Battle Cleric is a dead end

[Ghoste]

exactly! you just made my point thank you

Lol, I think you missed the actual point.

[redoubt]

...and i don't need to build a battlel cleric to understand how useless they are, ..

Of course you don't. Besides, you gimp him on purpose to prove your point.

You do need more than a level 1 cleric to say that a healbot is uber. Play one to level cap and 2000 favor and get back to us.

And a big point you and lizzard won't accept is that a battle cleric can take all the same heal enhancements and feats as a healbot AND do damage.

[redoubt]

Yes you do.

You need the cleric
The cleric does not need you

Who is the gimp?

Awesome!

[Aspenor]

I don't care how somebody wants to play their cleric. I have a good friend who runs a cleric, and he is bluntly honest, "I'm only healing you if you're about to die, I'm not a cleric, I don't have enough spell points to be the main healer"....he's a tank. A fully self sufficient tank. Self buffs, damage, and self healing.

I have other friends with casting clerics, battleclerics that are versatile, and healbots.

However, the way I play the game not only are healing focused clerics unnecessary, but clerics themselves are unnecessary. Sure, a cleric is a nice addition to any party, but not required.

That being said, I'll never tell somebody how to play their character if they clarify their build beforehand. If I'm expecting heals and they are a TANKING cleric, then just say so, that's fine with me. I prefer a warning rather than adjusting on the fly.

[redoubt]

last i checked it is the clerics job to heal in a group to keep people alive, no one said it was their sole responsibility and obviously people should carry pots and wands.
as i said earlier, battle clerics are great , if there is a dedicated healer in the group already.

From the compendium:
Clerics are always welcome in a party. Their healing skills are unmatched, they know how to fight, and they use their holy magic to turn away or even destroy undead creatures. Clerics can use simple weapons and all forms of armor and shields without penalty.

I see where it stats a clerics strengths are healing, fighting and magic. I seem to have missed the part where it says what a clerics job is. Can you show that to me please?

[Cowdenicus]

Like this?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=6

fear the clowns. especially ASP.

[redoubt]

i realize i'm preaching to the choir in this forum , but i'm certain if you polled all of DDO what groups prefer I think we can all agree the overwhelming majority would be clerics not battle clerics. not saying a battle cleric can't be effective, in my first post i said i've grouped with some, but sadly they are the minority.
i'm gonna roll a battle cleric to see first hand, im going to name him Gimped Healer okay the name is a joke but i will roll a battle cleric and put my money where my mouth is. i'm certain a pure cleric will heal more effeciently at this point lets see if I change my tune by lvl 10.

ps anyone wanna run ww tonight

I think its great that you are willing to check it out, but I think you should start with a healbot. BCs take more skill and are much harder to make and require balance. Ask Sigtrent or Impact or the many others here in the cleric forum.

Again, try the one you think everyone else should have. Not the one we are saying is fun and useful.

[redoubt]

exactly! you just made my point thank you

Which means the mobs are not beating on you and you are free to drink a potion and wand heal the cleric who is holding the agro for you!

[Cowdenicus]

I think the people that need education are those that need a healer, period.

QFT, my evasion fighter has the UMD to use cure serious wands no sweat.

[Cowdenicus]

I belive the words "kill as good as any tank" escaped your keyboard in reguards to your rogue. I'd take your mulit rogue over a pure skill rogue any day. You don't need pure skill rogues in DDO any more than you need pure healer clerics. What you need are characters that are usefull in all situations. Characters that can kill mosnters, defend the party, and overcome quest challenges pretty much in that order. Offense is better than defense in D&D and in DDO. (Well, in real D&D all offense could mean you have a dead character but that's somewhat meaningless here)



That's the thing though. You name just about any focus in game, and I can probably make a multi class character that does it better than any pure class character. Barbarian and sorcerer are possibly the only exceptions as they are truly hyper specilized classes. Cleric isn't specilized at all.



One of many abbilities. The strongest healing builds are not pure clerics. Multi classing paladin actualy makes clerics better healers, as does a level of sorcerer. Makes them better damage casters too, but hurts thier CC abbilities somewhat. If you really know the game mechanics you can make all kinds of interesting characters.

Hey my cleric is special, uhm nevermind.

[Cowdenicus]

ROFL... my "Battle Clerics" frequent 1097 point Heal spells would beg to differ with you on this point. As well as my 160-200 CLWMass spells. buddy you have been grouping with some bad players or maby you're just not as good as you think you are. Either way find me sometime and lets put it to the test shall we?

Vanash > all of DWAT

[FluffyDucky]

Just for fun I went into the character planner and created a Dwarf Fighter 14 and a Dwarf Cleric/Fighter 13/1. The information will not prove either side of the debate but I thought it would be useful to have some actual numbers.

This is not necessarily how I would build a Battle Cleric but I was trying to maximize the clerics melee abilities in order to provide a comparison between a pure fighter and a melee speced battle cleric. For the fighter I took full advantage of the fighter strength and toughness enhancements. For the cleric I put an equal number of points into wisdom and spell point enhancements (and the one fighter toughness enhancement available to him.) Ability increases went to Str for both and both received the full dwarven toughness enhancements. 5 feats and 1 combat feat were available to both but the fighter had 7 additional combat feats.

Fighter Advantages
+6 to hit +2 damage (Str & BAB)
+85 HP
+1 Reflex save
+1 AC (Due to Dex)
+7 Combat feats

Cleric Advantages
+8 will saves
786 SP and cleric spells up to level 7
Can use cleric wands/scrolls


Stats- start/end F C
Str 18/24 18/21
Dex 14/14 12/12
Con 18/20 16/18
Int 8/8 8/8
Wis 8/8 14/17
Cha 6/6 6/6

HP 346 261
SP 0 786

Feats 13 6

Saves
Fort 14 14
Reflex 6 5
Will 3 11

BAB 14/14/19/24 10/10/15/20

[Cowdenicus]

Of course you don't. Besides, you gimp him on purpose to prove your point.

You do need more than a level 1 cleric to say that a healbot is uber. Play one to level cap and 2000 favor and get back to us.

And a big point you and lizzard won't accept is that a battle cleric can take all the same heal enhancements and feats as a healbot AND do damage.

My cleric is at level cap and almost 2100 favor, my other cleric is 12 and well over 1000 favor. Am I qualified?

My clerics are not battle clerics, but I make sure they have disruptors (for undead preferably ghost touch ones which i have 2 of) paralizers and smiters for whatever.

I cast when needed, I CC when needed, I melee when bored, and if I feel charitable and you havent been dragging my blue bar down, I might even throw a heal.

I dont understand why my cleric can carry 500 heal scrolls, but a fighter can't.

Oh and I even have a vorpal kama of pure good, just in case.

[Cowdenicus]

I don't care how somebody wants to play their cleric. I have a good friend who runs a cleric, and he is bluntly honest, "I'm only healing you if you're about to die, I'm not a cleric, I don't have enough spell points to be the main healer"....he's a tank. A fully self sufficient tank. Self buffs, damage, and self healing.

I have other friends with casting clerics, battleclerics that are versatile, and healbots.

However, the way I play the game not only are healing focused clerics unnecessary, but clerics themselves are unnecessary. Sure, a cleric is a nice addition to any party, but not required.

That being said, I'll never tell somebody how to play their character if they clarify their build beforehand. If I'm expecting heals and they are a TANKING cleric, then just say so, that's fine with me. I prefer a warning rather than adjusting on the fly.

Yeah Asp only likes clerics for their DV's.

[Cowdenicus]

Just for fun I went into the character planner and created a Dwarf Fighter 14 and a Dwarf Cleric/Fighter 13/1. The information will not prove either side of the debate but I thought it would be useful to have some actual numbers.

This is not necessarily how I would build a Battle Cleric but I was trying to maximize the clerics melee abilities in order to provide a comparison between a pure fighter and a melee speced battle cleric. For the fighter I took full advantage of the fighter strength and toughness enhancements. For the cleric I put an equal number of points into wisdom and spell point enhancements (and the one fighter toughness enhancement available to him.) Ability increases went to Str for both and both received the full dwarven toughness enhancements. 5 feats and 1 combat feat were available to both but the fighter had 7 additional combat feats.

Fighter Advantages
+6 to hit +2 damage (Str & BAB)
+85 HP
+1 Reflex save
+1 AC (Due to Dex)
+7 Combat feats

Cleric Advantages
+8 will saves
786 SP and cleric spells up to level 7
Can use cleric wands/scrolls


Stats- start/end F C
Str 18/24 18/21
Dex 14/14 12/12
Con 18/20 16/18
Int 8/8 8/8
Wis 8/8 14/17
Cha 6/6 6/6

HP 346 261
SP 0 786

Feats 13 6

Saves
Fort 14 14
Reflex 6 5
Will 3 11

BAB 14/14/19/24 10/10/15/20

and once both classes self buff (hahahaha fighters self buffing) clerics have the same bab, the same strength, all resist 30's, +3 resistances, immunity to "missiles", and a host of other benies.

[Aranticus]

summary

point 1:
OP's idea of a BC is a clr that splash 1 lvl of ftr and tanks, does not cast divine spells, etc.

general consensus of players' idea of a BC is a clr, may or may not have 1 splash lvl, tanks, cast offensive ie blade barrier, destruction, and keeps the group in shape.

point 2:
OP's idea of playing a sor is to chuck AOE spells on groups of mobs while trying to avoid damage thru use of spells and for the clr to heal him

general consensus is a caster should pick fights they can win reliably and not go about tossing firewalls, fireballs, cone of cone anytime they like.


overall summary
OP DOES NOT have any idea what a BC can do nor how one is played. OP IS NOT able to effectively play his casters and thus rely on healbots to keep him up. basically, OP is just about as smart as the BCs he played with.....

a good BC picks fights they can participate in. my offensive (i tend to use more spells than fists) clr will never join a melee fray without proper battle prep, ie group of melee mobs seen, toss gtr command, switch to bursting pg weapon n slam away. alternatively what i do is to chuck a blade barrier down and run the mobs in and out of it. and when i do this, can OP-type of casters please NOT cast solid fog or dance ball? i'm not in trouble, i'm leading them in and out my trap

and again to OP, this is what is shown on my combat log last night

(Combat): You blade barrier hit Zakya Archer for 399 points of slash damage.

(Combat): Your holy smite hit Jarilith for 315 points of holy damage.

do i even need to melee at all.........

edit

ps: my pure dwarven clr has 232 hp, 41 ac, 1403 sp

[geoffhanna]

I dont even know where to begin. In fact i wont because i really dont need too. March 06 wants its post back...

[nbhs275]

After Level 10.

Sure, at the early levels, it's fun, but at the higher levels, groups NEED a healbot. Not because they are "gimped", as some BC's like to claim, but because the fights are tough. Battle Clerics that act as healbots aren't as good at healing due to the loss of levels, and if they act as a tank, they are insuring their own death, as the BC in no way could stand alone against the mob that took down the other 5 party members.

As a fighter, since the cleric needs to take Wisdom points for mana, they are lower in str and con, plus are missing bonus fighter feats, and have likely taken enhancesments for cleric as well as fighter, so overall are a less effective fighter.

So what do we have with the Battle Cleric at this stage? A subpar cleric and a subpar fighter. In short, a gimp. By L14, NOBODY will want to group with you.

If you are lucky, you are in a guild where they don't mind taking a BC along. But if you are pugging, it won't be pretty. Groups that bring a BC in thinking they are a cleric will be quite upset when they are allowed to die, and the BC will find their name on a LOT of blacklists.

If the idea here is self-sufficiency, there are ways to do it without gimping your abilities at higher levels.

1) Build a fighter or barb with a splash of bard. Gives you heal wands without gimping the tank ability, plus, you get to fascinate if you really need it.

2) Build a fighter with 3 levels of Pally and 1 level of cleric (need cha for this one). You get pally aura, charisma bonus to saves, immunity to fear and disease, and the cleric splash allows you to throw all the cleric wands and scrolls, and gives you bless and a few other low level goodies. You do lose top fighter enhancements and 2 bonus feats, though.

(WF need to add a splash of sorc to a pure fighter/barb for wands)

The important thing about these builds is you are self sufficient, you are obviously a tank (so there shouldn't be any issues about asked to "healbot") AND you can have a useful toon at higher levels.

IMO, Battle cleric is fine if you just want to run lowbie quests, but it's not viable in the long run.

Thank you, you seem to know exactly whats going on, seeing you never capped it, never ran it through all the quests, soloed, duoed or 2 manned nearly all of them including raids, and or used a GOOD build. And your Awfully good advice just tops it.

/sarcasm off.

Battle clerics are good. If someone wants to play a heal-*****, power to them.

But what i find funny is:
this part


1) Build a fighter or barb with a splash of bard. Gives you heal wands without gimping the tank ability, plus, you get to fascinate if you really need it.OR you could not gimp yourself by A: not multiclassing your barbarian like a fool and drinking potions(OMG NO GIMPING REQUIRED!!) B Getting a pally or ranger level for the same healing wands without BAB loss, or C just play a "Battle" variant of a self healing class

2) Build a fighter with 3 levels of Pally and 1 level of cleric (need cha for this one). You get pally aura, charisma bonus to saves, immunity to fear and disease, and the cleric splash allows you to throw all the cleric wands and scrolls, and gives you bless and a few other low level goodies. You do lose top fighter enhancements and 2 bonus feats, though.1 cleric level gives access to very few useful scrolls, and actually doesnt add up to any real bonus. Good call yet again from what obviously must be a great GIMPERS playbook

(WF need to add a splash of sorc to a pure fighter/barb for wandsLMAO. Sorcerers are cha based, WF take a cha hit, so you gain no actual spells unless you invest points or item slots too it. Next, they have the option of potions, which are just as effective as wands(more so for a melee seeing you dont have to switch your weapons out of your hands to use it, works during rage, feebleminded, the works))

The important thing about these builds is you are self sufficient, you are obviously a tank (so there shouldn't be any issues about asked to "healbot") AND you can have a useful toon at higher levels. I honestly dont think someone who failed to even cap their toon should be making any suggestions on building, whats effective, or anything like that. I havent seen a single good idea from this...just a backhanded insult to BCs

[nbhs275]

I don't care how somebody wants to play their cleric. I have a good friend who runs a cleric, and he is bluntly honest, "I'm only healing you if you're about to die, I'm not a cleric, I don't have enough spell points to be the main healer"....he's a tank. A fully self sufficient tank. Self buffs, damage, and self healing.

I have other friends with casting clerics, battleclerics that are versatile, and healbots.

However, the way I play the game not only are healing focused clerics unnecessary, but clerics themselves are unnecessary. Sure, a cleric is a nice addition to any party, but not required.

That being said, I'll never tell somebody how to play their character if they clarify their build beforehand. If I'm expecting heals and they are a TANKING cleric, then just say so, that's fine with me. I prefer a warning rather than adjusting on the fly.

If you where on khyber i would say the friend is me lmao, because to tell the truth im more concerned with my life, seeing i know how far i can get a group in a quest, but don't know what kinda punch the fighters/barbarians/casters pack.

[Ghoste]

Thank you for those numbers, Fluffy.

Would you mind taking them a step further?

Add divine power, divine favor, faith tenet enhancement for weapon proficiency and focus, and shield of faith to the battle cleric. And for a warforged, once every 10 min for 1 min they can add bladesworn transformation.