Questions on building a CC/Healing Bard

[Riekan]

I've been playing DDO since Beta and have always been impressed with what a good Bard can bring to the party. I am interesting in trying one out, but am not as familiar with their abilities as I am with the more melee type builds.

I'm looking to create a Bard that is very good at crowd control, can buff the party, and has as many songs as I can get. I am also interested in trying out the healing side of things, so would like to fill in for the cleric where needed. I have no interest in melee fighting with this character. I know that properly built Bards can be good at fighting, and the Warchanter looks cool, but I have many other capped melee types and am looking to try a different style of play.

My questions are:

If I went with a Drow, is an 18 starting charisma enough to be able to land all my spells consistantly at the higher levels, or should I go with a 20? I don't want to gimp my other stats, but if I'm not interested in melee does it matter if strength and dexterity are sitting at 10s? I do have both drow and 32 point characters if that matters.

Which feats should I be looking at? I'm only looking at 5 feats total as a drow, 6 as a human, so I want to make them count. I would most likely be putting UMD into the build for heal and raise scrolls on the cleric replacement side of things, so skill focus:UMD would most likely be one of them.

On the question of skills... I was thinking of maxing out most if not all the charisma based skills that are class skills for a Bard. I'd probably also take jump as I can't stand not being able to move around. Am I missing anything important?

Which spells are useful throughout all the levels. Which are good at the low levels and should be swapped out at higher levels? Are the spell focus feats required in certain schools to make the spells more effective at end game?

What should my target spell point pool be looking like at the higher levels? Does a bard have enough spell points to buff, CC and be a primary healer without going broke on scrolls?

I'm also trying to decide whether to try to fit in either Spellsinger or Virtuoso. Can anyone who's used these at the higher levels let me know the benefits vs. the cost of getting one of them are?

Does Music of the Makers and Music of the Dead land often enough to bother taking them? For that matter, can you actually fit all these enhancements into one build, or do you have to pick and choose. I haven't gotten to the point of trying to spec this out on the character builder yet.

Okay, I think that's enough rambling for one post. If any of the well informed Bards out there could help out a bard-newb, I'd greatly appreciate it.

[Ghost_Aeon]

[QUOTE=Riekan;1409970]I've been playing DDO since Beta and have always been impressed with what a good Bard can bring to the party. I am interesting in trying one out, but am not as familiar with their abilities as I am with the more melee type builds.

I'm looking to create a Bard that is very good at crowd control, can buff the party, and has as many songs as I can get. I am also interested in trying out the healing side of things, so would like to fill in for the cleric where needed. I have no interest in melee fighting with this character. I know that properly built Bards can be good at fighting, and the Warchanter looks cool, but I have many other capped melee types and am looking to try a different style of play.[quote]

Been a whle since I last played a bard, and am working on a build to create another, but almost no matter how you build one you'll likely be able to do most anything in the game, good CC, healing, and even fighting, some being more specialized than others. I'll let the more experienced offer suggestions more in depth than mine as well as rebut some of mine if needed, but based on my experience between way back when and now, I'll afford some answers.

If I went with a Drow, is an 18 starting charisma enough to be able to land all my spells consistantly at the higher levels, or should I go with a 20? I don't want to gimp my other stats, but if I'm not interested in melee does it matter if strength and dexterity are sitting at 10s? I do have both drow and 32 point characters if that matters.

Since the old cap (before drow) was 18, I'd say you might be able to get away with having it at that. Generally speaking, for elite, spells aren't going to land so easy anyways, so while the extra +1 could be the difference, I don't know if it's worth sacrificing other stats, such as strength, which is your carrying capacity (I tend to packrat, so a high Str serves me well) and likely melee to-hit and damage, and dexterity which is your reflex saves, AC, and ranged to-hit. As a drow you're also going to need some extra points for Con so it's not sitting at a 6 (netting you wizard HP). Intelligence depends on what skills you'll want to take and wisdom is you're dump stat.

Which feats should I be looking at? I'm only looking at 5 feats total as a drow, 6 as a human, so I want to make them count. I would most likely be putting UMD into the build for heal and raise scrolls on the cleric replacement side of things, so skill focus:UMD would most likely be one of them.

If you go for Spellsinger, you may get away with not having SF(UMD), and if you're wondering if a 20 cha is worth it, you're probably already looking at SF(Enchantment) and GSF(Enchantment), so there's 2 of your feats already, and both requirements for Spellsinger (only need one of them, but both are on the list). MT and IMT are popular as well, in addition to Heighten and Extend. IMO, Extend may be overrated, but for lower level spells I'd keep Heighten in mind. If you're concidering Warchanter, you'll need Power Attack and I'd suggest Weapon Focus (Piercing) for Rapier use. If you're looking at Virtuoso, then you'll need Negotiator or Skill Focus (Perform) (I think it is).

On the question of skills... I was thinking of maxing out most if not all the charisma based skills that are class skills for a Bard. I'd probably also take jump as I can't stand not being able to move around. Am I missing anything important?

As far as Cha-based skills are concerned, Haggle, Perform, and UMD are perhaps the most important. Bluff may be good for some NPC interactions (such as Thrall of the Necromancer, but your base skill is more than enough without ranks unless you're feared or something). Intimidate is best left to the fighters since you really don't want the aggro (and most tanks have it maxed anyways) and Diplomacy is almost useless as it is. Maybe if Turbine added an NPC that you had to use Diplomacy on to bypass a nasty area or get a nice treasure.

Other skills to keep in mind are Concentration (for the stray mob that's attacking you or when your party is dead or you're soloing) and Listen now that they've made it more useful. I personally like Jump for getting to those hard to reach places, and if you can get a really high Tumble score, now that they've fixed it, you can show off your tumbling skills to other players once more. If you have an extra point, Swim also isn't a bad idea for getting through all those flooded areas in Stormreach.

Which spells are useful throughout all the levels. Which are good at the low levels and should be swapped out at higher levels? Are the spell focus feats required in certain schools to make the spells more effective at end game?

Expedious Retreat, Cure Light Wounds, Otto's Resistable Dance/Sphere, Hold Person/Monster, Charms depending on your play style and group, Haste is always loved and Rage sometimes. haven't played a bard in a while, so that's all I can think of off hand.

What should my target spell point pool be looking like at the higher levels? Does a bard have enough spell points to buff, CC and be a primary healer without going broke on scrolls?

Haven't made it to the high end with a caster yet, so don't know what a bard's should look like. If starting with an 18 Cha and putting all level points into it, then it's just finding the best mana items and charisma boosters, I suppose.

I'm also trying to decide whether to try to fit in either Spellsinger or Virtuoso. Can anyone who's used these at the higher levels let me know the benefits vs. the cost of getting one of them are?

Haven't used yet, but am going for Spellsinger on my Human Bard build.

Does Music of the Makers and Music of the Dead land often enough to bother taking them? For that matter, can you actually fit all these enhancements into one build, or do you have to pick and choose. I haven't gotten to the point of trying to spec this out on the character builder yet.

At current, according to the boards, it lands each time every time, so yes. Also according to the boards, taking Virtuoso (chack the requirements in game, think the Persuasive feat is a requirement for it) is the best way to gain MotD and MoM both early and to have enough points left over for other popular enhancements.

[maddmatt70]

ummm, let me clarify some of what the last player posted some of which is accurate and some well not. My bard is a healing/cc specialist and I have logged countless hours playing her. My first question for you is do you want to be a healing bard first and then cc specialist second or cc specialist first and then healing bard second because it does make a difference.

Yes, since you have no interest in melee by all means max out your primary casting stat charisma - this is no different then any wiz, sorc, or cleric who is a caster orineted cleric. You need every spell point and dc point that you can get as a healing/cc bard. I would go 14 levels of bard primarily because the level cap is going up to 16 within the next 1-3 months. Only straight bards will get 6th level spells when it is at 16th level otherwise I might have advocated for 1 level of sorc for the spell points.

Fascinate (Undead and construct fascinate enhancements have the same effect) is the most powerful spell effect in the game because it has such a high dc for monsters. the fascinate undead enhancement is a must for a bard as glitterdust is the only spell other then healing spells which a bard has that effects undead and there is a ton of undead in the game. You don't have to have the fascinate constructs (makers) as there are only a limited number of constructs in the game really only current areas where there are constructs is the labratory and mentau pre-raid.


Spellsinger is highly recommended for this build: +100 sp, +2 umd, etc.
Must have feat: empower healing - if you are serious about doing some primary healing that and and some nice devotion gear.

I would not recommend heighten because you can get away with casting 3rd, 4th, and 5th level spells for most of your cc and heighten only raises it a level or two, but this might change with 6th level spells.

Quicken is not a bad feat to have, but you might not have the spell points to take it that is up to you. You can heal like crazy with quicken and dancing ball has lengthy casting time - this speeds it up.

Spell penetration and greater spell penetration are currently not very necessary in the current 13-14th level dungeons, but will probably come into play in the next module so be prepared to swap a feat for at least spell penetration when that comes out.

You must be able to cast a heal scroll (ressurection without failure is nice too -7th Level spells)) without failure so however you can get that done. Head of good fortune, delaras tomb necklace/titan gloves/dragon cloak, feat skill focus umd, etc...

You are not a sorceror with 1700+ sp so getting up into the 1100-1250 sp range is a good goal (try to hit 1200 if you can). I would recommend mental toughness 1 and maybe 2 for this reason unless you have alot of mana pots and resources - you will have to figure out if this is right for you.

Spell focus enchantment is not required. I don't have it. I do have a 34 charisma, typically have spell singer +1 dc up and have either a +1 enchantment or +2 enchantment item (dreamspitter) on. I am also a healing bard first cc bard second so you might want to grab it once anyway.

Extend: is a good feat to have for buffing purposes especially if you are hasting like crazy
I like drow for this type of bard/build - just don't short change constitution. Having nice hit points and fort save is very important at end game.. Constitution should be your #2 stat.

Spells: 5th level Otto dancing sphere, cure lt mass, mind fog. 4th Level: hold monster, greater heroism, displacement, cure critical. 3rd level: haste, fear/charm monster, cure serious, rage. 2nd level: blur, glitterdust, cure mod. 1st level ottos irresistable dance. The rest is not worth mentioning for the most part although hypnotic pattern, charm person, hold person are good for low levels...

One final thing about spells: displacement is your best healing spell...

Skills: concentration, perform, umd, maybe 1 social skill (it is debatable whether you would want any more then one because generally you have the option of multiple social choices and social skills are only so valuable in the game), haggle (will lessen scroll costs), and jump/balance/tumble/etc...

[Bunzy]

These look like great suggestions. I too was interested in creating a bard and this has helped me SOO much. I just want to say Thank you! Oh, and displacement isn't a heal spell..... /runs and hides

One question: What would be a good spell choice for the first level?

Are these good starting stats?:
Str 8
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 20

[RichD]

As to a starting spell, it takes so little time to get to second level when you get your next spell that I would think about which 2 spells you want to have at second level then pick one of them to start with. You won't have to live with just that one for very long.

Personally I like to have Cure Light and Hypno as my first two spells. If I expect to solo through first level then I like Hypno as my first spell to ensure I can fight one-on-one. If you expect to be in a party Cure Light may be more useful - depending on the party makeup.

[Bunzy]

As to a starting spell, it takes so little time to get to second level when you get your next spell that I would think about which 2 spells you want to have at second level then pick one of them to start with. You won't have to live with just that one for very long.

Personally I like to have Cure Light and Hypno as my first two spells. If I expect to solo through first level then I like Hypno as my first spell to ensure I can fight one-on-one. If you expect to be in a party Cure Light may be more useful - depending on the party makeup.

So Hypno @ lvl 1 and CLW @ lvl 2? I usually solo lvl 1 doin' all the easy lvl 1 quests (low road, aspiratants' corner, Goodblade's etc)

(Sorry for kinda hi-jacking the thread)

[jkm]

These look like great suggestions. I too was interested in creating a bard and this has helped me SOO much. I just want to say Thank you! Oh, and displacement isn't a heal spell..... /runs and hides

actually it is. in gianthold, its worth a csw or a ccw cast every other monster swing. one of my bards is healing focused and i carry rage, displacement, haste, fear etc to maximize party damage and minimize the damage that the party takes. with most of the hjeeling enhancements and the gauntlets of eternity, my mass clw pop for 134 on at least some of the people around me all the time.

[nbhs275]

if all you want is healing and CC drow spellsinger is what you want. Max charisma, get MT, IMT, extend, Empower healing and maybe a fighting feat.

Keep your healing enhancements maxed, and a either a blue dragon armor(for crit ranges) or reaver gloves equipped.

Fear and suggestion mass are probably your best spells to be wiping around, seeing both are fast and effective. Don't worry about heighten, as it eats up more mana then its worth. casting fear twice is more effective then one heightened one.

[Bunzy]

actually it is. in gianthold, its worth a csw or a ccw cast every other monster swing. one of my bards is healing focused and i carry rage, displacement, haste, fear etc to maximize party damage and minimize the damage that the party takes. with most of the hjeeling enhancements and the gauntlets of eternity, my mass clw pop for 134 on at least some of the people around me all the time.

Well that makes sense. I guess i was wrong then. But so far, I got to lvl 2 and my bard seems to be faring pretty well, although its basically been soloing and/or groups who are halfway finished by the time my stupid computer loads so far so its hard to tell.

[Alshatar]

I also would like to say TY for the info in this post. I also am interested in making a CC/Heal bard. I have pallies and clerics and a ranger and they can all heal so I feel wierd if I can't heal. I agree with most of the feats, and they can be changed out if necessary, but one question? I made a bard a long time ago that didn't make it past level 4. I was told by a friend with a good bard to go with "spell focus: Enchantment" over "spell penetration" .. Are they both good to get? I know all the spells are enchantment based, or a good majority of them are so which would you guys suggest? I am going drow (I have yet to make a drow toon, and I have 2 humans and the rest are elves) so my base stats are with a maxed out CHA and about a 16 int and upon toon creation I was able to max out UMD/Haggle/Bluff/Tumble/Listen and a fair few others. I stuck most of the rest of the points into CON for concentration checks which my cleric fails religiously (I didn't build her, a friend did and left the game and I got his account) so I'm not too confused with feats or with skill points - I'm more: What do I do with starting stats? I have lots of +4 items for str/dex/int/cha so I don't see too much of a problem with raising the stats once I get going, but how do you start? I would like her to be able to get an INT rune and a CHA rune in vons 3 or XC. I was in a party the other day on my ranger and the wizzie didn't even turn off the int runes *bleh*

I love the fact you get to choose which stat reflects saves, so this so helps rogues (cha higher than wis usually) and bards (usually int higher than dex) and even wizzies (reflex save yeah now on wizzies!) on the next mod of course.

TY for any help


PS: I used to have it written down, but can someone put up the min req for spellsinger?

[Alshatar]

Maybe if Turbine added an NPC that you had to use Diplomacy on to bypass a nasty area or get a nice treasure.

Crucible?

[Blind_Skwerl]

VoN 2 also.

[Bunzy]

Ok, My bard is nearing lvl 3, so I'm wondering what's a good spell to take when he does reach the next level?

[Westerner]

Great info in this thread.

Would appreciate if some of the experienced bards would post their builds.

I am looking to make a bard with emphasis on the following in descending order: 1) CC 2) Healing 3) Buffing 4) combat.

[Snoggy]

I found this thread rather informative. Thank you.