Bucklers

[GuitarHero]

Hehe, i remember my Pally in PnP built around shield bash. Had a lot of the Defenders of the Faith feats, as well as Shield Expertise. My pally said forget the sword, i'm using two shields!!! RYGAR FTW!!!!

[Hvymetal]

I know a few rogues that would love to see bucklers implemented properly, and (not sure about 3.5 ruleset and really too lazy to go check srd right now about to play) the improved buckler defense feat

[DSL]

I know a few rogues that would love to see bucklers implemented properly, and (not sure about 3.5 ruleset and really too lazy to go check srd right now about to play) the improved buckler defense feat

Here's the problem - nearly everyone that wants bucklers "implemented correctly" means they want to be able to use the Improved Buckler Defense feat. This feat is not a core rules feat, and Turbine has only rarely used non-core rules feats for DDO. Once you exclude this feat (which is unbalanced anyway), then what exactly do people expect in DDO from the "correct implementation of bucklers"? Given that you would have to have some method of swapping between using your off-hand between shield use and weapon use without switching weapons, isn't switching weapon sets more or less the same thing?

The advantage of a buckler in PnP is not having to spend a move-equivalent action to swap out your shield for a weapon, but to simply decide from round to round whether or not to use your off hand for AC or for attack. The buckler-using archer does not gain AC from it while shooting, but can quickly gain its AC benefit when an enemy closes (of course forfeiting any two-handed bow use while doing so). I suspect many people seem to think they should be getting the full AC benefits with only a -1 to hit as the trade-off.

Yes, it would be nice to see shield/off-hand weapon use mesh better, but long ago Turbine decided to implement their "blocking" mechanic, which fundamentally changes how this sort of thing works.

[Ithrani]

Those who think THF is more powerful in PnP then TWF are sadly mistaken. TWF has more potential for attacks maybe you won't hit for more damage in one swing but you can hit more often since your almost getting double the amount of attacks and you also are forgetting feats that allow for two of the same weapon to be used in each hand. So two elven light blades, basically rapiers with 1d8 damage plus the same crit range, also two weapon rend feat helps add to DPR. Now they may be epic level feats but even at level 12-20 TWF really shines over THF.

And the best DPR is archers in PnP, anyone who wants to argue that can take on my fiance's Arcane Archer.


PS FIX BUCKLERS

[DSL]

Those who think THF is more powerful in PnP then TWF are sadly mistaken. TWF has more potential for attacks maybe you won't hit for more damage in one swing but you can hit more often since your almost getting double the amount of attacks and you also are forgetting feats that allow for two of the same weapon to be used in each hand. So two elven light blades, basically rapiers with 1d8 damage plus the same crit range, also two weapon rend feat helps add to DPR. Now they may be epic level feats but even at level 12-20 TWF really shines over THF.

And the best DPR is archers in PnP, anyone who wants to argue that can take on my fiance's Arcane Archer.


PS FIX BUCKLERS

Try a well-equipped paladin with all the mounted combat feats, using a lance.




Two-weapon fighting in PnP, as in DDO, works best with sneak attacks, but it doesn't take much in the way of feats for 2-handed weapon damage to reach crazy levels (Power Attack is really all you need) compared to a similar feat expenditure for two-weapon fighting. I would hazard a rough guess that you need a 2 for 1 feat expenditure to keep up with 2-H users in damage, but 2-weapon style has other benefits as well, mostly in terms of versatility, and remains a good option for lower-strength characters.


As to your P.S., how exactly would "fixing" bucklers change things for you, given that you don't get the AC benefit while attacking with the off-hand?

[muffinlad]

P.S. Side note, I never understood why Buckler and Light Shield offer the same AC bonus. It would make more sense to me that the smaller buckler would be base AC 0 and only receive AC bonus from enchantment. /meh

To steal from you...sort of.

It makes sense that Bucklers ad to your HtH AC at the same bonus as a light shield, and then offer no, or reduced (Magic +'s only) vs. missle weapons, and were more used for THF than TWF/Archery (but I am willing to bend).

This is something, btw, I could show you in real life. I can't show you how to run fast, or how to play basketball, or how to paint a picture, but I could show you how bucklers and two handed weapons work....and it would be a great skill if people didn't have handguns.

Now, off to learn more about Ascii art......

muffinlad

[ErgonomicCat]

Those who think THF is more powerful in PnP then TWF are sadly mistaken. TWF has more potential for attacks maybe you won't hit for more damage in one swing but you can hit more often since your almost getting double the amount of attacks and you also are forgetting feats that allow for two of the same weapon to be used in each hand. So two elven light blades, basically rapiers with 1d8 damage plus the same crit range, also two weapon rend feat helps add to DPR. Now they may be epic level feats but even at level 12-20 TWF really shines over THF.

The extra attacks are a mug's game. A single huge attack with a large to hit is where it's at. Yes, you get more attacks. All at -2. And you get a 1:1 return on your power attack, not a 2:1. And you can't use two attacks on a charge, which is where THF shines.

As an example, I'll point you to this thread:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.p...&postcount=104

I'll quote a couple salient point for you:

Basically, under normal conditions (Battle Jump + Leap Attack), this amounts to a 10:1 return on Power Attack, plus 3x normal weapon damage, every round. On foot.

This means that, for the big guns, he can end up with a 14:1 return, plus 5x normal damage

Finally, since he's moving a fair bit more than 10', he gets +3d6 on all damage and +3 AC. This isn't terribly critical but it's helpful considering your lighter armor and your need to make your one attack this round count.

For a half orc:

4x, 12:1 standard, 6x, 16:1 above build while mounted, 8x, 20:1 cavalier version, without a critical hit.

And

This version, using Unstoppable Charge on a Battle Jump, has a whopping 18:1 return on Power Attack, along with 7x the normal weapon damage, provided he uses the lance two-handed.

8x, 20:1 return. Using a large maul with greater mighty wallop (8d6 damage), that's 48d6 damage. Assuming a -10 power attack and 34 str, that's 48d6+18+3d6+200, or right about 400 damage. Casting Wraith Strike or True Strike, and PA'ing for 20, you're looking at +400.

TWF doesn't *typically* get that.

And the best DPR is archers in PnP, anyone who wants to argue that can take on my fiance's Arcane Archer.

Oh, dear.

In 3.0, maybe. In 3.5, unless you're within a couple minutes of a marathon buff session, not so much.

Arcane Archers lose pretty much all their useful casting, and most of their combat. The AA is such a nice class, but so not useful in practice. It *should* be amazingly interesting, but it's just not.

IMHO, of course.

Please see my other post in the "which race are you" and adjust my munchkin score up above 60%....

I may not know DDO, but I can beat PnP until it cries, mostly by stealing from the geniuses at the CharOp boards.

[QuantumFX]

to your P.S., how exactly would "fixing" bucklers change things for you, given that you don't get the AC benefit while attacking with the off-hand?

Lets see - Bucklers have a higher defensive DR than an off hand weapon. (It's called the shift key where the full AC bonus of the buckler could be applied to the characters AC.) Bucklers can also have some nifty attributes attached to them like elemental resistances, fortification. And this is before we start talking about Improved Buckler Defense.

[Vormaerin]

Even without all the whacked feat combos that the powergaming forum at Wizards' pulls out of where ever, THF is better than TWF if you possess a high strength (14+) because you get 1.5x Strength damage and superior base weapon damage. 1d12+6 at full to hit is just better than 1d6+4/1d6+2 (for rapier/shortsword or twin shortswords) at -2 to hit. Further, most folks who argue the TWF cause are spending a ton of feats on TWF without giving the THF guy credit for the feats he'd have instead. Almost as importantly, TWF only gets all its attacks if you can take a full action (ie your opponent is standing there toe to toe with you). If you have to move around a lot, you are only making a single one handed attack.

TWF has its place, but it is for finesse types with relatively low strength who wish to make up for it by taking additional attacks. Or who have some other damage output to apply (sneak attacks, principally).

As for bucklers, their only core functionality is to always give you a -1 to hit but let you choose each round whether to use your off hand to attack or shield. Essentially irrelevant in DDO with weapon switching hotkeys, as already mentioned. So in a way they are implemented properly.

[DSL]

Lets see - Bucklers have a higher defensive DR than an off hand weapon. (It's called the shift key where the full AC bonus of the buckler could be applied to the characters AC.) Bucklers can also have some nifty attributes attached to them like elemental resistances, fortification. And this is before we start talking about Improved Buckler Defense.

Ahh, now these are valid arguments in favor of them, rather than the tired old "I want the AC benefit I'd get with the Improved Buckler Defense feat". Of course, this brings up the question as to whether a -1 to hit is too small a trade-off for what is almost a free ring slot, considering how many melee'ers go THF instead of "Sword and Board" these days. Nevertheless, I do agree with you that we are extremely unlikely to see this, as it involves an overhaul of the item-slot/weapon-set system. Incidentally, I am certainly not opposed to bucklers being "fixed", but it does bother me to see how many people asking for this seem to expect that it would come with a broken feat from an optional supplement.

[SteeleTrueheart]

IIRC a mithral buckler would remove all ASF and attack penalties.
I believe you suffer the skill penalty to all attacks when using a buckler. (The -1 in the description) This was mentioned in a Sage article I think (?? cant recall) Mithral reduces this skill penalty to 0.

I remember this because the Sage said that all arcane casters should be carrying a mithral buckler.

Also bucklers can be used by archers without penalty.

Buckler
This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.

You can’t bash someone with a buckler.

[QuantumFX]

Ahh, now these are valid arguments in favor of them, rather than the tired old "I want the AC benefit I'd get with the Improved Buckler Defense feat". Of course, this brings up the question as to whether a -1 to hit is too small a trade-off for what is almost a free ring slot, considering how many melee'ers go THF instead of "Sword and Board" these days. Nevertheless, I do agree with you that we are extremely unlikely to see this, as it involves an overhaul of the item-slot/weapon-set system. Incidentally, I am certainly not opposed to bucklers being "fixed", but it does bother me to see how many people asking for this seem to expect that it would come with a broken feat from an optional supplement.

There's also the possibility, with a combat system overhaul, to give a weapon an alternate stance. Things like switching from weapon/buckler straight to TWF without Turbines signature weapon switch lag, throwing weapons and using a normal weapon with both hands come to mind in these cases.

[GuitarHero]

Ok, honestly, i just want to be able to equip my +2 Ghost Touch Longbow of Greater Undead Bane and my +1 Deathblock Buckler. Yeah, selfish of me, but thats why i started the thread!!! I don't care which martial style beats which one, because its all personal opinion! I don't even care about some feat that lets me throw my shield like Rygar from the old video game!!! I just want to take on the beholder in GoP with my bow and buckler equipped.

[DSL]

IIRC a mithral buckler would remove all ASF and attack penalties.
I believe you suffer the skill penalty to all attacks when using a buckler. (The -1 in the description) This was mentioned in a Sage article I think (?? cant recall) Mithral reduces this skill penalty to 0.

I remember this because the Sage said that all arcane casters should be carrying a mithral buckler.

Also bucklers can be used by archers without penalty.

The Armor check penalty of any shield applies to skills and attacks when you're not proficient with it, which is applied to all attacks regardless of which hand you're attacking with. In the case of a masterwork buckler, the ACP is zero, thus eliminating this penalty (this is why MW/magical bucklers are often used by rogues or other non-shield proficient classes). However, the -1 referred to above is not the same as the ACP, and applies to anyone (proficient or not) who uses a buckler and attacks with their shield arm at the same time. This is to reflect the awkwardness of attacking with a 5-pound weight strapped to your forearm (and is very much akin to the -2 penalty to all attacks while using a tower shield).

Technically, if you were not proficient with shields and you were using a normal (non-MW) buckler while using a 2-handed weapon or an off-hand weapon, you would do so at -2 (-1 for off-handed buckler use, -1 for ACP nonproficiency). The benefit of a mithril buckler over a non-mithril MW buckler for spellcasters is that there is no arcane spell failure chance with mithril, thus eliminating all penalties for using one (a mithril light shield also has an ASF of zero, but somewhat limits what you can do with that hand).

[QuantumFX]

Ok, honestly, i just want to be able to equip my +2 Ghost Touch Longbow of Greater Undead Bane and my +1 Deathblock Buckler. Yeah, selfish of me, but thats why i started the thread!!! I don't care which martial style beats which one, because its all personal opinion! I don't even care about some feat that lets me throw my shield like Rygar from the old video game!!! I just want to take on the beholder in GoP with my bow and buckler equipped.

Silver Flame Trinket rank 3 is way more handy when dealing with enervation spambots... err... beholders and doomspheres...

[GuitarHero]

Silver Flame Trinket rank 3 is way more handy when dealing with enervation spambots... err... beholders and doomspheres...

yup, i know, but say i haven't gotten that yet, or that slot is preoccupied... Not saying it can't be worked around, but just throwin' the possibility out there. i mean, i can swap gear around and work around it, (which is what i do now) or i could get something i should technically be allowed to do in the first place.

[QuantumFX]

yup, i know, but say i haven't gotten that yet, or that slot is preoccupied... Not saying it can't be worked around, but just throwin' the possibility out there. i mean, i can swap gear around and work around it, (which is what i do now) or i could get something i should technically be allowed to do in the first place.

I'm not saying give up on the bucklers I'm just saying there's something more efficent. And with that configuration you could use a buckler of greater elemental resists for the living and undead versions of enervation spambots... err beholders and doomspheres...

[GuitarHero]

I'm not saying give up on the bucklers I'm just saying there's something more efficent. And with that configuration you could use a buckler of greater elemental resists for the living and undead versions of enervation spambots... err beholders and doomspheres...

aye, either way requires the proper use of a buckler. and besides, my cloak is my Greater elemental resist items.