The Twitch Game - Do you like it? Be heard!

[akla_thornfist]

i do like the twitch thats incorporated into the game the only problem with it is some folks are not good at it, this is a group game and if you have some that cant do the jumps or swim its gonna hurt the whole group but only in a few quest. lets get the required twitch factor stuff to a minimum so it wont affect group play.

[DSL]

I love that DDO combat is about more than: target MOB, walk up, auto-attack, monitor health bars and cooldown timers until it's dead (or you have to run away). I love that you have to move around, that you can actively dodge some attacks, that facing is important, etc. For the most part, in DDO you don't need good skills, but you often will be a lot more effective with them, and most players do learn them over the course of their first few levels. I would like to see more of this in combat, but perhaps modified by your character's skills/stats. For example, having Dex and armor encumbrance affect how quickly your character can maneuver (affecting acceleration and turn speed). A high tumble skill should have a more direct effect in a combat, perhaps boosting AC, or making a Tumble vs. Hit roll opposed check to even get an attack roll. A high Str might give you a chance to shove opponents backward, or of course prevent them from shoving you back. I wouldn't want huge disparities, but enough to feel that a high or low stat/skill will make a difference.

However, I likewise wouldn't want the stats to do all the work, and I like the fact that my own split-second decisions and skills matter. I understand that some people don't like this, but this to me is one of the defining ways in which DDO distinguishes itself from other MMO's. (and to some extent makes itself more "niche" - I know one person who was an avid EQ and CoH player, who simply couldn't handle the DDO twitch factor, and quit because of it). Should above-average skills be necessary for a quest? I would say no, as any quest should be doable by at least the average person (though of course easier for the above-average). The Pit doesn't really need good twitch skills, though it's a lot less frustrating that way, and what is really useful there more than good jumping skills is a good spatial sense, i.e. a good 3-D sense of direction. If a quest requires such skills for completion (and by require I mean prohibitively difficult without it) then this is perhaps a problem. That said, I for one don't have a problem with such a quest that might be easy for some while frustratingly difficult for others, provided such quests remain uncommon (and probably unwise for a raid to be one such)

[GeneralDiomedes]

I like twitch for a few reasons.

It adds to replayability. When things are happening quickly, they are never the same way twice.

It is basically the only thing that can still make the game difficult after you have all the plat, all the equipment, the best build and you know what's coming next.

It heightens my personal sense of accomplishment.

It can provide some equalization between builds and equipment levels.

The only real downside is when a quest requires someone who doesn't have twitch skills to perform a certain task.

[DSL]

[...]It adds to replayability. When things are happening quickly, they are never the same way twice.

It is basically the only thing that can still make the game difficult after you have all the plat, all the equipment, the best build and you know what's coming next.

It heightens my personal sense of accomplishment.

This is ultimately what it's all about. While I can understand the frustration of the twich-challenged, the sense of accomplishement one can get from it is a huge factor. Any game must find a balance between simply watching the computer play things out on its own, and being completely coordination dependant. Really the focus of this thread is how well DDO has found that balance.

[Pfamily]

Not certain that you could have our combat and movement system w/o using twitch, and I really think DDO offers the best of these among the MMOs available today.

In favor of twitch, regardless of where my fat fingers happen to end up on the keyboard.

[EazyWeazy]

My characters have superior twitch skills, alas I do not. Events inside the game should be mostly influenced by my characters' skill - not my rl twitch skills, my internet connection or PC.

That said, I do like the DDO combat system better than the few others that I have tried.

My frustration is with some of the Mario Brothers fun. If my character has a high jump and high dex, I should be able to get where I need to be. The reality is that my character is handicapped, by my big fingers on this laptop keyboard.

My thoughts exactly

[liamfrancais]

Cant say I am a fan for or against the twitch, I have ran in the pit a few times always behind saying what level are you on and how do I get there oh better drink a pot and I have never been in the new raid. What interests me is the way one person will post that a quest is to hard it sucks I am leaving and the next will be the Blah blah quest is too easy make it harder yada yada, so different strokes for for different folks. Do agree there should be a margin of error built in for system latence and mechanics, if I could do it probably be better with a console controller for the twitch.

[Laith]

different strokes for for different folks.

i LOVE the twitch gameplay. like many others, twitch and puzzles are some of the main reasons i'm here.

i do, however, realize that not everyone wants the quest to hinge upon their twitch skills. making raids based on non-volunteer twitch gameplay isn't cool IMO. When you can choose who does what, it's fine. Best when you can choose AND only a select few need to participate.

[oronisi]

I LOVE the twitch factor, but can agree with those that point out that DnD is about a character's skills, not the player. But since no other MMO out there has what I need, I'll continue to invade DDO for my fix.

[MysticTheurge]

For a tabletop comparison, I also take umbrage with those DMs who expect you, the player, to be as eloquent as your +50 Diplomacy, 27 Charisma Bard and penalize you if you're not a public speaker on par with Ghandi or MLK Jr.

[HumanJHawkins]

Do you like the twitch factor? Would you like to see more of it? Do you hate it? Be heard!

I like it BUT: Repetitive stress injuries are a serious problem for a lot of gamers. There need to be more and better options to remain relevant without having to twitch all the time.

For example, why can't auto attack just keep swinging even when the one specific target has moved away or died... I often have to choose between hurting my wrists, or standing there ineffective because a different baddie moved in front of me.

Or, why can't casters select a particular spell as their current attack option, and just be able to tab-select a target and turn auto-attack on and off to control whether they want the spell to fire off?

And, can the rotate speed for the keys be adjusted somehow? It is so slow, that even with auto-run, I have to use the mouse a lot... I'm thinking the turn rate should work something like the original Doom, which didn't have a mouse mode and worked quite well...

Anyway, twitch is the only way to let players get full action out of their toons, and is good. I just wish it weren't required as often as it is.

[arcane_nite]

I love twitch. Without hasted, jumping fireballs I would be lost.

I tried LOTR and the fighting style in that game made me want to kick myself in the.........

[Lizardgrad89]

There are three main issues here.

Lag. Self-explanatory.

Money. If the game is twitch based, it becomes an arms race for who can get the best computer/mouse/gamepad setup. That costs money. Hate to lose to someone I am better than because his mommy is a doctor who bought him a $5000 super gaming computer.

D&D is a BRAIN game. The focus should always be on the strategy employed, rather than on the ability to, say, walk a tightrope.



When I want to play a reflex based game, I play Sonic or Madden. If I want to play a brain game, I play Civilization or DDO. DDO is neat because it gives you a little reflex to go with the strategy, but if it ever went to where the reflex was more important, it wouldn't be D&D anymore, and there wouldn't be any reason for me to be here.

[Borrigain]

Coming from a background of FPS games, the twitch is the most amazing draw for me to stay with this game. How many times I'm last man standing cuz twitch saved my life, I can't even begin to count. For me, it completely defines the "immersion factor" in the game. I actually feel like I have control over my toons actions, and I'm not just watching a movie.

That said, however, I DO NOT feel twitch should be "required" to accomplish things in the game. After all, not everyone comes from "twitch" backgrounds, and those people should not be "punished" for not possessing those skills. I believe Turbine has found a unique balance and shouldn't mess with it. At the same time though, they should not design puzzles/dungeons that cannot be accomplished sans twitch.

Abbott is fun for me, but others in my guild fear getting sent to a platform. Now, making platforms mandatory, only hurts them. This I can not abide. It bums me out that my brain says "oh no, party wipe coming cuz so-n-so got sent to asteroids" -- even though verbally I try to offer only encouragement. Now if we could "choose" who went where, different story, increased chance of success. Heck, even in the pit, I volunteer, since I know I like that kind of play. But to "force" non-twitcher to have to do it is not a good call.

Just my 2....well....3 cp.
Borr.

[QuantumFX]

Wow this is a toughie...

I do like the fact that we can dodge arrows. And since the baddies can do it as well i consider it fair.

What I don't like is the rationale that twitch skills = touch AC. If that was truly the case then DEX should be a totally meaningless stat. There should be no evasion, and no dex bonus to AC because both those abilities represent moving out of the way.

I also don't like Turbine's continued nerfing of the opportunities to use the jump skill. Missing safe spots, moving ladders, etc. If a level appropriate character isn't supposed to be able to make a jump that's fine but if a higher level comes in for a lootrun/raid then don't destroy their fun of using the tools they have available. This is what causes "retributive DM" accusations to fly.

[Poobah]

I think one of the posters had the right idea of an OPTIONAL - target and press jump type sequence.

I hate trying to make jumps in the desert and falling down some canyon. I'm sure that the people in my group hate it too, even if they are kind enough not to make it a big issue.

After a few incidents, I started bypassing quests where a lack of twitch skills would stress my group.

I am normally a Civilization, Sim City, RR Tycoon type of gamer so I guess I never really developed those types of skills. I tried DDO because I have played AD&D since the late 70s and had a basic understanding of how things went together.

I do like the DDO type combat system. I play Paladins so I don't have as many fighting options (bash, trip, sap, power attack...) as a regular fighter might have. The combat system works well for me because I can swing, cast a LOH, and then swing again.

During my PnP days, the groups generally tried to stay in character when playing. If an 8 Intel character tried to invent Napalm, the other players would remind the player that people with less than average Intel didn't tend to be inventors.

Who should really be working the mastermind game? The Barbarian or the Rogue? If I were a developer, I would probably require a minimum Intel and/or Wisdom score to play the game.

Then again, I wouldn't design dungeons where reavers, slimes, spiders, mephits and other assorted baddies coordinated their attacks.

Am curious how you want that implemented?

A)
Do you want jumping automated? Get close to an edge and it jumps for you?

I played games that do that but to me that would take away a big part of the fun of DDO game mechanics.

B)
Or is it just a matter of quest design not requiring lots of jumping etc. To that I say there are lots of people that love quests like the Pit. It is personally one of my favorite quests. It a small percent of the quests that require it just avoid them. There some quests I don’t find enjoyable so I don’t run them often am not going to ask them to be removed.

The Abott raid is the only place I see for complaint because of the randomness factor. I thing it a bit too much to require 12 people to all have be able to do any 3 puzzle or it time to start over if the wrong people get the puzzle.

Am really curious what people mean by stat base approach using jumping as an example. Is it A or B or is there another idea am not thinking of that you mean?

[Spectralist]

What I don't like is the rationale that twitch skills = touch AC. If that was truly the case then DEX should be a totally meaningless stat. There should be no evasion, and no dex bonus to AC because both those abilities represent moving out of the way.

I'm generally a fan of the twitch, but i don't like that either. My 34dex ranger should be much more able to dodge rays & touch attacks then my 8 dex paladin with adamantine body type. And that some of the rays are entirely unresistable make it all the more frustrating. I shudder to think what will happen if they start giving generic caster mobs polar ray.

[Affront]

I enjoy the 'twitch' aspects of the game. Othewise what impact do I - the player - have on my characters in the game? Without my needing to do the timing, the positioning, the targeting (though sometimes aim-at-target is nice with using a bow) I don't think I would have very much fun.

[Raithe]

I think the realtime aspect of DDO's gameplay is not only desirable, it's the fundamental aspect of the game that sets it apart from any other RPG label. It's also why some of us have a hard time letting go...

I have some comments about realtime gameplay vs. what people complain about:

1) If you aren't good at twitch play, why are you playing DDO? This game is a FPS. I wish it had been a little more than that, but the entire game is currently built around that concept. If you like realtime RPG-ing a lot but don't have the typing skills to be a rogue, why not be a low-dex fighter-type or mage?

2) Toolbars. Everytime I see a screenshot with the interface unhidden, there are toolbars all over the screen. Are people completely unfamiliar with using the macro key system? It has to be affecting twitch play ability with all those buttons just waiting to be accidentally clicked...

3) Difficulty. The difficulty levels of the game (normal, hard, or elite) should have been realtime speed and challenge difficulties for the player, not a measure of the amount of MMO grind accomplished on the character. When people have talked about "elite" only being for the elite players, I have always laughed. For me, the elite difficulty is no different than normal. I am disappointed when anyone chooses a difficulty other than "elite," because decent gameplay is nearly identical no matter what difficulty is chosen. Choosing normal is usually a concession that "well, we're going to zerg this without a care in the world, and don't want to have to pay the price." (Unless, of course, it's the only option available.)

Just my opinions.

[Samadhi]

Yup, its one of the main reasons i prefer this to other MMOs.

/signed - Twitch play is where DDO excels and THE reason I am playing it instead of NWN2.