
3. CE
6. dodge
9. Improved crit
12-18 dragonmark of sentinel

[Comfortably]

lvl6 atm, going 20 lvls of palain with cap raise, Dwarf TWF str build(using DA),ESII or III DF,DMII,DSII, Extended Zeal....

Anyhting out there for a paladin that has better DPS?

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Yeah, Jond, you are right... I haven't been on in months. Kinda got completely burned out right around Mod 8, played a Monk to L11, got disgusted, and have been on an extended break from DDO.

I would love to see someone pickup the torch on the Paladin Build Guide. I'll gladly give you all my source materials (I actually have everything written in MS Word, and a custom build template Excel sheet for computations)... including a number of builds I never posted here. I haven't kept as much up as I wish I could have, but without the joy in playing, it has been hard.

I'm thinking of coming back when (if) Mod 9 hits, to see if I can get back into the game.

Yes, the 2 Monk Splash changes the game TREMENDOUSLY, as does the new PrE's coming. The Splits become even more difficult to work out the balancing point, and I think in some ways we need to wait and see what the WoP nerf really brings. I have heard the noise coming out of Lamannia, but I fear that not enough of the population is represented there to really see the full impact... but I could be wrong.

Hope to see you all in StormReach again soon, and I haven't quit (yet), so you can't have my stuff!

[SteeleTrueheart]

Let me know and I may take over.

[kormasta]

I have a 16 Human Pally, made before my 32 point build was possible. Up to this point I have tried to get self-sufficient (26 Cha, 24 Str, 24 Con, 397 HP, 43 AC), but now am trying to fill a new roll as an intimitank. This was primarily brought on as we saw the gap for running Hound.

So I swapped out a lot of my offensive feats for intimidation skills, keeping dwarven battle axe and thus far power attack. As we get ready for level 20, I was thinking about taking it a step further, and develop it into more of a puller/evasion type of intimitank. I was thinking if I go +2 rogue and +2 fighter, I would get some additional needed feats, evasion, higher reflex saves on top of already high saves, fearless, immunities, etc.

Anyone have any thoughts on that? I know I am lacking a bunch of information, and could post it if needed. I see the combos in here with the rogue for skills, rogue for UMD, and pally fighter for intimitank. But with the evasion, I would think that being able to negate a LOT of damage from casters AND melee I might be able to to really do well in this role. The capstone did not seem as imperative at this point.

Thoughts?

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

I have a 16 Human Pally, made before my 32 point build was possible. Up to this point I have tried to get self-sufficient (26 Cha, 24 Str, 24 Con, 397 HP, 43 AC), but now am trying to fill a new roll as an intimitank. This was primarily brought on as we saw the gap for running Hound.

So I swapped out a lot of my offensive feats for intimidation skills, keeping dwarven battle axe and thus far power attack. As we get ready for level 20, I was thinking about taking it a step further, and develop it into more of a puller/evasion type of intimitank. I was thinking if I go +2 rogue and +2 fighter, I would get some additional needed feats, evasion, higher reflex saves on top of already high saves, fearless, immunities, etc.

Anyone have any thoughts on that? I know I am lacking a bunch of information, and could post it if needed. I see the combos in here with the rogue for skills, rogue for UMD, and pally fighter for intimitank. But with the evasion, I would think that being able to negate a LOT of damage from casters AND melee I might be able to to really do well in this role. The capstone did not seem as imperative at this point.

Thoughts?

It id difficult to say without a full break-out of all your stats and gear... but assuming you have a decent starting Dex (enough to get to 20 or 22 Dex with a +6 item), and you have access to, or are willing to grind for the gear... then I think you may have some options here.

Things to consider:
#1 - Evasion means light armor, so +5 Mithral Breastplate or KDS or BP of Vol, etc

#2 - 43 AC is nowhere near what you will need. You need at least +10/+12 more AC to really start hitting the AC you will need. 53/55 AC is really where things start to shine. There are only a few ways to get there... such as Chattering Ring, GreenSteel +4 AC, +5 MTS, etc.

#3 - While I am a big proponent of Evasion Paladins, I am concerned that L16 might be a bit late to specialize into 2 different things. I think you need to sit down and figure the feats and skill points carefully, because trying to go Evasion/UMD and Intimidate might be too much this late in the game. But it depends on where your exisiting Feats and Skills and items are.

#4 - I am curious why as a Human Paladin you are using Dwarven Axes? Dwarven Pallys certainly should go DA, but if you are Human, then either use the Feat for Khopesh, or save the feat and go Rapiers! Again, a bit depends on what gear you have, and where you might have sunk your Shroud Green Steel stuffs.... but something to consider.


Overall, my "generic" thoughts for a L16 Pure Human Paladin who wants to go this route are:
1) Count up the Skill Points you need in L17-L20, and figure out if you can max Intimidate and UMD, or just one. Then choose.
2) If you can't max UMD (which I have doubt about), then consider 2 Monk instead of 2 Rogue for Evasion + Wis Bonus to AC + 1 Monk AC
3) Look at your Feats carefully... I would probably drop Dwarven Axe and either go Khopesh, or use the Feat for something else and go Rapier. With good Burstin Rapiers (not even Green Steel), you should be able to maintain Aggro.
4) Count up the number of high-end items you will need to hit 53/55 BAC (Beholder-AC) and see if that is worth it to you.

Feats to consider (in no particular order):
Combat Expertise
IC: Piercing/Slashing
SF: Intimidate
Bullheaded
SF: UMD
Dodge
Power Attack
Force of Personality

[kormasta]

Here is a good rundown of Mysty.

Str - 24 (+6 Str belt, +1 tome)
Dex - 18 (+5 gloves, +1 tome)
Con - 22 (+6 neck and using +1 tome)
Int - 8 (have +6 goggles if I need it)
Wis - 14 (+2 wisdom)
Cha - 26 (+2 tome, +6 cloak, +4 enhancements)

AC- 38 (Swapped out +5 FP for +5 Breastplate)
HP- 364 (Intimidate mode), 382 (toughness helm). I am 49 patron from level 2 patron in the twelve.
Spell Points: 222, 322 out of Intimidate mode (pearl)
Fort 29
Ref 24
Will 26

ENHANCEMENTS

Adaptability Cha I
Versatility IV
Improved Recovery II
Resistance of Good II
Lay on Hands III
Racial Toughness II
Diplomacy III
Charisma III
Toughness IV

FEATS
Force of Personality
Exotic Weapon: Dwarven Axe
Skill: Intimidate
Sentinel Dragonmark
Power Attack
Toughness
Bullheaded


Now, in response to the idea, I do not really care much for the UMD. If I can gget something out of that, awesome, but otherwise, never been a driving force of mine. I went with the dwarven axe because many of my weapons (vorpals, smiting, transmuting, shattermantle, and banes) are all dwarven battle axes. I used to also have Bastard Swords for flavor, but dumped that feat for intimidate.

Now I have an Intimidate skill of 39 with a +13 helm and GH. I can boost to 44, and hopefully will have a +15 before too long. I am also going the route of 2 HS with my greensteel, as in many of those cases I am just trying to get DPS out there.

Answering directly the 4 statements.....

#1 I have mithral now, so that is done.
#2 I have seen that 50 AC means squat in the higher level game, so based on the idea that I am taking damage regardless, I am looking for other means of mitigation (hence my evasion idea).
#3 I agree that this is late in the game, but being that we're about to get 4 levels and not really caring that much about UMD, I thought that evasion might be an intersting boost with my saves and now respec'ed feats/enhancements.
#4 Dwarven axes have the x3 multiplier, I have a lot of those weapons (easier to come by) and I think the speed of the weapon is solid, so I haven't attempted to change.

As for the feats, some great ideas there. I avoided the expertise as my Str is higher. My focus going to intimitank I avoided the DPS feats like IC.

Thanks again for your thoughts and feedback!