12 player raid, 6 player prereqs, 6 player pre-raids

[gpk]

Ok it's been discussed before in other ways but I'll bring it up again in maybe a new mod5 light.

It's been suggested that the mod5 Raid Loot changes are to encourage large raids.
That's all fine and dandy I'm not here to discuss that aspect. However:

Mod2, Titan: Flag once, 12 player preraid, 12 player raid
Mod4 Stormreaver: Flag once+ 6 player preraid, 12 player raid from then on
Mod5, Black Abbot: Flag once, 6 player preraidx4 , 12 player raid from then on

Mod1, Velah the Red Dragon: 4x 6 player prereqs (in order) for 2 groups of 6, 12 player
preraid, 12 player raid. Repeat process for next raid.
Mod3 Lailat the Demon Queen: 3x 6 player prereqs (out of order, bankable items) for 2 groups of 6, 6 player
preraid, 12 player raid. Repeat process for next raid.

I think in a near future patch the Velah and Lailat Raids need to have the prereqs removed once and for all, it simply isn't fun splitting into 2 groups to meet up aftwerwards for the actual raid, not to mention it can sometimes be a logistical nightmare. If we are to be "forced" to participate in large (often chaotic) groups to raid, don't force us to split into smaller groups to get there.

I realize there are bigger fish to fry atm and this will once again get lost in the shuffle, but it's something keep in mind for future ugame updates.

[MysticTheurge]

I don't mind the 6-player preraids when they're do once sorts of things (a la Reaver, Abbot), but for VoN and DQ, yeah, absolutely.

I agree that those should be switched to do-once prereqs.

[BlueLightBandit]

Problem is merging story lines...

Reaver... collect sigils to please the big guy that runs around in the gianthold... he'll let you in.

Velah... save the laughing knives... they'll help you in VoN5.

And yet... how many times have I freed Arlos before giving up on him to leave him rot... Besides... my characters are chaotic neutral. I can leave the dungeon any time I want.

Anyway... my point was that the story lines require the recompletion of the prereqs.

(DQ and Titan flow more like the Reaver though... I'm just playing devils advocate)

[slothman911]

I don't mind the 6-player preraids when they're do once sorts of things (a la Reaver, Abbot), but for VoN and DQ, yeah, absolutely.

I agree that those should be switched to do-once prereqs.

And I think a fun way to get perma flagged would be to have done them on elite. You know something like,

Your group has succesfully navigated the path laid out by the laughing knifes and trully proven yourself worthty to confront velah!

[MysticTheurge]

Velah... save the laughing knives... they'll help you in VoN5.

...

Anyway... my point was that the story lines require the recompletion of the prereqs.

Story and repetition don't play well together. I mean, in theory, if you're starting the story over Crag should want all those relics again.

Repetition of quests (OMG Velah's alive and taking over the vault again!!!!) kind of kills the whole story aspect of it. As such, the methods for flagging can be dealt with a little bit outside of the true story of the game. There's no reason you couldn't save the Laughing Knives once and then be able to do VoN any time you wanted.

[barecm]

Enough with the quest before the Raid deal. It is boring and a total waste of time. Just let us do the raids like Reaver and Abbot. I would rather run some of the new content while still raiding every couple days rather than doing all the requirement type quests to do old raids. It is BORING. We can do it once with new toons or those that are new to the game or to the raid, but jeez, after running ATDQ 35 times, it is more of a hassle than a challenge and not fun at all. I have to endure the boredom of the pre-raid quests before getting to the part that we are all interested in. Let's end this absolutely nonsensical requirment Turbine.... please!

[MysticTheurge]

Enough with the quest before the Raid deal. It is boring and a total waste of time. Just let us do the raids like Reaver and Abbot. I would rather run some of the new content while still raiding every couple days rather than doing all the requirement type quests to do old raids. It is BORING. We can do it once with new toons or those that are new to the game or to the raid, but jeez, after running ATDQ 35 times, it is more of a hassle than a challenge and not fun at all. I have to endure the boredom of the pre-raid quests before getting to the part that we are all interested in. Let's end this absolutely nonsensical requirment Turbine.... please!

Do you mean the quests before the raid like VoN 1-4 or quest before the raid like VoN 5?

I kind of like VoN 5/Twilight Forge since they are more in the Tempest Spine vein or actual quests that 12 people can go on. But yeah, VoN 1-4 I could do without having to repeat each time.

[tihocan]

I'm against perma-flag on Velah and DQ. Just because perma-flag = trivialized raid loot (except if there is a long and complex pre-raid most people are unfamiliar with, e.g. the Titan)
You know, the Reaver is fun, but the fact anyone can collect raid items makes these items less "special". At least they're not the best raid items as well, so I think overall it's well balanced.
Similarly, the Abbot loot is not so great... but again, that's understandable since it can be farmed at will (note: this is theoretical, I'd say that the loot is probably not good enough right now given how difficult the quest is, since I doubt it can be farmed at will atm )

I think VoN's flagging is ok currently. It takes less than 1h30 to pug it, no big deal.
DQ is much more of a pain, and I agree it could be lessened. For instance, reduce the required pre-quests to 1 among 3, instead of all 3.

Besides that, I don't see the 12 man thing as an issue. If you're in a guild, it shouldn't be that hard for you to split groups. If you're not, usually the raid is pugged separately anyway.