Consensus: Players want MORE and LESS challenge!

[Pellegro]

OK its obvious in every post, from the death penalty, to the abbott, to whatever ... you've got very, very disparate opinions from the player base. Some want more challenge, better "game design", etc. Others are here for kicks and get mad whenever anything is changed or made more difficult. The dev team seems to be on the former. The majority (no polls or science here, just 'feel') seem to be with the latter.

So instead of all these micro-debates over how to handle issue 'x' or implement quest 'y' or whether raids should be REALLY hard, or doable by anyone who wants to with a week of practice and lots of pots ... I would like to raise the idea again of making elite more elite, and making normal more like normal.

Crank the CR, the death penalty, all that good stuff, crank it all up on elite. Make elite really hard.

Make normal easy - for any social group of 40 year olds (of which there are more than a handful playing this game).

Then simply adjust your favor reward levels so anyone can get them, but add a super-bonus for total favor.

There. Now you've got super challenges for those who want them, and you've got cakewalk for those who find DDO to be enjoyable for the reasons most people play pen & paper D&D (i.e. socializing).

What says the crowd?

[GeneralDiomedes]

I agree 100%.

[Litz]

Until they release Trebuchets everything else will be putting me to sleep.. I thought elves were immune to sleep. Guess I was wrong.

[gelgoog]

agreed.

[Pellegro]

oh, I've got an addendum:

Loot levels on elite should be +2, on hard +1, and on normal, just normal.

Or -2, -1, and 0.

Or you get an extra 2 pieces on elite, 1 on hard, 0 on normal.

or wahtever. You get the idea.

[PurePandemonium]

agreed. One of the better posts I have read in the last few days

[MysticTheurge]

Consensus: Players want MORE and LESS challenge!

Your thread title amuses me.

[Pellegro]

Your thread title amuses me.

lol thx but surely you have something more substantive to add ...

[tomasdarkell]

/Agreed

[MysticTheurge]

surely you have something more substantive to add

Oh alright.

It's a very careful balance. And not one I'm sure it's even possible to balance.

There's already a pretty significant disparity between normal and elite, so I don't know that moving them each further in the opposite direction is a good thing. And even if you did, normal would still be too hard for someone and elite would still be too easy for someone else. I don't think you can achieve a level where those numbers are significantly reduced.

I also don't think adding more disparity while maintaining (or increasing) the differences in loot is a good idea. At some point someone suggested the fairly radical notion that loot should be the same for a quest, regardless of the N/H/E status, thus leaving the difficulty level simply a selector for whether you want something more D&D like or something more teh uberz. It's an idea I kind of like, but I honestly doubt it would fly with the rest of the gaming populace.

So, while your idea seems perfectly valid in theory, I'm not sure it can ever be accomplished in a practical sense.

[SlipperyPete]

What does 40+ have to do with anything? Nice way to cut off a good portion of your audience.

I'm <40 by quiet a bit btw

Besides that sounds good.

[dragonofsteel2]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK its obvious in every post, from the death penalty, to the abbott, to whatever ... you've got very, very disparate opinions from the player base. Some want more challenge, better "game design", etc. Others are here for kicks and get mad whenever anything is changed or made more difficult. The dev team seems to be on the former. The majority (no polls or science here, just 'feel') seem to be with the latter.

So instead of all these micro-debates over how to handle issue 'x' or implement quest 'y' or whether raids should be REALLY hard, or doable by anyone who wants to with a week of practice and lots of pots ... I would like to raise the idea again of making elite more elite, and making normal more like normal.

--------------------------------------------------------oh, I've got an addendum:

Loot levels on elite should be +2, on hard +1, and on normal, just normal.

Or -2, -1, and 0.

Or you get an extra 2 pieces on elite, 1 on hard, 0 on normal.

or wahtever. You get the idea.



Crank the CR, the death penalty, all that good stuff, crank it all up on elite. Make elite really hard.

Make normal easy - for any social group of 40 year olds (of which there are more than a handful playing this game).

Then simply adjust your favor reward levels so anyone can get them, but add a super-bonus for total favor.

There. Now you've got super challenges for those who want them, and you've got cakewalk for those who find DDO to be enjoyable for the reasons most people play pen & paper D&D (i.e. socializing).

What says the crowd?

------------------------


First of all have pugged? These quest not doable by anyone. I have been fine with the level of difficulty in the game. I do not play this game as social game. I play for the fun and challenge, second the problem giving better rewards to those complete the higher levels in turn makes all levels more difficult. The easy way around this been just have server for easy, normal, hard, elite. This way people can go to the server that fits them and everyone gets to play all the material. But guess this idea is to simple. How many post seen need a guide for this quest or this one, or groups loading up with casters and clerics to make quest simple. Everyone seems to look for the fast easy loot to me, although for some reason I take weak groups and still complete the task, kind of creating my own challenge try it sometimes.

Maybe try making weaker builds to complete task? There many ways to challenge your self. Got plenty character slots to build weak and strong ones.

Two solutions in my opinion.

1. Have different levels of difficult for different servers.

2. Challenge your self leave it be with these stupid adding death penalties.

Though everyone here seem to think someone paying same amount in should get the shaft on material or gear if there skill not up to par.

Last how much practice should need in playing a quest to beat it? Sorry if been playing games for along time it does not take more then week to beat decently challenging quest. How many here can run the inferno in 25min on elite? How many in the game can do this? There or challenging quest out there. Also run it the hard way sometimes, wiat the key to your statement was the loot, I see now you want the loot that no one else has.

I've got an addendum:

Loot levels on elite should be +2, on hard +1, and on normal, just normal.

Or -2, -1, and 0.

Or you get an extra 2 pieces on elite, 1 on hard, 0 on normal.

or wahtever. You get the idea.

be special this your way doing it.

So basicly its about having loot that others do not have.

[BlameCandida]

Another part of the solution might include balancing encounters based on party size. I don't know if this is still true, but at the beginning of the game, quest difficulties were based around a 4-person party. So if a group of 6 adventurers with good equipment and controlled by skilled players enters one of these quests, of course it will seem easy, they have 2 extra people.

A mechanic that detects party size, and compensates by adding extra mobs, or making existing mobs harder would increase difficulty without locking out soloists or duos.

Regardless, difficulty should be increased by increasing CR, or mob saves, or trap difficulties. If the AI allowed it, smarter mobs would be a nice fix too -- casters that counter players strategically, clerics that heal mobs, etc.

[QuantumFX]

I'd rather have the challenge cranked up with actual tests of skill and reasoning rather than inflated hitpoints/HD/and over the top punitive on resurrection effects. translation: I want elite to have the same difficulty as hard but with friendly fire for AoEs and Ray attacks.

Also a death debuff is good but it needs -1 (-2/-3 per difficulty level) applied to all stats and an equal number of negative levels that are regenerated at a rate of 1 all stats and 1 negative level per minute rather than this "Shrine or tavern" nonsense.

[Knightrose]

I completely disagree with cranking stats on creatures for Elite purposes.

Most players run quests on elite because the rewards are greater. All it does is force a more narrow path for character builds. It leaves a truckload of tactics, spells, feats and skills in the dust. Turns the game into something that is NOT D&D.

Beef up Elite. I've said a million times in the last 2 years. But remove the CR increase. Buffing the HP and Stats of a monster just to make it tougher is a complete cop out.

[sirgog]

Think you were close with what the player base wants.


I think more tough but not frustratingly tough challenges are what is needed. Pre-nerf Abbot, for instance, (without using the safe spot) was tough but not frustrating - perfect. From what I've heard, that's changed now to frustrating.

[Stonewall]

OK its obvious in every post, from the death penalty, to the abbott, to whatever ... you've got very, very disparate opinions from the player base. Some want more challenge, better "game design", etc. Others are here for kicks and get mad whenever anything is changed or made more difficult. The dev team seems to be on the former. The majority (no polls or science here, just 'feel') seem to be with the latter.

So instead of all these micro-debates over how to handle issue 'x' or implement quest 'y' or whether raids should be REALLY hard, or doable by anyone who wants to with a week of practice and lots of pots ... I would like to raise the idea again of making elite more elite, and making normal more like normal.

Crank the CR, the death penalty, all that good stuff, crank it all up on elite. Make elite really hard.

Make normal easy - for any social group of 40 year olds (of which there are more than a handful playing this game).

Then simply adjust your favor reward levels so anyone can get them, but add a super-bonus for total favor.

There. Now you've got super challenges for those who want them, and you've got cakewalk for those who find DDO to be enjoyable for the reasons most people play pen & paper D&D (i.e. socializing).

What says the crowd?

Or an easy solution would be adding a 4 lvl of quest. They can call it “XP Debt”.

[Kindoki]

I completely disagree with cranking stats on creatures for Elite purposes.

Most players run quests on elite because the rewards are greater. All it does is force a more narrow path for character builds. It leaves a truckload of tactics, spells, feats and skills in the dust. Turns the game into something that is NOT D&D.

Beef up Elite. I've said a million times in the last 2 years. But remove the CR increase. Buffing the HP and Stats of a monster just to make it tougher is a complete cop out.

Why not just change the monsters out all together. If a room has 6 hobgoblin guards in it on normal, why can't the room have 3 trolls in it on hard, and a flesh golem on elite?

edit: and I agree with same loot for each level. that would start to weed out the riff-raff, and bring the game back around to playstyle.

I don't actually pay attention to CR, so I don't know if that is a reasonable ladder that I am describing, but you all get the idea.

[Aspenor]

As a general rule of thumb, players say they want a challenge, but they really don't. Once they are truly challenged, they get up in arms and whine their way into nerfs.

Warforged Titan, anyone?

I submit that the content (ALL the content) is fine as-is, except I would like to see a death penalty put into the game for capped characters to the tone of -1 to all stats cumulative upon each death, pending a rest in tavern. If that's too harsh, implement this form of the death penalty only on elite.

[Savran]

IMO, its the Fun Factor not the Frustration Factor that needs to be looked at when discussing changes like this.

Personally, I like the way things are currently with N/H/E. The one thing I would like to see "added" (I'm tired of seeing things changed! Make more OPTIONS not changes.) is the ability to run any quest at any level and have that quest scale to the average level of the group. This isn't a new and novel idea. It has been quite some time since I left EQ and I forget the name of the expansion that was built this way, but it made for very enjoyable quests that could be run at virtually any level.

Make this another option so you would be able to choose Normal, Hard, Elite, or Scale. I would love to be able to run any quest in the game with capped characters instead of being trapped in certain quests once you get capped.

Stormcleave at a scaled level of 14 would be fun, as would be a vast majority of the forgotten quests in this game.