Battle Cleric is a dead end

[Rostauf]

Comparing DPS is pointless. Melee is substandard DPS, everybody knows it. Fighter, barbarian, battlecleric, it's all second-rate damage anyhow. The difference between a battle cleric and these two other classes is that the battle cleric can heal himself, others, and cast useful spells.

Barbarians and fighters put out substandard DPS and are marginally useless otherwise, except as a meat shield for the true powerhouses.

This is laughable

[sigtrent]

all characters are versatile....yada yada yada. the arguement here is are battle clerics as effective in groups as compared to a pure cleric and I say, NO. I have a rogue that can kill with the best of tanks and do traps etc. so drop that arguement. I have a bard that can buff and cc like any sorc. I understand multitasking, I have several kids

Look Mondo.. you havn't played a battle cleric so you don't know. You have some mulit class rogues. A rogue could easily argue you are a gimped rogue because you don't have full sneak attack, or as wide a range of skills or can't do the caball elite trap etc... and the fighters could say you are just a gimped fighter because you don't have 300+ HP nor 50+, and barbarians can say your a gimped DPS character because you cant do 150pt crits etc...

Whatever you think is cool about your other multi class characters is also cool about battle clerics. Whatever you think makes them weak characters is what makes your rogue a weak character.

[MondoGrunday]

I think the people that need education are those that need a healer, period.

then that must be a lot of people because for some reason the lfm is always filled with groups waiting for a cleric.

[Shyver]

My opinion is that he is "right on the money" is mine and not yours obviously. So to explain it to you would not be in anyone's interest. I was just agreeing with the OP and showing my support. I would also say that (my opinion):

AC is dependent on how much Plat you spend...
HP should not be the number one consideration for a non-melee character

So, ANY cleric that focuses on these two areas, should chose a different class (my opinion).

Ahh but a battle Cleric is a melee Character so that does become a valid consideration.

Also then by the above terms Rogues should use constituion as a dump stat and stay to the back untill a trap or locked door is encountered since they are not in fact a melee character by definition?

[Aspenor]

This is laughable

You might find it laughable, but I am completely serious.

IMHO tanks are a wasted spot in a party. I'll take a cleric or caster over a tank any day of the week. I'm trying to think of a quest besides von 6 where having a tank would be preferred to having another caster, and I can't think of one.

[sigtrent]

This is laughable

Tecnicaly no...

Damage per second.....

Arcane: Firewall for 150 per tick to multiple enemies (damage continues while you drop another spell shortly thereafter)
Melee: 80 per swing (if you get some crits) on a single enemy (4-7 swings)

Arcane: Dropps 1000+ HP mob wiht a single spell cast
Melee: Takes 2-3 attack routines to drop same mob if he's lucky

Either way the arcane can put out a lot more damage per second on a monster. Even at low level. I'm in a persistant group at the moment. My sorc can hit for 60-150 with niacs, the tanks hit for about 10-20.

Now clearly the melee can keep going all day and the caster has a limmited ammount of casting, so I'm not saying that a caster can simply replace the roll of a melee, but when you talk raw damage per second... arcane casters rule (and divine casters can get close to that but less often are set up to do so).

[MondoGrunday]

Look Mondo.. you havn't played a battle cleric so you don't know. You have some mulit class rogues. A rogue could easily argue you are a gimped rogue because you don't have full sneak attack, or as wide a range of skills or can't do the caball elite trap etc... and the fighters could say you are just a gimped fighter because you don't have 300+ HP nor 50+, and barbarians can say your a gimped DPS character because you cant do 150pt crits etc...

Whatever you think is cool about your other multi class characters is also cool about battle clerics. Whatever you think makes them weak characters is what makes your rogue a weak character.

you are absolutely right! i agree to all of what you just said. my splashed rogue isn't as good as a pure rogue because i spent feats on melee as opposed to just traps etc. my barb isn't as good as a pure barb either, fun to play but not as effective. most most effective toons are my pure builds because of their specific focus.
i believe the cleric to be the single most important player in a group, due to the ability they posses, efficient healing.

[MondoGrunday]

Tecnicaly no...

Damage per second.....

Arcane: Firewall for 150 per tick to multiple enemies (damage continues while you drop another spell shortly thereafter)
Melee: 80 per swing (if you get some crits) on a single enemy (4-7 swings)

Arcane: Dropps 1000+ HP mob wiht a single spell cast
Melee: Takes 2-3 attack routines to drop same mob if he's lucky

Either way the arcane can put out a lot more damage per second on a monster. Even at low level. I'm in a persistant group at the moment. My sorc can hit for 60-150 with niacs, the tanks hit for about 10-20.

Now clearly the melee can keep going all day and the caster has a limmited ammount of casting, so I'm not saying that a caster can simply replace the roll of a melee, but when you talk raw damage per second... arcane casters rule (and divine casters can get close to that but less often are set up to do so).

yes casters are broken right now in the game. my 14 sorc can do plenty more damage then my 14 tank and with ring of shadows, blue and displacement when it gets hairy, i rarely get hit let alone take damage and i can wand heal cuz i built in umd. i can rez too . they need to slow down sorc casting, its crazy fast. just run pop as a tank and try to get to the creatures before the caster kills them. its next to impossible.

[sigtrent]

IMHO tanks are a wasted spot in a party. I'll take a cleric or caster over a tank any day of the week. I'm trying to think of a quest besides von 6 where having a tank would be preferred to having another caster, and I can't think of one.

Well, at high levels, when you know the quest well, that may be true. When you are actualy exploring a quest, discovering what's in it etc.. and at lower levels a tanks is astoundingly important. They don't run out of offense and their skills are generaly applicable to whatever situation. If your party gets suprised by something the casters can go down fast. The tanks can take an unexpected beating and hang in there. They never have to wory about wasting mana by using a spell the mob turns out to be resistant or immune to.

In DDO where we get to know quests like the back of our hand, casters can use their spells hyper efficeintly and trump just about anythingn by attacking its greatest weakness. At lower levels most casters just don't have the SP needed to off all the monsters in a dungeon.

[sigtrent]

you are absolutely right! i agree to all of what you just said. my splashed rogue isn't as good as a pure rogue because i spent feats on melee as opposed to just traps etc. my barb isn't as good as a pure barb either, fun to play but not as effective. most most effective
.

I belive the words "kill as good as any tank" escaped your keyboard in reguards to your rogue. I'd take your mulit rogue over a pure skill rogue any day. You don't need pure skill rogues in DDO any more than you need pure healer clerics. What you need are characters that are usefull in all situations. Characters that can kill mosnters, defend the party, and overcome quest challenges pretty much in that order. Offense is better than defense in D&D and in DDO. (Well, in real D&D all offense could mean you have a dead character but that's somewhat meaningless here)

toons are my pure builds because of their specific focus.

That's the thing though. You name just about any focus in game, and I can probably make a multi class character that does it better than any pure class character. Barbarian and sorcerer are possibly the only exceptions as they are truly hyper specilized classes. Cleric isn't specilized at all.

i believe the cleric to be the single most important player in a group, due to the ability they posses, efficient healing.

One of many abbilities. The strongest healing builds are not pure clerics. Multi classing paladin actualy makes clerics better healers, as does a level of sorcerer. Makes them better damage casters too, but hurts thier CC abbilities somewhat. If you really know the game mechanics you can make all kinds of interesting characters.

[GeneralDiomedes]

then that must be a lot of people because for some reason the lfm is always filled with groups waiting for a cleric.

Which is why is so much fun to be an elitist

Seriously though, some of us have been playing the game for over a year and a half. Questing without a Cleric is not a big deal.

Also LFMs also represent only a portion of currently running groups, and are mostly composed of total strangers who have no idea what the other member's capabilities or styles are. Healbots represent A way to complete a quest, one that almost always works.

THAT's why you see groups waiting for a cleric.

[Ghoste]

Now clearly the melee can keep going all day and the caster has a limmited ammount of casting, so I'm not saying that a caster can simply replace the roll of a melee,

Oh yeah? I thought that's what charm spells were for: recruiting canon fodder to do a little tanking for you.

[Impaqt]

Oh yeah? I thought that's what charm spells were for: recruiting canon fodder to do a little tanking for you.

Not to mention the ability we have to leave a quest for as little a 2 minutes and come back in with a Full Mana bar.

[Ghoste]

then that must be a lot of people because for some reason the lfm is always filled with groups waiting for a cleric.

You sound surprised at this. Took me quite a while to realize I didn't need a cleric. And I really don't.

So if I don't need a dedicated healer in the party, and you do, why is that?

[MondoGrunday]

i realize i'm preaching to the choir in this forum , but i'm certain if you polled all of DDO what groups prefer I think we can all agree the overwhelming majority would be clerics not battle clerics. not saying a battle cleric can't be effective, in my first post i said i've grouped with some, but sadly they are the minority.
i'm gonna roll a battle cleric to see first hand, im going to name him Gimped Healer okay the name is a joke but i will roll a battle cleric and put my money where my mouth is. i'm certain a pure cleric will heal more effeciently at this point lets see if I change my tune by lvl 10.

ps anyone wanna run ww tonight

[MondoGrunday]

You sound surprised at this. Took me quite a while to realize I didn't need a cleric. And I really don't.

So if I don't need a dedicated healer in the party, and you do, why is that?

"i sound surprised"??? not sure where that is coming from but whatever
i never once said i "need" a dedicated healer. I said I "prefer" read more closely before putting false words in my mouth.
i hate adolescent arguements because they always get away from the arguement at hand and try to baffle with bull *****

[juniorpfactors]

would your on the wrong server sorry

[Ghoste]

Perhaps I should have said something like "you think this surprises anyone?"

Of course a lot of people think they need a dedicated healer.

Does that make it right? In my opinion, absolutely not. That just means, to me, that there are a lot of people leaning too heavily on crutches, not realizing the potential of their characters.

When I group with people who are not dependent on a dedicated healer, the quests go a lot smoother. Ironically, people tend to die a lot less, quests get done faster and easier. That is what people are keeping themselves from. And you're right, it's a huge amount of people holding themselves back. Such a pity, really.

[narizue]

Sorry, but my pure Sorc, who wears stoneskin, displacement, heavy fort fearsome, resists, and prot when needed, can still be hurt pretty bad in one shot, and in that situation, there better be a cleric around to heal me, or I'm going to need one to rez me, and that's just dumb. I mean come on, I'm jumping around like a jackrabbit trying to avoid the huge mob chasing me while they die in one of my spells, I don't have time to stop and drink a pot, that's just going to get me killed.

Just in case no one has mentioned this yet. Drink it while you are jumping around like a jackrabbit.

[Beefcakes]

Did an elite reaver raid where I was the only cleric using my battle cleric. Whole party made it through the quest alive and well. Sorry to hear you can't find a decent cleric, let alone a good battle cleric.