any pally love for new mod?

[krud]

paladins are going to become the most finger twitchy class out there, especially if you also took combat expertise.

"coming to a fight...ok...let's see... cast divine might, divine favor, zeal... oh yeah, and don't forget to reactivate combat expertise. Oh! and don't forget about those smites either" ...

" aww crud! i hit CE first, darnit!" ...

"oh well, i'm already used to charging into combat with gimped stats anyway. It'll be just like old times"

[Angelus_dead]

"coming to a fight...ok...let's see... cast divine might, divine favor, zeal... oh yeah, and don't forget to reactivate combat expertise. Oh! and don't forget about those smites either" ...

Paladins already can't really benefit from CE, for exactly the reason that they must cast DF every 60 seconds of combat. (Or 120 seconds with extend, which most seem not to have)

[Borror0]

I'm sorry, but Tempest was a huge mistake. I'm glad to see they learned from it. Such powerful class defining abilities should not be available to splash around. Heck people were already planning tempest paladins around this spell.

I'm glad it's going to be at least level 14.

At 3 seconds per caster level, it would have been barely built around.
(It would have been 24 second per cast, at level 8 paladin which is the minimum level required to cast Zeal.)

If Tempest was a "huge mistake", it wasn't because it was a splashable mechanic. I have yet to hear complaints of the overpowered [whatever]/6 ranger.

[Inspire]

Paladins already can't really benefit from CE, for exactly the reason that they must cast DF every 60 seconds of combat. (Or 120 seconds with extend, which most seem not to have)

Perhaps A Cooldown Change Is In Order? 30Seconds Without Casting Is A Bit Much In The "Thick Of Battle" IMO.

[GhostNull]

I think this balances paladins rather nicely, so that having a somewhat higher charisma vs say strength isn't gimping yourself. In particular, drow palis should be happy, while dwarven paladins will get a little benefit, they have been reaping the benefits of their high strength for quite a while.

Well, if Turbine's version of Divine Might actually "used" a Paladin's CHA score for damage, that would be one thing. But, current implementation is only using CHA for prerequisites.

I posted this the other day...

Here's a different suggestion:

Current implemention isn't even a shadow of the PnP version, my suggestion is to change the enhancement to actually use the Paladin's CHA modifier for damage instead of being just a prerequisite.

Divine Might I
Prerequisites: Paladin 5, Power Attack
Duration: Base 24 seconds + 6 seconds per Paladin/Cleric Level
Allows up to a maximum of +4 Sacred bonus to damage where bonus = CHA+ modifier.

Divine Might II
Prerequisites: Paladin 10, Power Attack
Duration: Base 24 seconds + 6 seconds per Paladin/Cleric Level
Allows up to a maximum of +6 Sacred bonus to damage where bonus = CHA+ modifier.

Divine Might III
Prerequisites: Paladin 15, Power Attack
Duration: Base 24 seconds + 6 seconds per Paladin/Cleric Level
Allows up to a maximum of +8 Sacred bonus to damage where bonus = CHA+ modifier.

Divine Might IV
Prerequisites: Paladin 20, Power Attack
Duration: Base 24 seconds + 6 seconds per Paladin/Cleric Level
Allows up to a maximum of +10 Sacred bonus to damage where bonus = CHA+ modifier.

This would put Divine Might far more in-line with the PnP feat version. To add a little balance and more PnP similarity, Power Attack is listed as prerequisite feat.

Even the highest tier enhancment would be usable by just about every Paladin instead of only a small handful with the current version.

[Angelus_dead]

Perhaps A Cooldown Change Is In Order? 30Seconds Without Casting Is A Bit Much In The "Thick Of Battle" IMO.

Well, Combat Expertise should be changed in general so that it neither prevents spellcasting, nor is deactivated by it. Instead, casting a spell should TEMPORARILY deactivate the AC benefit from CE, but that should only be for about 5 seconds.

[llevenbaxx]

I'm sorry, but Tempest was a huge mistake. I'm glad to see they learned from it. Such powerful class defining abilities should not be available to splash around. Heck people were already planning tempest paladins around this spell.

I'm glad it's going to be at least level 14.

I think this balances paladins rather nicely, so that having a somewhat higher charisma vs say strength isn't gimping yourself. In particular, drow palis should be happy, while dwarven paladins will get a little benefit, they have been reaping the benefits of their high strength for quite a while.

Between Zeal and Divine Might, I think paladins are getting a HUGE boost. The PrCs are icing on a very very yummy cake. Thanks devs.

6 levels is hardly a splash far as Tempest goes but I do agree Zeal is better at higher levels, especially since its nothing like the spell out of the compendium, attack speed is the end all be all of melee.(EDIT FIX Greatswords!)

Far as Divine might goes, a closer to the book implimentation would have been better. Let the charisma bonus be the damage/duration, not the deciding factor if you can even get it. Str based pally should do more damage, plain and simple, THAT is the balance. The give in defense, saves and some special abilities to do more damage... this just seems to be padding peoples build choices... I say this as a more balanced pally who can still only get tier 2.

Divine Might is purely a min/max pallys ability as implimented. Charisma should not give the best of both worlds imho. Not saying that D.M. will be all that, though with extend it should be decent, I just dont like the tone. Not to mention this was sorta a melee/combat focused feat to begin with, would make more sense with a str prereq.

Really like Ghost's idea better...

[Eladrin]

Perhaps A Cooldown Change Is In Order? 30Seconds Without Casting Is A Bit Much In The "Thick Of Battle" IMO.

The spell cooldown triggered by Combat Expertise has been dropped to 6 seconds in the upcoming module.

(Specifically, "Entering combat stances (Combat Expertise, Defensive Fighting, Power Attack, Precision, or Resilience) is now faster. The cooldowns on spells and combat stance changes has been dropped to 6 seconds. The cooldown on the Stealth ability is no longer triggered by or linked to combat stance changes.")

[Cashiry]

The spell cooldown triggered by Combat Expertise has been dropped to 6 seconds in the upcoming module.

(Specifically, "Entering combat stances (Combat Expertise, Defensive Fighting, Power Attack, Precision, or Resilience) is now faster. The cooldowns on spells and combat stance changes has been dropped to 6 seconds. The cooldown on the Stealth ability is no longer triggered by or linked to combat stance changes.")

Awesome

[rimble]

The spell cooldown triggered by Combat Expertise has been dropped to 6 seconds in the upcoming module.

Thanks for doing something, but FWIW, that still kinda sucks for many characters, I think in particular Paladins who have the unfortunate burden of frequently taking Combat Expertise AND having short duration spells (Divine Favor and Zeal).

Is there any interest/possibility of just having Combat Expertise not work for maybe 10 seconds or so after you cast a spell, but still leaving it toggled on?

Is that 'toggle off' just a side-effect of how things were implemented, or a purposeful annoyance to discourage the purely spell-casting classes from using it? If the latter, maybe a new Enhancement is in order for Paladins, Rangers, and maybe Bards that leaves it toggled on but suppresses its bonus for a few seconds after casting a spell.

I guess you could always break away from core and give Divine Favor a normal scaling duration (x seconds + 6 seconds per level) instead of the static 1 minute. Which, conveniently, also rewards you for taking more Paladin levels (beyond 9 when its ToHit/Damage stops scaling), which seems to be something you are trying to encourage. Extending Divine Favor and Zeal would make the toggling a little more bearable, still not ideal though.

[Eladrin]

I guess you could always break away from core and give Divine Favor a normal scaling duration (x seconds + 6 seconds per level) instead of the static 1 minute. Which, conveniently, also rewards you for taking more Paladin levels (beyond 9 when its ToHit/Damage stops scaling), which seems to be something you are trying to encourage.

We've been considering changing many of the "1 minute" durations to the scaling 24 + 6/level durations that we've been fond of with recent spells, though shied away thus far because we don't want to decrease the durations for lower level characters. On the other hand, by sixth level you've already broken even...

[Laith]

We've been considering changing many of the "1 minute" durations to the scaling 24 + 6/level durations that we've been fond of with recent spells, though shied away thus far because we don't want to decrease the durations for lower level characters. On the other hand, by sixth level you've already broken even...

if you do this, i'll have to come up with a different reason not to play a pally

edit: so many short duration spells make the class tedious. at the very least, those spells should last an entire fight (which would eliminate most of the CE problem).

[rimble]

We've been considering changing many of the "1 minute" durations to the scaling 24 + 6/level durations that we've been fond of with recent spells, though shied away thus far because we don't want to decrease the durations for lower level characters. On the other hand, by sixth level you've already broken even...

Paladins would start casting it at 48 seconds and catch up in two levels, I'm sure they wouldn't mind.

Clerics would suffer a bit, but they'd catch up too.

I guess it'd be a pretty big hit to any sort of splash Cleric that casts Divine Favor (a splash Paladin would need 4 levels to cast it so be at 48 seconds which isn't too bad), I guess it depends how much you care about those cases.

I don't know all the 1-minute duration spells, but I feel like this would be overwhelmingly welcomed for Divine Favor, though a few unfortunate splash builds may be sad.

[llevenbaxx]

We've been considering changing many of the "1 minute" durations to the scaling 24 + 6/level durations that we've been fond of with recent spells, though shied away thus far because we don't want to decrease the durations for lower level characters. On the other hand, by sixth level you've already broken even...

Would definitely be the way to go, not many low level combats ever go longer anyway and like you said youre already caught up long before it would really matter.

[Angelus_dead]

We've been considering changing many of the "1 minute" durations to the scaling 24 + 6/level durations that we've been fond of with recent spells, though shied away thus far because we don't want to decrease the durations for lower level characters.

There's this system that goes like "60 seconds, +6 seconds per caster level above 6".

You can set the minimum caster level before durations increase to whatever it takes so that lowbie casters don't feel the spell ends instantly, while still giving high-level casters a concrete benefit to taking more levels in a pure class (instead of changing to fighter or ranger)

[Josh]

Well, Combat Expertise should be changed in general so that it neither prevents spellcasting, nor is deactivated by it. Instead, casting a spell should TEMPORARILY deactivate the AC benefit from CE, but that should only be for about 5 seconds.

This is a good idea actually. It's a royal PITA having to re-click that stupid little icon every time you cast a spell.

[Borror0]

Well, Combat Expertise should be changed in general so that it neither prevents spellcasting, nor is deactivated by it. Instead, casting a spell should TEMPORARILY deactivate the AC benefit from CE, but that should only be for about 5 seconds.

Agreed. Not the first time it's been suggested and if it's possible, then it's something that should be done.

It's annoying busywork.

[Dexxaan]

Agreed. Not the first time it's been suggested and if it's possible, then it's something that should be done.

It's annoying busywork.

/Agreed.

Paladins are gonna end up in the hands of the likes of my 12 Yr old son with his Console button skills.

[tihocan]

We've been considering changing many of the "1 minute" durations to the scaling 24 + 6/level durations that we've been fond of with recent spells, though shied away thus far because we don't want to decrease the durations for lower level characters. On the other hand, by sixth level you've already broken even...

Please just do something like max(1 min, 24 + 6/level). Otherwise you're not only hurting lower level chars, you're also nerfing some multiclass builds who enjoy their 1 min buff...

[Solmage]

We've been considering changing many of the "1 minute" durations to the scaling 24 + 6/level durations that we've been fond of with recent spells, though shied away thus far because we don't want to decrease the durations for lower level characters. On the other hand, by sixth level you've already broken even...

*clap!!* Yes, please please please!

Well, Combat Expertise should be changed in general so that it neither prevents spellcasting, nor is deactivated by it. Instead, casting a spell should TEMPORARILY deactivate the AC benefit from CE, but that should only be for about 5 seconds.

You guys mentioned reworking CE anyway, and if you have to have it interfere with spell casting in any way, then this would be a very good option I think.