Level 20 Concept: The Ultimate Buff Fighter

[EinarMal]

Also, the only pieces of raid loot in there that actually changed anything where tomes and the gloves. So drop the +5 from 7FG to +3 from a Delera necklace. WOOO.

Tomes?

get a +2 from 1750

Get a +2 from 20 dragon runs

Get a +3 from 20 reaver runs

Get a +2 from 20 titan runs

Get a +2 from 20 DQ runs

Has nothing to do with luck. If your level 20 and your not raiding then your going to be weaker and there isnt a point to grief others because they have something you didnt bother to try and get.

Hehe just pointing out most of the extra mana you are talking about came from items not the build. If I added a +2/+3 wisdom and +2/+3 int tome and another 100 spell points from skiver I would come in a lot closer to your numbers that was my point. If I had those tomes and really wanted more spell points I could get 200-300 more by counting those things in and adjusting some enhancements to boost wisdom/int.

[EinarMal]

With no true defence, all it will take is one or two dispels and your out of a job. Try standing up against 5-7 mobs when your buffless. Your build may look almost worthwhile when you factor in all your low caster level buffs, but once you face a casting mob you will be going the way of the doe doe... Could also compare this entire build to my balance bard, he will come out far ahead too.

TWF isnt as strong as you would like to think man, not when your using axes. If your breaking out piercing then yea, its worth it, but slashing DPS is weaker with TWF(even on khopeshs).

What TWF/two hander has any other defense? Get dispelled then you re-cast displacmenet/stoneskin and keep fighting. That is no different then pretty much every DPS battle Bard or Cleric out there it has nothing to do with this build really. Most of the time I will probably wear a +6 str item so I don't have to have DP unless I need the extra BAB. So, for the most part if I get dispelled then really it is just re-casting displacement/stoneskin (mainly) and maybe divine favor. Not that big a deal really and something pretty much every Bard has to deal with, or any buff fighter for that matter like a battle wizard/sorc etc....there are plenty of those builds around as well.

Again it is not a Bard/Cleric but a melee TWF fighter I simply don't care about spells that are not heals/buffs. So comparing it to a casting/fighting Bard is meaningless.

TWF w/ GTWF does add significant damage over going rapier/shield. A Dwarven Axe with racial enhancements is a pretty nice weapon. Maybe we can bug A_Sheep to put it into his calculator but I can tell you that is significantly higher.

Let me try to explain the motivation a bit, I like dealing good DPS, but I hate not having self healing and some sort of defense. I also like TWF I like the DPS it gives, the weapon flexibility, and the ease of targeting what you want to hit and not what you don't. I already have a TWF Bard as you know that mostly fits this, but wanted to try something different. This build has more hit points (Dwarf over Drow) and some better defensive spell buffs compared to any Bard build you simply can't cast 30 pt resits, spell resistance, death ward and other things. Now it's true that pretty much everything is on some item or other but it is hard to fit all that stuff into only so many gear slots.

This guy can pretty much run through a quest naked, with a couple of stat items and that is pretty much all he needs outside of a couple of good axes. Again no build has the kind of self buff flexibilty that this build would have. There is no doubt it will be an effective character. It has high enough to hit, good damage, enough hit points, and about as good as defense as you can get while going for DPS with TWF/THF. What other defense do you suggest really AC is pretty much out in that case. The best surrogate are good buffs and this guy has every single good defensive buff in the game, all castable with extend, lasting over a minute minimum available instantly (quicken).

That is why he is the ultimate buff fighter, he can cast basically every single good offensive/defensive spell buff in the game, all instantly (quicken) and lasting long enough between shrines. To me there is no comparison to have ~1:30 displacements/haste plus longer lasting cleric buffs available that is awesome to me.

Think about when fully buffed:
Full BAB Buff (DP)
+6 Strength (DP)
+4 AC (Shield)
10 DR (Stoneskin)
50% Miss (Displacement)
+3 Hit/DMG (Divine Power)
Fast Attack (Haste)
30 Point Resists (Resist Energy)
Absorb 70 Energy (Protection from Energy)
23 Spell Resistance (Spell Resistance)
Immunity to Death Effects (Death Ward)
+3 Deflection Bonus (Shield of Faith)

That is sick.....I have total item flexibilty. All I need is fearsome, heavy fort, a couple of stat items (con really, str would protect against dispel) and some weapons. Anything else is totally optional.

Oh and BTW I can hit myself with 230+ heals and heal scrolls for pretty much infinite hit points. How are you going to kill this guy? Compare that to your normal everyday figher/pally/barb sure the fighter/barb has higher DPS but better have a lot of pots/high end items along or a pocket cleric to keep up with this guy.

[nbhs275]

[QUOTE=EinarMal;1417275]

Think about when fully buffed:
Full BAB Buff (DP) <Which the good battlecleric has>
+6 Strength (DP) <Which the good battlecleric has>
+4 AC (Shield) <Which the good battlecleric has with an additional +3>
10 DR (Stoneskin) <Which the good battlecleric has>
50% Miss (Displacement) <Which the good battlecleric has>

+3 Hit/DMG (Divine Power)<Which the good battlecleric has>

Fast Attack (Haste)<Which the good battlecleric has>

30 Point Resists (Resist Energy)<Which the good battlecleric has>

Absorb 70 Energy (Protection from Energy)<Which the good battlecleric has +50>

23 Spell Resistance <Which the good battlecleric has +6>
(Spell Resistance)
Immunity to Death Effects (Death Ward)<Which the good battlecleric has>

+3 Deflection Bonus (Shield of Faith)<Which the good battlecleric has>

30 QUOTE]

Everything you have the other build has, with no compromises. All of those abilities are easily emulated through items, potions or scrolls.

Protection pots, haste pots, +6 str item, +5 protection items, Tangleroot goggles, stoneskin scrolls, seal of earth, displacment scrolls.

The name of the game at twenty is not going to be how many weak buffs you can have running in any 1 minute period, but how many strong buffs you can keep running at 4 minutes a pop.

Your build is losing out for trying to do everything. Stick to pure battlecleric for soloing, and then when you have an arcane in the party you can get your oh so great displacment and stoneskin. Fat lot they will do you, with mobs having increasingly more addy weapons, trueseeing, dispelling, and debuffing.

Your betting on alot of weak components somehow creating a very strong machine. Which unless a mystic theurge ability is implemented, just is not going to happen.

[EinarMal]

[quote=nbhs275;1417492]

Think about when fully buffed:
Full BAB Buff (DP) <Which the good battlecleric has>
+6 Strength (DP) <Which the good battlecleric has>
+4 AC (Shield) <Which the good battlecleric has with an additional +3>
10 DR (Stoneskin) <Which the good battlecleric has>
50&#37; Miss (Displacement) <Which the good battlecleric has>

+3 Hit/DMG (Divine Power)<Which the good battlecleric has>

Fast Attack (Haste)<Which the good battlecleric has>

30 Point Resists (Resist Energy)<Which the good battlecleric has>

Absorb 70 Energy (Protection from Energy)<Which the good battlecleric has +50>

23 Spell Resistance <Which the good battlecleric has +6>
(Spell Resistance)
Immunity to Death Effects (Death Ward)<Which the good battlecleric has>

+3 Deflection Bonus (Shield of Faith)<Which the good battlecleric has>

30 QUOTE]

Everything you have the other build has, with no compromises. All of those abilities are easily emulated through items, potions or scrolls.

Protection pots, haste pots, +6 str item, +5 protection items, Tangleroot goggles, stoneskin scrolls, seal of earth, displacment scrolls.

The name of the game at twenty is not going to be how many weak buffs you can have running in any 1 minute period, but how many strong buffs you can keep running at 4 minutes a pop.

Your build is losing out for trying to do everything. Stick to pure battlecleric for soloing, and then when you have an arcane in the party you can get your oh so great displacment and stoneskin. Fat lot they will do you, with mobs having increasingly more addy weapons, trueseeing, dispelling, and debuffing.

Your betting on alot of weak components somehow creating a very strong machine. Which unless a mystic theurge ability is implemented, just is not going to happen.

I don't think I have ever had an arcane wizard/sorc ever cast displacement on me during a quest good luck with that seriously have you ever partied with a caster that was concerned with keeping your displacement up?

The components are not weak, most all the buffs I listed are not level dependent other than duration. You keep making a big deal about 1:30 not being long enough well I can tell you from experience it is not a problem. Duration, as long as it is not 30 seconds from a scroll is a minor issue. That is plenty of time.

I really don't think you get it, you keep comparing it to a battle cleric, I keep telling you it is not a cleric, and then you ignore me and tell me how much better a healer a cleric is or how cleric can do x.

If I wanted a battle cleric I could build an 18/2 cleric/fighter or 17/3 cleric/pally although I would go two handed instead.

What this build does is TWF, and given that style has the best spell defense possible while doing that. Again that is it, he fights, using buffs which I can maintain between shrines. I am sorry but depending on someone else in the party to keep me displaced so I can fight is not reasonable to me.

I keep telling you that scrolling haste/displacement especially is not the same. HAve you ever actually tried to use displacement scrolls in a quest? I have and it is a total pain and not even really practical unless it is a final boss fight or other and everyone is standing around buffing for it.

I like to play this game fast, not stand around trying to buff myself with scrolls continually for 30 second duration.

Cleric 11 is all you need for my purposes, the extra levels get me nothing for what I want to do. I don't need 17, 18 levels of cleric just 11. Mystic Theurge would be nice but it is hardly necessary about the best thing would be a little stronger heal spell and longer buffs and that is about it. Most of the extra spells I would get would not be that useful since again I am only interested in Buff/Healing spells.

[nbhs275]

[QUOTE=EinarMal;1417617]

I don't think I have ever had an arcane wizard/sorc ever cast displacement on me during a quest good luck with that seriously have you ever partied with a caster that was concerned with keeping your displacement up?

The components are not weak, most all the buffs I listed are not level dependent other than duration. You keep making a big deal about 1:30 not being long enough well I can tell you from experience it is not a problem. Duration, as long as it is not 30 seconds from a scroll is a minor issue. That is plenty of time.

I really don't think you get it, you keep comparing it to a battle cleric, I keep telling you it is not a cleric, and then you ignore me and tell me how much better a healer a cleric is or how cleric can do x.

If I wanted a battle cleric I could build an 18/2 cleric/fighter or 17/3 cleric/pally although I would go two handed instead.

What this build does is TWF, and given that style has the best spell defense possible while doing that. Again that is it, he fights, using buffs which I can maintain between shrines. I am sorry but depending on someone else in the party to keep me displaced so I can fight is not reasonable to me.

I keep telling you that scrolling haste/displacement especially is not the same. HAve you ever actually tried to use displacement scrolls in a quest? I have and it is a total pain and not even really practical unless it is a final boss fight or other and everyone is standing around buffing for it.

I like to play this game fast, not stand around trying to buff myself with scrolls continually for 30 second duration.

Cleric 11 is all you need for my purposes, the extra levels get me nothing for what I want to do. I don't need 17, 18 levels of cleric just 11. Mystic Theurge would be nice but it is hardly necessary about the best thing would be a little stronger heal spell and longer buffs and that is about it. Most of the extra spells I would get would not be that useful since again I am only interested in Buff/Healing spells.

I often through a good melee a displacment when they ask for it or if i think they can use it. Because good builds dont have just enough mana to get by, they have enough mana to get by for themself and be able to openly help someone else.

So are you gimping the build because you dont play well with others or?

[EinarMal]

So are you gimping the build because you dont play well with others or?

See it is these kind of negative and silly statements that cause people to really dislike your posts and builds. Rarely is anything so black and white as you seem to believe. Good luck, but seriously I am done with you. Don't like it then don't do it.

[nbhs275]

See it is these kind of negative and silly statements that cause people to really dislike your posts and builds. Rarely is anything so black and white as you seem to believe. Good luck, but seriously I am done with you. Don't like it then don't do it.

Where is big thread telling me that im a jerk? im sorry that you don't like the feedback i gave your build. But if its awful im not going to big you a gold star and hang it on the fridge like im your mother. If you post something for critic, and claim it to be far superior to what others should and would be, and it isnt, then i will call you on it.

I dont make everything look black in white, you seem to have us mixed up. You said that your buffs are good and that you have enough.

Then i point out that they are relatively weak, short, and that your going to be losing alot of mana to upkeep buffing. I support my arguement with both numbers and other information. All your replys have been almost childish, wordy embelishments of "nu uh! its right and great because i said so!"

You have yet to show me your magic math that says your spell points will be enough, or to explain how your 70 point stoneskins are any better then my 70 stoneskins. Or how your 30 resists are better then my 30 resists. Or how a minute and a half of displacment is as good as 4 minutes. If your arguement is that duration is void in this comparison, then you cannot make the arguement that a minute and a half is better then 30 seconds.

Do you understand debate? there isnt anything personal here, just me telling you the honest truth about what you have made. Im sorry i didnt sugar coat my reply. I guess i should of been gentle with your ego.

[EinarMal]

Where is big thread telling me that im a jerk? im sorry that you don't like the feedback i gave your build. But if its awful im not going to big you a gold star and hang it on the fridge like im your mother. If you post something for critic, and claim it to be far superior to what others should and would be, and it isnt, then i will call you on it.

I dont make everything look black in white, you seem to have us mixed up. You said that your buffs are good and that you have enough.

Then i point out that they are relatively weak, short, and that your going to be losing alot of mana to upkeep buffing. I support my arguement with both numbers and other information. All your replys have been almost childish, wordy embelishments of "nu uh! its right and great because i said so!"

You have yet to show me your magic math that says your spell points will be enough, or to explain how your 70 point stoneskins are any better then my 70 stoneskins. Or how your 30 resists are better then my 30 resists. Or how a minute and a half of displacment is as good as 4 minutes. If your arguement is that duration is void in this comparison, then you cannot make the arguement that a minute and a half is better then 30 seconds.

Do you understand debate? there isnt anything personal here, just me telling you the honest truth about what you have made. Im sorry i didnt sugar coat my reply. I guess i should of been gentle with your ego.

Civility is what it is called....I could care less if you criticize the build, using words like gimp and implying that I can't play the game are something else entirely.