A Thread Which is Not about how Shadows Respond to Fire Spells

[Seanus]

Because in truth, there are spells in D&D that should allow players to do just that.

So, phasing wouldn't be so unfair if we had Etherealness or Ethereal Jaunt... I get that. But, in my opinion, that would cause far more problems than solutions, because then it's an excuse to give enemy casters that spell to further annoy us...

[Deaths_ward]

Because in truth, there are spells in D&D that should allow players to do just that.

Don't forget that nifty 7th level spell "Body of War" when you say things like this.

[Seanus]

Body of War? Can't say I ever saw that spell. Which book is it from?

[arikka_hador]

When Ethereal Creatures phase, they actually jump back to the Ethereal Plane, so they're not on the same plane as the Magic Missile, and can't be hit by it.

When Incorporeal Creatures phase, that, according to the devs, is how they represent going into the wall or floor, and Magic Missile cannot damage an inanimate object, nor can it go through a solid object to hit it's target.

That's not exactly what I meant. I understand that part entirely, and that seems fair to me. I think my point was actually closer to how in PnP if your turn is before the enemy's, even if it decided to phase or meld into a wall, the magic missile would still hit, right? I guess in the real-time game of DDO, you would simply have to literally be faster than the enemy. I would just like to see a greater window of opportunity, if nothing else. XD

[liamfrancais]

If halt undead actually worked it might be helpful with this situation but almost no undead are actually effected by it even hightened on low level quests they save most of the time, I started a post in sorc thread about this an one of the members tested it and the results were shall I say disappointing.

[geoffhanna]

if they stayed "phased in" a little longer.

Give me at least human reaction time (3 seconds? 5?) so there is at least a chance I can target them with a weapon or spell before they untarget themselves.

Mashing the attack button over and over as fast as I can wears out my attack finger

I don't mind needing Ghost Touch.

[Missing_Minds]

Phasing, the idea I like. I gives the players more things to worry about in how to kill something.

But when a fight takes longer than a WoF lasts at caster level 14 (non extended) and the phasing creature is still not dead, something is wrong with phasing. I use WoF in this example only as a time referance as I believe most all here understand about how long that is.

Should a caster have the same chance to kill a phasing creature with their spells (non lingering ones) that a melee does with weapons? My Opinion, yes, they should. Do they? NOT EVEN CLOSE.

The only types of phase creatures that I bother to throw direct spells at are ghosts/spectors because they do stick around. (Honestly I want to say they got their phasing correct.) I only toss spells at wraiths when I see their hands start to go all glowy with the purple circles because then I know they aren't just going to phase away wasting spells.

In PnP should a creature phase up through the room and then back down, (if they have spring attack) would be up and down before my caster/melee could do anything so there would not be any time wasted, no spell wasted, etc. The players could then declare readied actions to take care of this issue. We have no such luxury here at all.

What we have in this game is 1/2 a second of a creature where we can hit them ( possibly hit them if they are also incoporeal), and then they are gone for another 4-5 seconds where we can't do a thing and normally they will appear behind us to attack.
Following this, if we assume .5 + 4.5 = 5 seconds to do one attack on a creature, we do 10 pts of damage each attack, and the creature has 100 hp, It will take near 1 minute per creature to kill at this rate. At current DDO mechanics it takes about 30 seconds per phase creature as is WITH WoF up on really bad phasers.

If the phase mechanic was changed such to where phasing required that when a creature phased in that it could NOT phase out again for 5 seconds, this would solve a lot of issues. Melee's could get a full attack (almost) and casters COULD finally hit with spells like fireball, scorching ray, etc. that are NOT area duration effects.

[Dionysus]

I believe if they would fix AoE spells then fixing mob resistances wouldn't be necessary. But until AI prevents critters from running into a firewall and they make it so AoE spells affect everyone then I say make more mobs resistant to them. I firmly believe AoE has a purpose but to run a whole quest based on dropping firewalls is a bit rediculous. Making them not stack would be nice too.

[Cowdenicus]

mass cures FTW

[oronisi]

Well, I hope this one is allowed to stay independent, though the opening post does have a few references to ...that spell

Anyway - agree, phasing out would be better gone.
Failing that,
Decreasing the chance to phase might help, will have to see how it plays out. Putting a timer on phasing, so a creature can't phase out for a certain amount of time after phasing in would probably help more, since the problem isn't so much about them spending too much time phased out as too little time phased in (not enough time to target/face/cast/swing/shoot).

I like the timer idea. Phasing creatures should be scary. They phase out and you don't know where or when they are going to come back. Instead they do it like 50 times a fight, and you know almost exactly where they will phase back in.

Make phasing happen less, make the enemies move around while phased out. Make it scary and less annoying.

[Yaga_Nub]

I believe if they would fix AoE spells then fixing mob resistances wouldn't be necessary. But until AI prevents critters from running into a firewall and they make it so AoE spells affect everyone then I say make more mobs resistant to them. I firmly believe AoE has a purpose but to run a whole quest based on dropping firewalls is a bit rediculous. Making them not stack would be nice too.

I agree with you about fixing the AI.

If I'm in a firewall then I turn 180 degrees and move 5'. Simple to say but maybe not so easy to program.

I totally disagree about AoE affecting everyone unless you are talking about a complete rebalancing of the game from top to bottom and that just ain't going to happen nor is it worth the time of the devs to do so. Maybe in DDO v2 but don't waste the time developing it for our current DDO.

[barabel]

I'm all for getting rid of the phasing altogether, but my gut tells me the devs probably don't want to see that happen so I offer this up as an alternative a bit closer to the PnP rules.

What if the devs called the 'phasing' going completely ethereal (which I know they can't do from PnP, but lets just assume a DDO house rule here). If they were to be treated as completely ethereal in this phased out state then we should have some recourses to affect them.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbi...m#etherealness

If they operated in this manner, I would propose it should take a 'free action to unphase' but to phase costs 6 second delay and they need to remain stationary.

Also, any character who in under the effects of a See Invisibility or True Seeing spell should be able to keep them targeted. In order to affect them when they are phased out, Casters would have to resort to Force spells (or the devs could add the Transdimensional Spell feat) and people with force weapons (rare I know), would be able to hit them when "phased".

This opens the playing field up a little bit. The undead would still have a defense against the players, but players would have options to get around this.

[MysticTheurge]

So, phasing wouldn't be so unfair if we had Etherealness or Ethereal Jaunt... I get that. But, in my opinion, that would cause far more problems than solutions, because then it's an excuse to give enemy casters that spell to further annoy us...

I'm honestly not suggesting that spells that allowed characters to become incorporeal should be added to the game. They'd definitely cause huge problems. I'm just pointing out that, in D&D, PCs can pull all these same tricks, and more, but that in D&D we'd never dream of having access to that magic because of the ways it would "break quests."

I believe if they would fix AoE spells then fixing mob resistances wouldn't be necessary. But until AI prevents critters from running into a firewall and they make it so AoE spells affect everyone then I say make more mobs resistant to them. I firmly believe AoE has a purpose but to run a whole quest based on dropping firewalls is a bit rediculous. Making them not stack would be nice too.

This thread is not about AoE spells or AI. I hate to play the on-topic-nazi but it already got merged once for being too much about Wall of Fire and Shadows. Please try to refrain from discussing those things in depth in this thread.

Thanks.

If they operated in this manner, I would propose it should take a 'free action to unphase' but to phase costs 6 second delay and they need to remain stationary.

This might actually be interesting. Phase Spiders can only phase as a move action. And anything incorporeal that doesn't have spring attack would have to spend it's move action to emerge from the floor/ground/wall. Forcing them to actually stand still for a few seconds after they phase in would be a nice addition. Assuming they couldn't phase out for the same time, it would also give you some more accurate visual clues for the period of time when you'd actually stand a decent chance of getting a spell off. (Cast while they're stationary, not once they start to move.)

Also, any character who in under the effects of a See Invisibility or True Seeing spell should be able to keep them targeted.

I'm of the opinion that they should stay targeted all the time regardless. In theory, just because something phases into the floor doesn't mean I don't know it's going to come back. Why should it untarget itself? Given the facing rules, you still would have to turn to face it once it reappears, but at least you don't have to do the crazy tab/click dance to try to get it selected.

If we did the following things I think I'd be satisfied:

1) Further reduce the rate of phasing (as Eladrin suggests he's doing) and the amount of time spent phased out.
2) Implement more spells that help deal these creatures (Corpse Candle, Ghost Trap, Incorporeal Nova).
3) Incorporate the 50% miss chance for spells that don't have the Force descriptor. Add methods to help address this ("Ghost touch" type metamagic, enhancements, or weapon modifiers).
4) Force most incorporeal creatures (those who don't have spring attack) to remain stationary for several seconds after they phase in.
5) Remove the portion of phasing that un-targets the creature.
6) Do not charge spell points for spells which are cast at invalid targets. (Change spells to "pay on completion," like you did with Lay on Hands, except in concentration-failure situations).

[Yaga_Nub]

6) Do not charge spell points for spells which are cast at invalid targets. (Change spells to "pay on completion," like you did with Lay on Hands, except in concentration-failure situations).

I would be in favor of this as the only fix for now because it should be easy and quick to do.

Yes I know that the timer on phasing should be quick to do as well but since the sp thing would have a greater effect game-wide I'd like to see it done first.

[barabel]

It shouldn't 'break' anything to allow players to keep the creature targeted when phased out.

Kinda like being able to target scorpions who are inactive and still underground, you can't affect them but you know exactly where they are.

[llevenbaxx]

What also might be nice is the Transdimensional Spell feat implimented. Would allow just about any spell to affect these creatures no matter what plain they currently inhabit. Dont know what the mechanics of "phasing" are in this game or if this would be a viable solution but it sounds like it could work.

[Aspenor]

They need to phase slower, we shouldn't lose targetting, and we shouldn't lose SP for an invalid target. Additionally, we need more AoE DoT damage options than Wall of Fire and Blade Barrier. (sorry about mentioning THAT spell, but it's just part of my feedback)

[MysticTheurge]

What also might be nice is the Transdimensional Spell feat implimented. Would allow just about any spell to affect these creatures no matter what plain they currently inhabit. Dont know what the mechanics of "phasing" are in this game or if this would be a viable solution but it sounds like it could work.

Transdimensional spells hit ghosts who haven't manifested (i.e. they're Ethereal) but it wouldn't do anything to help cast at "phased" incorporeal creatures given that the logic there is that they're in the ground.

[llevenbaxx]

Transdimensional spells hit ghosts who haven't manifested (i.e. they're Ethereal) but it wouldn't do anything to help cast at "phased" incorporeal creatures given that the logic there is that they're in the ground.

Ask yourself where are these creatures exactly when "phased"? I thought the feat was exactly for the purpose of targetting incorporeal creatures. Will have to check my Complete Arcane when I get home.

[MysticTheurge]

Ask yourself where are these creatures exactly when "phased"? I thought the feat was exactly for the purpose of targetting incorporeal creatures. Will have to check my Complete Arcane when I get home.

They are inside a solid object.

Transdimensional spell allows you to target creatures on another (usually Ethereal) plane. That's not the case here.

Incorporeal creatures "phase out" by going into solid objects (generally the floor) and as such there's no way to target them (since you lack line of effect) even with Transdimensional spell.

For more details see the earlier "Ethereal != Incorporeal" discussion.

Edit -- Transidmensional spell should, in theory, let you hit Phase Spiders who are phased out.