Consensus: Players want MORE and LESS challenge!

[Pellegro]

Lots of great ideas.

I especially like the idea of having the encounter "scale" to the levels of the party who is entering it. That would be an instantaneous content increase of like 100% since you could go back and replay all the quests from any level, and have a good time of it. A really great idea.

Regardless, I still think treating elite as truly elite, with an appropriate loot bonus, would help some of the issues we see. A level 14 casual player with casual gear is truly 6 or more levels different in effectiveness from a well equipped player, and probably 8 levels from a hardcore grinder with all the raid loot.

Just my 2 cents.. Thanks for keeping things civil.

[BlueLightBandit]

Lots of great ideas.

I especially like the idea of having the encounter "scale" to the levels of the party who is entering it. That would be an instantaneous content increase of like 100% since you could go back and replay all the quests from any level, and have a good time of it. A really great idea.

Regardless, I still think treating elite as truly elite, with an appropriate loot bonus, would help some of the issues we see. A level 14 casual player with casual gear is truly 6 or more levels different in effectiveness from a well equipped player, and probably 8 levels from a hardcore grinder with all the raid loot.

Just my 2 cents.. Thanks for keeping things civil.

The problem is... if it's scaled to be the same difficulty with two people as it would be with four... then what would the point of finding another two people to run the quest.

[Dariun]

Agree as well. Adding more options (level scaling for quests, a "nightmare" difficulty after elite) always sounds good to me.

Making Normal harder or punishing those of us who remember when monitors were green and black and Pong ruled the video game world seems unproductive.

[Gornin]

This game is fine for difficulty. The reason the difficulty does not seem to be there is because you know all the quests. It is a static environment. Knowledge always makes things easier. It is just like any video game. You eventually learn the moves, know where the best weapons are, know what mobs you are gonna fight, etc. Once you learn that and get the twitch skills down, it becomes easy.

If the devs want to make an Insane setting on these dungeons, I'm ok with that, just as long as it is not required for favor or anything else. Just for shiggles. Like PvP.

As for the over 40 crowd, I am 39 and have been playing video games since the beginning. I kick my kids butts regularly at them. Their main goal is to beat me at them. I figure my twitch skills are on par with most. Yes, I like the social aspect of this game too, but I like to win, succeed and develop my toons too.

I like challenge, but it seems that this game, along with others, is starting to cater to the players that play several hours a day(six or more), so they have all the uber loot and have every detail memorized and know the optimum build for any class/race combo. I have a problem with that, in that I pay the same as they do, but have limited time to play. So, it takes me longer to get to same place as the uber players. That is not right to make it harder for me to accomplish the the goals set in the game because of a minority(?) of the population. Maybe its not a minority. Maybe I am in the minority. /shrugs


Like I said. They want to add an Insane level for those people and not make it effect the game, go ahead, just don't force me to do it to get the favor or anything else. Maybe the reward will be bragging rights and maybe wiegh named items to drop a little more often.

I would rather the devs spent the time to get us to 20, get the rest of the core classes and races, fix bugs and add new content before doing this, but maybe it wouldn't be that hard to do and just put a small team on this and let them release the new levels on a few quests every 2 weeks or something. That will be "new content" for the players who want it.

[Pellegro]

The problem is... if it's scaled to be the same difficulty with two people as it would be with four... then what would the point of finding another two people to run the quest.

2 responses:

1. Even if quests are "dumbed down" based on total character levels entering, you will always have an incentive to have a balanced group of 4 - i.e. ftr, healer, caster, other. So if you go in with 2 fighters, and the quest is easier because of that, you're still gonna be better off adding a healer.

2. Why is it a problem if someone wants to duo rather than take 4 people into the quest? I think that the solo & duo groups pay the same as the rest of us. While its great to support grouping, and to have in game support for grouping, and to find ways to facilitate grouping for those who want to group (as most do), I see no reason to go out of your way to make duoing or soloing *more* difficult.

While DDOs original philosophy was "group or else", they quickly changed that tune implementing solo play and solo difficulty levels.

[Pellegro]

I would rather the devs spent the time to get us to 20, get the rest of the core classes and races, fix bugs and add new content before doing this, but maybe it wouldn't be that hard to do and just put a small team on this and let them release the new levels on a few quests every 2 weeks or something. That will be "new content" for the players who want it.

I agree, I wouldn't want this to take away from development time going towards next mod. In fact - I wouldn't want them to "rerelease" stuff tweaked up. I'm thinking more along the lines of just going in and adding more monsters or beefing monsters stats up in the existing quests (on elite), changing a trap here or there to a higher DC and/or replacing fire with force, implementing a different death penalty mechanic on elite, etc.

But it could be considered for long term plans and perhaps when designing mod 7 dungeons.

[sigtrent]

I think that is a pretty good suggestion!

Some quests should be more challenging than others, raids and story conclusions should be toughter... but I don't thinkt here should be any quests that essentaily say "Only the elite players need apply."

I'm fine with quests on elite being very hard and having better rewards. Challenge should be rewarded.

Not to say normal should be a cake walk, it should offer some challenge but certainly anyone who can manage the quest on elite should find normal to be a kiddie park by comparison.

[Gornin]

I agree, I wouldn't want this to take away from development time going towards next mod. In fact - I wouldn't want them to "rerelease" stuff tweaked up. I'm thinking more along the lines of just going in and adding more monsters or beefing monsters stats up in the existing quests (on elite), changing a trap here or there to a higher DC and/or replacing fire with force, implementing a different death penalty mechanic on elite, etc.

But it could be considered for long term plans and perhaps when designing mod 7 dungeons.

The tweaking of the old content to provide what you are saying should be easy in that the structure is already there. Adding more/tougher mobs, higher lethality traps, etc. and call it Insane level. Therefore it should not take a whole lot of dev time, or like I said, just let it be a pet project of of some interns or something. They gotta start somewhere to learn how to do it. That way it shouldn't take alot of dev time, and it will give the uber players something else to do. And I don't mean just beef up some things, I mean change mob types, trap damages and types, save or die poisons with stat damage if you save, Add a couple of shrines for the insaness factor, no xp debt or penalty for dying it is so bad. I mean make Search for the Scroll a DC of 6 and let level 1 and 2's open it and try to see how uber they really are. Let it be opened at any time by any player(s) who want to try it.


I'm not against uber players or zergers, I just don't want it affecting my average self and my play. It is all about the fun, and it becomes less fun when the game is changed for everyone who doesn't like doing stuff that way. They just need to let there be or add more options.

[akla_thornfist]

i think they should add another diffulculty to all the quest get rid of the solo option and make it scale like this, novice, normal, hard and elite. id make the raids like this as well that way people could work out the kinks on novice level. i would not give favor for novice and scale the loot -5 to level.

[Raithe]

There is already a super easy "normal" setting. It's called taking level 7's into Water Works or Baudry's.

There is already a super elite setting. It's called taking level 5's into Xorian Cipher, or maybe Stromvauld's Mine on hard.

Oh wait... this was just a really roundabout way of asking for more content for bored, capped players.

Good luck with that.

[Kindoki]

I basically disagree with this entire statement. Though I still respect sigtrent.

I think that is a pretty good suggestion!

Some quests should be more challenging than others, raids and story conclusions should be toughter... but I don't thinkt here should be any quests that essentaily say "Only the elite players need apply."

There should be quests that say only elite players need apply. The best thing that could have happened is if the Titan was still undefeated and Turbine devs had come out and said - "The Titan is not bugged. You are uninventive." Please note, I still think lasers were a dumb idea. That's beside the point. I don't expect a average electrician to be able to do the wiring at Bill Gates house, and I don't think every person who dons a virtual robe and grabs an imaginary sword should be able to beat the dragon just because they can move a mouse.

I'm fine with quests on elite being very hard and having better rewards. Challenge should be rewarded.

Where in life does it say challenge should be rewarded? For everything in life, challenge is it's own reward. Can anyone honestly look around the world today and say that hardwork and challenge is directly comparable to reward? Anywhere? To expect anything different is to be living in lala land. If I wanted my video game to be based off of lala land, I would be playing sonic the hedgehog and monkeyball. When you add a guaranteed gain in reward to an increase in challenge, then dumb down the challenge in order to give anyone an opportunity for success; then you remove the incentive to be creative for the majority of the population. "A goes into B, I get C. No, I will not try D - what happens if I don't get C?"... That experiment was successfully conducted years ago by a guy named Pavlov. I would prefer not to have the player population responses so easily manipulated.

You also create a stratification of the player base between those who have the time or natural ability to easily succeed at the higher levels and those who don't. By giving greater rewards to those select few, you excerbate the difference between the two bases. Those who are capable of defeating the encounter more often, or at a higher percentage of success, than others, already have a bonus by virtue of the extra chests they get. When you then make those chests more productive, that increases their ability to finish the quest quicker, or more successfully, the next time. You have just created a vicious cycle, and in turn lowered the overall percentage of players who can, or will, successfully group together.

Not to say normal should be a cake walk, it should offer some challenge but certainly anyone who can manage the quest on elite should find normal to be a kiddie park by comparison.

Hmmm...ok. I do agree with the last part of Sig's statement.

Well, that's my two cents. Before you all come and get me, I should say - I am the farthest from an elite player that you can get. I fully realize that I am supporting a concept that probably would eliminate my ability to be successful in some quests. I think it would just give me something to work towards.


edit:

i think they should add another diffulculty to all the quest get rid of the solo option and make it scale like this, novice, normal, hard and elite. id make the raids like this as well that way people could work out the kinks on novice level. i would not give favor for novice and scale the loot -5 to level.

Take out scaling and I like it.

double edit:

There is already a super easy "normal" setting. It's called taking level 7's into Water Works or Baudry's.

There is already a super elite setting. It's called taking level 5's into Xorian Cipher, or maybe Stromvauld's Mine on hard.

Oh wait... this was just a really roundabout way of asking for more content for bored, capped players.

Good luck with that.

excellent point. I withdraw from the argument.

[Tharris]

Thanks for a great thread.

I have zerged to the end to add my bits, so it may have been covered.

I would love to see some more options for us upon entering an instance.

These might include

FRIENDLY FIRE allowed
RES PENALTIES , i.e you always come back at 1 level down for the purpose of game play , but your XP does go up on completition.

Any others, but can't think right at the moment.

Choosing any of these options might grant extra favour points............

Apologies if these have been added, not got time to read thru whole thread at work.

[Amabel]

I agree almost entirely with the OP.

It seems to me that the simplest way to "scale" the game without re-writing every quest is to scale the equipment, and especially the consumables we all rely on so heavily. Otherwise you can scale all you like but it ultimately becomes a question of how much plat you can throw at something.

Super elite = scrolls, wands and potions do not work. Game scaled. (You could also scale the effectiveness of rest shrines to only restore half mana or something.)

Take out unlimited healing and see if people start to worry about tactics a bit more. And you don't need to overpower the mobs because you have to worry about carrying damage through a quest because you can't fully heal after every fight.

One of the best aspects of D&D is crawling around with low hit points being scared half to death about what's around the corner. Having to shift your rogue to the front because your fighter is bleeding so badly he'll die if a kobold gets lucky etc.

Newer games have adopted a perma-heal (potions, wands), rest anywhere (NWN2) approach that has killed that suspense and trepedation. Basically nowadays if you have 300 hit points you take 270 to 300 hit points into every fight. You rarely carry significant damage around. The mobs are inflated to cope with that so AC and tactical fighting have become less meaningful and high hitpoints and DPS have become king.

The best scaling is keeping player power under control. It's hard to do but it means that you don't have to scale the mobs up.

That, in turn, keeps the casual and new players who don't have access to the uber-gear and unlimited plat for consumables happier. It makes the game more challenging, rather than a question of who can time-sink to have the best equipment and enough plat to throw at the inflated mobs.

Just my two cents. Others may well disagree, but if you walked into a pnp campaign carrying a backpack with 100 cure serious wounds potions my bet is your DM would have that backpack broken or lost in under a minute. You shouldn't be thinking about conserving hit points for the fight, you should be thinking about conserving them for the adventure.

[Kindoki]

I agree almost entirely with the OP.

It seems to me that the simplest way to "scale" the game without re-writing every quest is to scale the equipment, and especially the consumables we all rely on so heavily. Otherwise you can scale all you like but it ultimately becomes a question of how much plat you can throw at something.

Super elite = scrolls, wands and potions do not work. Game scaled. (You could also scale the effectiveness of rest shrines to only restore half mana or something.)

Take out unlimited healing and see if people start to worry about tactics a bit more. And you don't need to overpower the mobs because you have to worry about carrying damage through a quest because you can't fully heal after every fight.

One of the best aspects of D&D is crawling around with low hit points being scared half to death about what's around the corner. Having to shift your rogue to the front because your fighter is bleeding so badly he'll die if a kobold gets lucky etc.

Newer games have adopted a perma-heal (potions, wands), rest anywhere (NWN2) approach that has killed that suspense and trepedation. Basically nowadays if you have 300 hit points you take 270 to 300 hit points into every fight. You rarely carry significant damage around. The mobs are inflated to cope with that so AC and tactical fighting have become less meaningful and high hitpoints and DPS have become king.

The best scaling is keeping player power under control. It's hard to do but it means that you don't have to scale the mobs up.

That, in turn, keeps the casual and new players who don't have access to the uber-gear and unlimited plat for consumables happier. It makes the game more challenging, rather than a question of who can time-sink to have the best equipment and enough plat to throw at the inflated mobs.

Just my two cents. Others may well disagree, but if you walked into a pnp campaign carrying a backpack with 100 cure serious wounds potions my bet is your DM would have that backpack broken or lost in under a minute. You shouldn't be thinking about conserving hit points for the fight, you should be thinking about conserving them for the adventure.

well said.

[dragonofsteel2]

Take out unlimited healing and see if people start to worry about tactics a bit more. And you don't need to overpower the mobs because you have to worry about carrying damage through a quest because you can't fully heal after every fight.

Tactics or use and to say there is none is big misunderstanding. Just because I know the quest and makes it faster and easier, might look like zerging, but in reality you using the tactics you learn to complete the quest fast. Static quest become easy just the way it is. I have no problem with the difficulty in the game accept for the new raid which nothing base role-playing/action game. If want higher levels fine put in a insane level with nothing extra and nothing to gain but personal pride, since worry about the difficulty so much. Wait this will became, why do get the same reward for doing more that its not fair we should get more for doing more. Sorry if the game becomes have to spend all day and night to keep up with the Jones, then I am out sorry. I pay to play all the material and skilled enough to do so.

[Amabel]

Tactics or use and to say there is none is big misunderstanding. Just because I know the quest and makes it faster and easier, might look like zerging, but in reality you using the tactics you learn to complete the quest fast. Static quest become easy just the way it is. I have no problem with the difficulty in the game accept for the new raid which nothing base role-playing/action game. If want higher levels fine put in a insane level with nothing extra and nothing to gain but personal pride, since worry about the difficulty so much. Wait this will became, why do get the same reward for doing more that its not fair we should get more for doing more. Sorry if the game becomes have to spend all day and night to keep up with the Jones, then I am out sorry. I pay to play all the material and skilled enough to do so.

I'm not opposed to zerging - I do it often. Of course once you know a quest backwards it gets easier (and I expect most people who bother with this forum know most of the quests). But I think that's more familirity than serious tactical thinking. Hindsight and foreknowledge are the greatest of the super-heroes!

But tell me you wouldn't need to fight smarter if you didn't have access to consumables and I'll tell you you're a liar . We all chug a potion of healing or resistance of some other buff every now and then, or whip a wand out.

You may be happy with the difficulty, but the OP's point is that some people would like more of a challenge (while some want it easier and some don't care). The trick is to be able to give those who want it a challenge without scaling the mobs to make them harder (thus inflating the resource requirements for those who want to continue to make life easier by having better gear) and my suggestion is a proposal to "scale" the game without inflating the monsters. If you scale back player power and restrict use of resources, then in the same situation you have to play better to win. Throwing more plat at an adventure doesn't help and therefore there isn't an inflationary affect on resources in the game generally, which annoys people who are happy the way it is and don't want to have to grind for resources to compete in more challenging scenarios.

I play a non-twink campaign with friends, and I can tell you without a doubt that we pay much more attention to what we're doing than with our normal characters, because the consequences of not paying attention and getting nailed by a trap for 40 points of damage are that you run on with less hit points or use precious mana to heal. It makes a big difference to the way you play and, like it or not, it's far more challenging. I'm suggesting that instead of inflating mobs, you untwink players a bit if they want a more challenging level.

[Pellegro]

The trick is to be able to give those who want it a challenge without scaling the mobs to make them harder (thus inflating the resource requirements for those who want to continue to make life easier by having better gear) and my suggestion is a proposal to "scale" the game without inflating the monsters. If you scale back player power and restrict use of resources, then in the same situation you have to play better to win. Throwing more plat at an adventure doesn't help and therefore there isn't an inflationary affect on resources in the game generally, which annoys people who are happy the way it is and don't want to have to grind for resources to compete in more challenging scenarios.

I haven't thought too much about this, and I'm kinda drunk atm anyway, but this strikes me as the best solution I've heard yet.

It would require little to no dev time, it would add intensity, it would create more challenge.

I like it.

I'd still like to see them find a way, however, to scale mobs on *all* quests in game, so that you can always run the past quests from a higher lvl toon and get a challenge. That would explode content (since at level 14 you'd have ... wawht do we have now, 100 quests in game? ... to choose from).

Anyway, great idea of scaling players rather than mobs, in a way that would be pretty easy from dev side (I'd think) adn that would create more intensity.