Improved/greater paladin

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

I had a paladin, I liked running her...but it did seem that she got less useful over time.
She couldn't intimidate well. Seemed fighters could always command greater agro.
She didn't DPS well.
She had trouble.

Maybe it was my build.

I was wondering if there was any way to improve them through the levels without taking all the glory (wait...paladins are all about the glory) away from the Fighters and the barbs.

Honestly, I thought of her as a back up healer, rather than a tank. Which saddened me.

Diplomacy. This skill needs some work. Use it and the MOBs attack someone else?
Shouldn't a high enough diplomacy actually make a MOB less likely to attack your party and, in fact, convince them to fight with you...Think about the times we use it to convince Giants to give us their keys or other MOBs not attack. Couldn't this work? Like suggestion...Acquire Henchling?

Smite...ok.
This is well used by many but little used by me. Finding the hot bar and clicking on it always seemed too hard to remember (must have used INT as a dump stat...lol.) What if their confirmed crit actually produced a smite evil result?
Bad Idea?

Armor. Paladins are trained for heavy armor, they live in it. they sleep in it...they polish it till it gleams! Appearance is everything. Shouldn't their background and training allow---say an enhancement that shows their superior armor mastery, A + to armor class or a minus to armor penalty? Just because they are pali?
I know...I make little sense.

I would like to play a Paladin again, but after 12th level she seemed to be readily replaced by fighters and barbs, someone with the strength to maintain agro, swiftly kill and take damage. Sure, disease immunity, fear immunity...self healing/buffing capability...

But a holy knight should still be a force to be reckoned with.

Let the reckoning begin!

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Yvonne - I will admit that Paladin's can be a little lackluster when compared to some Fighters out there, but I think it may be your build. I am still running my Level 14 Holy Avenger, and loving every minute of it. I rank at or near the top of the Kills all the time, I can rez other party members, I am usually the last one standing in a party wipe, and I have over 300 hit point, evasion, and 34 UMD... I think that a Paladin can be very competative... with a good build, equipment, and practice.

I don't know your build, nor your items, but the sad reality is that if you want an effective Paladin in DDO, you pretty much have to Multiclass them. I know there are purist who will tell you otherwise, but a 1-3 level splash is just too good to turn down... Fighter Bonus Feats, Evasion, Maxxed UMD, or even Ranger ranged-feats, or Sorcerer Spell points... all are very inviting and compelling reasons to MultiClass.


I would recommend looking through my Basic Paladin Build Guide for some ideas, but for experienced players who want a good DPS character, that can fight on the front-lines next to the Fighters and Barbarians, yet still drop back to Heal and Rez and Scroll out Symbol of Persuasion and Blade Barriers... then look at the Holy Avenger (Human Evasion Paladin). If you don't like Human/Kopesh, you can certainly go Elf/Longsword or Dwarf/DA... but the Holy Avenger is a tried-and-true build, and I can attest to it's relevance, even post Mod-5.

Yes, my AC isn't sufficient to be the invulnerable tank I used to be, but I keep up and lead in the kills (the only ones who consistantly beat me are THF-Barbarians or TWF-Fighters). But I have saved many a party by pulling off the mobs and healing, or rezzing, or a myraid other abilities from a maxxed UMD.... and never having to worry about Race Restrictions is VERY nice too!

[Mhykke]

I don't know your build, nor your items, but the sad reality is that if you want an effective Paladin in DDO, you pretty much have to Multiclass them.

The only thing I disagree with.

If one goes for max dps on a paladin, can be very effective. This means khopesh, imp. crit, max str, bloodstone, etc. etc.

I'm one of the loudest critics of the paladin implementation in ddo and how they relate to other melees, but if you do go for max dps, think they can still be effective as a pure.

That being said, MC paladins can be very nice as well....

[nbhs275]

The only thing I disagree with.

If one goes for max dps on a paladin, can be very effective. This means khopesh, imp. crit, max str, bloodstone, etc. etc.

I'm one of the loudest critics of the paladin implementation in ddo and how they relate to other melees, but if you do go for max dps, think they can still be effective as a pure.

That being said, MC paladins can be very nice as well....

pure paladins gain a total of what damage bonus to smites? yea, so you can max out those 5-6 smites you get a shrine, and then do about 1/2 the damage of a DPS build. If your really going for DPS a 2hander is what you'll use. I only break out my khopeshs when im soloing and finally low on LoH. Yay huge 2handed AC!

[Mithran]

I'm working on an elven (pure) paladin GTHF. She's level 5 now, and respectable Str/Cha (I don't max abilities; I go for a balanced build). Her dps is good, and at higher levels, she'll be quite effective. I decided to roll her in view of how dominant Chelsea was on the kill count in a Scale run. I don't expect to be as dominant as he was, but there are benefits to rolling a balanced character, too.

[Twerpp]

Yvonne try swinging a nice 2h, I used them a lot on Twerpp who is a multi because pally levels helped me get 45 AC completely unbuffed while using a 2h and power attack. Throw in some ranger barkskin, recitation, haste, shield clickies, well you can see how you can have higher AC and damage than many a sword and bored fighter. If you have the racial enhancements and/or great strength consider picking up power attack and stunning blow, autocrits obviously increase your damage output.

I understand your frustration Dip makes no sense why would a fearless, virtuous paladin encourage mobs to attack other members of your party? And the Armor thing makes perfect sense I don't understand what they thought was so overpowered with the +5 auras in the first place.

One thing I dont recommend is to change your game plan at 12th level, if you wanted a 14th pally, make him a 14th pally. But if you choose to do so, fighter is gonna get you the free feats, rogue is gonna get your intimidate or UMD maxed, and evasion. One path leads you to a bit more damage and kills, and the other further down the road as a support/2nd hitter melee. Nothing wrong with either or your original build though, nothing a SoS, bloodstone, and Power Attack cant fix if damage is your goal.

[Blazer]

I understand your frustration Dip makes no sense why would a fearless, virtuous paladin encourage mobs to attack other members of your party? And the Armor thing makes perfect sense I don't understand what they thought was so overpowered with the +5 auras in the first place.

There has been some discussion about paladin skills (or lack thereof) recently. The diplomacy thing is simply a hold-over from PnP/roleplaying. The paladin with his high charisma blends well with diplomacy, from the standpoint of trying to be diplomatic and perhaps avoid confrontational situations (as an example). They way they've implemented diplo in this game (since there is no RP) makes it a useless skill for paladins.

Hopefully they'll put the +5 auras back eventually. However, they'll be pretty expensive AP wise - will people want to pay however many more APs it will be for an additional +1? I'm sure some will, some won't.

[Mhykke]

pure paladins gain a total of what damage bonus to smites? yea, so you can max out those 5-6 smites you get a shrine, and then do about 1/2 the damage of a DPS build. If your really going for DPS a 2hander is what you'll use. I only break out my khopeshs when im soloing and finally low on LoH. Yay huge 2handed AC!

Definitely not comparing to a pure 2 handed dps build.

But that's not the idea about the paladin complaints. People aren't trying to make paladins the equivalent of dps 2 handed builds.

[nbhs275]

Definitely not comparing to a pure 2 handed dps build.

But that's not the idea about the paladin complaints. People aren't trying to make paladins the equivalent of dps 2 handed builds.

I did, and it works out great. His AC is fantastic without a shield, and still hits as hard or harder then a 2handed fighter(though barbarians should always be at the top of the curve).

What i was saying was that the only true benefit of lvl 14 pally over a 12/2 split is

lvl 4 spells(which are all pretty lack luster when you got any kind of loot)

an extra LoH(if you want to blow 6 action points on it)

and an extra 3 damage on smites.

where the fighter levels gain you

2 extra feats

+1 str

haste boost

Trip strat

Towershield


SO DPS wise they can do about the same as a fighter, but also have other abilities, like a noteworthy AC without a shield

10 base
9 body
6 docent
3 dex
5 protection
4 paladin
4 natural
2 choasguard
3 chattering
___________
46. 50 with shield clickie

Like i said on my khopeshs, i dont break them out unless i need a little extra defence( Ran Inferno using no potions or outside healing simply by using high AC//DPS in conjunction with my choasblade. Add in cleaves and its a money free fight)

[nbhs275]

I had a paladin, I liked running her...but it did seem that she got less useful over time.
She couldn't intimidate well. Seemed fighters could always command greater agro.
She didn't DPS well.
She had trouble.

Maybe it was my build.

I was wondering if there was any way to improve them through the levels without taking all the glory (wait...paladins are all about the glory) away from the Fighters and the barbs.

Honestly, I thought of her as a back up healer, rather than a tank. Which saddened me.

Diplomacy. This skill needs some work. Use it and the MOBs attack someone else?
Shouldn't a high enough diplomacy actually make a MOB less likely to attack your party and, in fact, convince them to fight with you...Think about the times we use it to convince Giants to give us their keys or other MOBs not attack. Couldn't this work? Like suggestion...Acquire Henchling?

Smite...ok.
This is well used by many but little used by me. Finding the hot bar and clicking on it always seemed too hard to remember (must have used INT as a dump stat...lol.) What if their confirmed crit actually produced a smite evil result?
Bad Idea?

Armor. Paladins are trained for heavy armor, they live in it. they sleep in it...they polish it till it gleams! Appearance is everything. Shouldn't their background and training allow---say an enhancement that shows their superior armor mastery, A + to armor class or a minus to armor penalty? Just because they are pali?
I know...I make little sense.

I would like to play a Paladin again, but after 12th level she seemed to be readily replaced by fighters and barbs, someone with the strength to maintain agro, swiftly kill and take damage. Sure, disease immunity, fear immunity...self healing/buffing capability...

But a holy knight should still be a force to be reckoned with.

Let the reckoning begin!

a fighter dip is a good solution to many of these problems

if you take only two levels of fighter, it atleasts makes intimidate max-able, and gives two bonus feats. The benefits of 14 pally isnt all too much.

If you take four, you can get fighter armor mastery I, along with WS, a little boost to your melee damage.

I've played with a drow pally, 10/4 pally fighter, who was pretty impressive, with a good bit of AC(think she had about a 48 without buffs) and did reasonable damage with her rapiers(which she gained +4 to hit and +4 damage with through enhancments and feats. She had very good saves, respectable hitpoints, and good healing. I may repost a aproximation of her build on these forums.

Personally, i have a WF pally who is basically immune to all spells, with his lowest unbuffed save being a 22, being immune to envation, disease, poison, holds, fear, and does great DPS(still havent seen another build that can break the pure 300 mark).