the death of the boards....

[Cheg]

You need to read these forums more often Raithe, apparently your missing a lot of dev responses.

They've told us some spells that are being released in mod 6. They've told us some of the feats. They've told us that guild housing will be around after it's been tested on Lotro. They've told us the update on Monks, the update on the level cap.

Do you want every smidgeon of additions listed months in advance?

[MysticTheurge]

That answers how many example questions I had in my previous post?

So basically you want answers to your questions or nothing counts. Unless it's specifically the information you want (which you can carefully tailor to ensure it's things that they haven't answered, or perhaps even things they can't answer) then there's no plan and it's all going to hell in a handbasket.

Forgive me for not seeing your side of things.

[Weedo]

i agree with the op here, the ddo boards are definitely less than what they used to be. thats why they added this new "most recent post" thing on the front of the forum page. cause they know that your server boards suck and are becoming dull beyond belief.

[Raithe]

So basically you want answers to your questions or nothing counts. Unless it's specifically the information you want (which you can carefully tailor to ensure it's things that they haven't answered, or perhaps even things they can't answer) then there's no plan and it's all going to hell in a handbasket.

Forgive me for not seeing your side of things.

The point I was trying to make was that "we are going to the Planes" doesn't really answer any of the important questions about content. Of course I'm biased as to what is important and what is not - it's one of those hazards of having an opinion and writing it out for others to see.

The big question still sitting in front of me is that "do they have a plan or not?" I honestly can't tell. They seem to be coming to the forums a lot to "poll" players on what they want from DDO. That seems to suggest to me that they aren't sure what to do with DDO right now, and are guaging how disruptive any trial maneuvers are going to be. They probably don't have a lot of slack with playerbase numbers to work with.

But then I could just be imagining that, and wasting my time in these discussions...

...except that it's all in the name of MMO science.

[MysticTheurge]

The big question still sitting in front of me is that "do they have a plan or not?" I honestly can't tell.

Seriously?

Ok, then maybe I can clear it up. You pretty much can't run a business of any sort without a plan.

What do you think they do all day, just sit around each coding up some stuff that they feel like working on today? And then maybe after a while there's enough stuff to "release" a "mod"? The people who are coming to the boards and polling players are mainly two people who were hired specifically to do that and then bring the feedback back to everyone else. Would you rather they didn't include our feedback in their planning?

I guarantee you they spend more time than we do planning what should happen next.

[Borror0]

Ok, I cannot stand seeing people bashing on a friend like this anymore.

I'll not lie and I'll admit that he didn't express himself very well. You'd meet him in-game and you'd never say what you guys said about him, he's a good player and a really nice person. He's one of the many reasons I've joined Maelstorm.

So here I go.

In the few last weeks, the biggest guilds from Tharashk just melted down. All that is left is a handful of players, the least active one. Amen, the biggest one of them all was reduced to 3-6 players on a saturday night. This is bad, it wasn't about internal problem, no one left the guild because of a fight. Nothing of that kind, peopel left the game. People went inactive.

That's what Jr is saying: people are leaving the game due to bad design.

The Abbott's raid was a mess. I've seen a bunch of rading guild giving up on him because it eas a mess. Not too hard, not too expensive, a mess. When you cannot complete the puzzles and you need to use Mnemonic Enhancers, something is wrong with your raid.

Right now, the current Abbott isn't better. The puzzles need to be toned down a bit because very few people can complete them... out of luck. Not being able to complete a raid because you cannot solve the puzzle like the Reaver was is something. Not being able to complete the raid because one puzzle needs luck, insane cooperation and high twitch skills and because the two other puzzle are, while not impossible, really hard as the odds of completing them are under 50%. There is a certain ammount of twitch skills that I love in this game. However, this is above the ammount I can accept.

This is well above what most players can accept too.

If that raid would only be about discovering the Abbott's weakness, solving a puzzle. It might not be that. But right now, it's pretty near impossible.

The Wall of Fire nerf in DToV is also not helping. Most of the player base is sick and tired of quick and easy fixes. Of shortcuts that makes the game boring. Shadow are hard to kill right. Like MT said, they are not an hard ecounter. They are simply long and annoying to kill. Casters were using WoF because they are nearly untargetable. You target them, press the right key... and they're an unavailable target... Again, there is a minimum of twitch skills in this game that I love. The dynamic combat is awesome. that's why we all love it all so much. But the developers are taking bad descisions, that's what Jr wanted to say.

Then he said the forums are dead. You guys argued that they were not. I can tell you that they are. Usually, I log on at noon and check a few thread that interests me. I pick the most interesting ones... right now, I'd have time for them all. The most affected are the class forums. There has been one post in the fighter forums since Monday... that's not normal. Yeah, loads of post elsewhere and all that stuff.... but truth is, if fighter forums stay dead all that long, there is a problem somewhere.

You guys then argued that the devs were very active... that's false. While I enjoyed that "linked sentence" of MT, it's not enough. Right now, the player base is dead angry. If you cannot see this... you're blind. It is obvious on the forums and in-game. DoctorWhofan wrote a thread called "I would Like to thank Turbine for Uniting us... In hate". That is very true, people are dead mad about many change and decision that Turbine took. We have waited four months for any end-game content. We get 6 level 14 or more quests. That's not a lot, nor is it enough. Yes, there are also 5 other quests, but these don't grant access to the raid, have inferior loot and are a lesser challenge. Then, add-in bugs, a controversial raid loot system and a bad raid....

You've got there a very dangerous cocktail.

Yes, Codog's work is incredible. Such dedication to satisafying the player base is admirable. Sadly, to quote Jr, "ya i really care that they are fixing rapid reload". Yes, that's great, long waited change. Awesome job Codog... you should be an example to your co-workers. I cannot stress this enough. Right now, the population is angry and we get a "Don't die." I appreciate that Eladrin is leaking information... but he should make a Codog out of himself and explain, explain... a lot. If it's not him, someone has to do it. We need to be calmed down, to be expalined their choices, their views. Why soemthing was made like this, what they think of the difficulty of the raid.

Not a "Don't die."

Great, we know why you made it like this... but the rest? Explain... please?

Again, Jr is a good player. He cares a lot about the game, he's just ****ed off to see so many people leave. To assist to the decline of a game he loves so much. A game the he believes could use some advertising (don't we all?), a game that suffers from a few really, really bad decisions... and no explanations.

You guys have no clue of how often I've heard "I wonder if Turbine wants to empty the game." That's the impression lots of people have... I think it's normal to ask for more Dev reply. Leaking about module 6 is good, make us wait... but what about making us stay?


EDIT: I'll add this. Not only we get a not much communication about this, but threads that offer contrsuctive critisism gets closed.

[Raithe]

Ok, then maybe I can clear it up. You pretty much can't run a business of any sort without a plan.

Here is one of those statements by other forum goers I talked about a few posts back. Let me fix it for you:

Ok, then maybe I can clear it up. You pretty much can't run a successful business of any sort without a plan.

The red part is the one that many of us don't agree on.

What do you think they do all day, just sit around each coding up some stuff that they feel like working on today? And then maybe after a while there's enough stuff to "release" a "mod"?

There are engineers (Codog is one...), there are designers (I think Eladrin is one...), there are artists, and then there are the people who decide what direction DDO is going to take (probably everyone who posts on the forums is included here). The first three groups are probably working on whatever the last group can make up right now (or possibly fixing long standing issues with range weapons...).

The people who are coming to the boards and polling players are mainly two people who were hired specifically to do that and then bring the feedback back to everyone else. Would you rather they didn't include our feedback in their planning?

The feedback I have seen? Yes.

[MysticTheurge]

Not a "Don't die."

Seriously, that's not all he said.

As for the rest, this does seem to be a particularly turbulent time, but I think if we can work it out, we'll all come out better in the end. Contrary to popular belief (and it's that belief that often gets me so upset), the Devs are not out to get anyone, they don't take things personally, they don't want to fight with us, they aren't trying to make us unhappy... and all the other negative motivations that I see so commonly ascribed to them on these boards.

I have to believe they're trying to make a good game. I seriously hope most of the rest of you believe that too, or why the heck are you even here in the first place.

The more constructive feedback, be it positive or negative, we can give to them the better the game is going to be. (I've already made my position on the whole merging and closing threads thing and I definitely agree that that is a huge faux pas on the part of the Moderators.) But, there's a lot of negativity on the boards these days that doesn't serve anyone well. Try to set those feelings aside a bit as you express yourself (the general "you" Borror0, not you in particular) and express them in a way that allows your points to be heard rather than just your tone.

[MysticTheurge]

Here is one of those statements by other forum goers I talked about a few posts back. Let me fix it for you:

The red part is the one that many of us don't agree on.

No. You honestly can't even run a failing business for any decent length of time without some sort of a plan. If you don't plan, you can't even get from day to day.

Obviously, DDO has had planning or we wouldn't be here a year and a half later. Why do you think that would suddenly change?

[Borror0]

I seriously hope most of the rest of you believe that too, or why the heck are you even here in the first place.

I do believe that they are trying to make a good game, however, making a good game isn't enough right now. Like you said, these are turbulent times. I believe that the devs should try to show the player base they do care and try to do something. What Eladrin's doing is not enough.

Honestly, I don't mind that much, I'll live on. Still have lots of the game to explore, lots of alts to cap and gear out. But, I hate to see friends go. I hate to see such discussions on the boards.

We should be suggesting for mod 6... not fixing mod 5...

[MysticTheurge]

I believe that the devs should try to show the player base they do care and try to do something. What Eladrin's doing is not enough.

Given that it's been 3 or 4 days since this whole thing exploded, what else do you expect him (or them) to do?

Any changes that are going to be made have to be discussed at least to some degree. Announcing anything prematurely could be just as disastrous as not announcing anything at all.

To me it seems like Eladrin in particular is being as forthcoming with us as he can about the changes he'd like to make to the raid and openly discuss some of the options that are out there with us.

But what would you like to see him (or anyone else) be doing instead or in addition to what he already is?

[Borror0]

But what would you like to see him (or anyone else) be doing instead or in addition to what he already is?

I'd like to tell me if he beated that raid himself.

How he found it. What the other Devs think of it.
Why there is such an emphasis on the twitch skills.
If the death penalty is there only to force us doing the puzzle or to make the raid harder as a whole.
If it's only for the puzzle, anyway he could remove it for death by the Abbott. You roll a one... -10 to all stats...

I'm sure there is a lot of posts he could comment on... I'm sure it mgith help him if we could discuss it somewhere. I'd like that they would allow us to talk about the Abbott on these forums. The only place we are allowed to is not used that way. It's all about the Death penalty.

I'd try to start a thread... it'd get closed...

[jjflanigan]

I'd like to tell me if he beated that raid himself.

How he found it. What the other Devs think of it.
Why there is such an emphasis on the twitch skills.
If the death penalty is there only to force us doing the puzzle or to make the raid harder as a whole.
If it's only for the puzzle, anyway he could remove it for death by the Abbott. You roll a one... -10 to all stats...

I'm sure there is a lot of posts he could comment on... I'm sure it mgith help him if we could discuss it somewhere. I'd like that they would allow us to talk about the Abbott on these forums. The only place we are allowed to is not used that way. It's all about the Death penalty.

I'd try to start a thread... it'd get closed...

The twitch skills was something new they added to the raid during its design phase. It's sad that many people seem to be upset by it, but they can't just got and change that now without a total redesign of that entire raid

The fact that the abbot discussion thread is all about the death penalty is the fault of the players, not the developers. If the players in that thread would stop making every post be about the death penalty...well, then the thread would be about the abbot raid again.

These types of discussions have been on the boards since they before the game launched. Even during beta and pre-beta people would claiming that DDO was going to die and would never last. No one is ever going to be happy with every change that is made, but there are always other things to do in the game. Also, just a response to your comment about the largest guilds on Thelanis -- last weekend my guild had 15 - 20 people on when I popped online Saturday night on Thelanis.

If any MMO designed everything based upon the vocal majority on the forums, the game would be dead within a couple months, that's why no MMO has ever done that.

If you want to know why they don't give strong details about future plans all the time...you only have to look at the history on these forums. If they say they are going to add something and then it changes...they get crucified. If they say they are going to add something that a few people don't like, those few people seem to make it their life's work to continually post how adding this new feature will "be the death of DDO!!!"

It's better for them to wait til things are more solid and post them up in the WDA. The WDA, as it progresses, gives you an idea of the path of the game for the next couple months. You know we are getting a level increase. You know some of the new spells being added. You know they are planning to send us to the planes. That's a lot of information already being provided, I'm sorry if it's not enough for you, but it's more than you get in a lot of other places.

[MysticTheurge]

The fact that the abbot discussion thread is all about the death penalty is the fault of the players, not the developers. If the players in that thread would stop making every post be about the death penalty...well, then the thread would be about the abbot raid again.

The moderators actually bear the brunt of the responsibility there, if you ask me.

[jjflanigan]

The moderators actually bear the brunt of the responsibility there, if you ask me.

Well, yes, the merging of the threads began the issue. However, they could start another thread JUST talking about the death penalty instead of using the "Abbot raid discussion" thread to keep it going.

[MysticTheurge]

Well, yes, the merging of the threads began the issue. However, they could start another thread JUST talking about the death penalty instead of using the "Abbot raid discussion" thread to keep it going.

People did. But a large portion of the population is going to respond to a question about the death penalty in the thread where a developer post asking it appears.

There's nothing anyone but the moderators can do about that.

[Borror0]

The twitch skills was something new they added to the raid during its design phase. It's sad that many people seem to be upset by it, but they can't just got and change that now without a total redesign of that entire raid.

jj, ever entered that raid?

That raid is mean! Of course the skills are what it's based around, but if they intend it to be run, they've got to change it, period. The way it currently is makes no one happy, no one. I weight my words, no one, doubtlessly. If anyone liks it, I'd be really surprised. It's not that it's hard, it's that it's luck. If you want it to be successful, you have to have 12 players that can make the puzzles. That means they must have the skills to do them. Then, the puzzle require luck, they are so hard that you must be lucky.

Well, some are lucky... but must be done perfectly, there is no room for mistake at all. You miss one Ateroid? Out!! Then, if not all of your 12 players know the puzzle, you have to get lucky enough to get them teleported to the puzzle and the clueless ones to stay on the base.

That means that if someone don't know the raid, he is a serious threat to the success of the raid. That's bad. You don't know it? We'll not want you it. That's how most people are gonig to think. Obviously, it won't be like this within a guild, but this raid won't be PuGed at all, never! This is why you see so much ranting. The ammount of luck and skill needed for this one is just riddiculous.

You say it's sad people are upset by it? I said it bad that they are ****ed off by it.
It's not that they didn't try... it's that htye've given up.

The fact that the abbot discussion thread is all about the death penalty is the fault of the players, not the developers. If the players in that thread would stop making every post be about the death penalty...well, then the thread would be about the abbot raid again.

Yeah, but say I want to bring it to something else? I can't.

I can't make any other thread. That's how it works in a forum... usually. You want to discuss about it? No other thread talking about what you know? Make one... we can't.

That's a bad decision.

These types of discussions have been on the boards since they before the game launched. Even during beta and pre-beta people would claiming that DDO was going to die and would never last. No one is ever going to be happy with every change that is made, but there are always other things to do in the game. Also, just a response to your comment about the largest guilds on Thelanis -- last weekend my guild had 15 - 20 people on when I popped online Saturday night on Thelanis.

I'm not saying doom. I'm saying it's bad.

Fact is: we are bleeding player. Will it be enough to kill DDO, no. Is it bad, yes. Should it be adressed? Yes.

Glad your guild's going strong, but that's not the case of every guild. Mine is still going strong also, not lost one player... yet.

If any MMO designed everything based upon the vocal majority on the forums, the game would be dead within a couple months, that's why no MMO has ever done that.

I think they did this time and it was their mistake actually... remember those "it's too easy posts"?

If you want to know why they don't give strong details about future plans all the time...you only have to look at the history on these forums. If they say they are going to add something and then it changes...they get crucified. If they say they are going to add something that a few people don't like, those few people seem to make it their life's work to continually post how adding this new feature will "be the death of DDO!!!"

Yeah, well I don't think I mentioned that and that'll make me go off-topic anyway.

It's better for them to wait til things are more solid and post them up in the WDA. The WDA, as it progresses, gives you an idea of the path of the game for the next couple months. You know we are getting a level increase. You know some of the new spells being added. You know they are planning to send us to the planes. That's a lot of information already being provided, I'm sorry if it's not enough for you, but it's more than you get in a lot of other places.

Again, I've never asked for more information of that kind... what I want is to explain the reasoning behind their change. Why are we doing this.. or that. When people come and complain, we'd get much less complaining if Devs said: Well, what we wanted to accomplish with that raid was this... the new raid loot system is like this becasue of X, Y and mostly Z.

I don't think I'm asking for the moon.

Just explanation, it'd calm us down.

[jjflanigan]

A lot of the comments in my post don't refer to things you've said, but I was using the type of posts many other people use as a reason for why they don't give a lot of details and information.

Yes, I've been in the raid. No, I do not like how it is designed since lag, computer performance and targetting bugs have more impact on any of the "puzzles" than character or player skills. However, Eladrin said they are monitoring the situation with the puzzles and will change them if it is obvious, to them, that it's needed. I think that fairly soon they will see how bad it currently is for all of us in that raid and they will adjust the timers and such on the puzzles to allow them to be completed (make the goggle puzzle tiles last a lot longer and then drop the duration of the tiles on Hard and Elite...that way it ramps up the "challenge" on those puzzles at the higher difficulties).

I think that if someone went through and pulled out Eladrins comments into a new thread just about changing the death penalty without referring to the -10 you get in the Abbot raid that the new thread would be allowed to stay. The old one got merged because everyone was ranting about the death penalty in the abbot raid and not just talking about the idea of changing the overall death penalty. Yes, it was silly to merge all those threads, but that was a moderator decision, not a developer one, we can't really penalize them for a mistake made with the forums.

DDO has been "bleeding players" for a long time according to the forums. Yet I constantly see new people in game and almost never have an issue finding a group.

The changes to the raid were explained -- they wanted it to be harder and for people not to use dying as a valid "tactic" in the raid.

The changes to the raid loot was because it was the best option they could come up with after they saw that the old way rewarded people for short-manning raids or using "tricks" so that only one or two people were in at the completion to loot the chest. They have said all along that they wanted raids to be huge endeavors with full raid parties, they made this change to try to accomplish that. Do I think they need to tweak the loot generation to prevent 12 man raid parties from getting 0 raid items -- I very much do think that.

[Dane_McArdy]

FACT: The devs barely say anything any more.

FACT: They obviously don't care about fixing the bugs.

FACT: The moderators hardly do anything these days.

FACT: It's obvious no one cares about improving the player's experience or asking us for feedback or telling us what's going on.

FACT: The devs aren't people too.

Obviously this game is going to pot.

Well done!

[Dane_McArdy]

Ok, I'm laying it down on the line for everyone.

The forums are what you make it. If the forums are filled with nastiness, then you have a nasty forum. It is NOT neccessarily a reflection of the game. It's a reflection of the people playing the game.

There are rampent contradicitions on what players want, even amongst some of the best posters, who make the forums a better place. The only difference is they can disagree without having to call anyone names, or take it down to the petty level of "I know you are, but what am I".

The fact is, many people don't give the dev's any reason to feel invested in them. The dev's are, but like Codog has said, and so have other dev's, they don't like to respond to rants and flame threads, because they feel it only encourages people to continue to behave like that.

But you know what, even the good posters have a part in the forums being the way they are, and I'm the biggest offender at times, or was in the past.

And that's giving these people the time of day with a response. I'm working at NOT giving these people something to bite on. Because often that's all they want, is a reaction. And to often in the past, I've given them just what they want, and all it did was to make a rift between people.

Sure, my intentions were good, to get people to see how rudely they were acting. But I know people aren't going to change on the intrawebs. If anything it's just going to make it worse, because they know they are safe and secure, and are not emotionally invested in what I think about them.

It's a two sided coin, the haters, and the people that feed their hate. I say, let them starve!

We want a better forum? We need to start with ourselves first and for most.

Pick a type of thread and learn to ignore them, or least resist posting in them. I read goodbye threads, and if they are rants about the game sucking, I stop reading them, and don't really posts. If they are honest good byes, I wish the person good luck and welcome them back when they do come back.

Look at yourself, ask if you are really helping or hurting, and then work from there.