Official Shadow/Wall of Fire Feedback thread. - PLEASE KEEP ALL DISCUSSION HERE.

[ccheath776]

I have one character that will just have to NEVER go in there. He is a sorcerer and his main game is the flame. Making them just flat immune to fire basically makes him useless *in that quest*. Unless he wants to magic missile them to death.... lol.... or are they immune to that as well?

Immune.
This is where the devs are wrong. This is why. Why should I feel I can't take my caster into temple of VOL anymore?
I should be able to use my caster in any quest. Essentially now, its basically. Sorry casters are invalid in Temple of Vol have a nice day.

[Ithrani]

So if this was mentioned earlier sorry to repeat. True seeing should make any ethereal and invisible targets visible making it possible to hit them with out a concealment miss chance from not being seen. Of course ethereal will still get the 50% miss chance unless you use ghost touch, so with both true seeing and ghost touch you should never miss a "phasing" target. The idea that they float down into the ground would be fine if they actually did that, this way while going down or "phasing" I could hit them a few more times and when they came back up the same. Because I can see them and hit them with out a miss chance %

MT you mentioned Ogre Magi, I think they are the most broke of all. They do not have the ability to turn ethereal at all, so unless they are casting Ethereal Jaunt which would mean every ogre mage in the game is at least a 13th level caster they should not phase. They turn invisible but See Invisibility and True Seeing do nothing to fix that and Gaseous Form is visible and only gives a DR 10/magic now. I know you know all that but how are they working any better then incorporeals. I have always had this complaint about invisible and sneaking mobs and characters in this game. The ability to use stealth is vastly in the mobs favor. Nice job turbine...

[Katrina]

Well written MT.

[Jefechao]

Tell me why i would swing a second time if it was -5 to attack from the first?

The ONLY time i would do that is some easy quest where i'm hitting everytime at -15 to attack.

for the same reason you would in pen and paper. For the same reason you swing while moving. for the same reason you turn on power attack or combate expertise. The point is getting another roll to hit. the minus just shows the effort. To say you wouldnt swing is a lunacy. Your taking a chance on trying to hit each and every time you swing. waiting until you swing with only your highest bonus is ineffective and wastes time. You can still miss with your highest bonus to hit. and you can still hit with your lowest. so why not swing through just like we do now, and take the hits we get like we do now. Using this method we could lower the ubsurd AC's of creatures and make them more relaistic. Your timer to get your highest BAB back would be the same as running a full set of swings anyway. so why not take them? Honestly Cheg why? does your finger get tired of clicking?

[Gabrion]

When I have issues with the game, I don't post all of them on the forums, as it can easily get lost. There are direct method of communication with Turbine and the DDO staff that while I know I won't get a direct response, I feel that the information is getting to the person who it should get to. Rather then hoping they stumble across it on the forums.

Well since the direct methods of communication don't accomplish anything, I don't see a problem with using them (with the hope that on some off chance they will help) and also posting issues on the forums.

Problems, or just really annoying?

People play games for enjoyment. Really annoying = a problem.

Yes, there are times something like these mobs cause a quest to not be able to complete. That stinks. It also stinks when InDesign, Photoshop or Illustrator crashes on me during work. Thankfully while Adobe can't seem to 100% prevent this, they have taken steps to insure minimal lost work. In fact, InDesign is awesome and file recovery.

Well these are bad analogies, but since you picked them I'll go along with you. What kind of data recovery method exists in DDO? People ran quest like Madstone Crater and just because multiple people talked to the end guy to complete, the quest bugged out giving no XP. If a recovery system existed, DMs would look into the matter and grant the appropriate XP. I've seen this many times from DMs though - they are absolutely not allowed to grant XP to players, no matter what the reason.

Furthermore, I personally have lost millions of gold through the AH/mail system. I know many others who have as well. The response from DMs is always the same - they can't grant players any kind of compensation for their bugged mail system. Data recovery? I wish.

After all, I make mistakes. I still get paid when I make mistakes, and someone is paying for my mistakes somewhere, since I make text books (For the record, I do the production, not the writing, and I strive to be as mistake free as possible, and I would say I generally reach the 95%).

And I'm willing to bet if you made blatant mistakes in your work that you repeated over and over without attempting to fix, you would lose your job.

I can tell the difference between an honest mistake, rushed work and work that just wasn't done right because of not caring if it's right or wrong.

Examples like incorporeal phasing aren't honest mistakes or rushed work. They are poor design over a long period of time and refusal to fix mistakes. Much worse than the two alternatives you pose.

(The "fixes" in this last update are examples of rushed work though)

I can't get mad at people for honest mistakes.

Nor can I.

I don't think the game issues with DDO are sloppy work done wrong without care, and I don't think they rush that much. They certainly get dinged for taking to long.

They get dinged for taking too long because they take so long and still turn out rubbish when it's done. Then they turn around and rush fixes that create even more of an uproar.

So while I won't ever claim to know how to DO the coding and all that, I can feel somewhat sure about how long one thing takes compared to another. Especially if they set their mobs up with the ability to turn on and off such things as immunities or abilities.

But adding geometry to a landscape isn't just a case of cut and paste a door in along with some coding.

So you admit, when faced with a "problem" the devs just take the easy and not very creative approach of checking boxes?

A good DM makes things a challenge the players can do, and let randomness do it's part. A good DM should actually want the players to win, because if they fail, what next?

We're finding out since Monday's patch...

While funny, (and it's kumbaya), I'm not so huggy feeling as you might think. But even if I was, so what? Is it really so wrong to be more inclined to niceness and treating people better? Perhaps you might do with some more kumaya in your life and a little less **** and vingear.

I wondered about the spelling...

And nothing is wrong with that attitude, I was just pointing out that not everyone has it. You frequently say things here about the correct approach to use when trying to motivate the devs - I was just pointing out that the proper way to approach you isn't necessarily the proper way to approach them.

Really so if I told you to "Shut up you moron, you don't know **** about what it takes to make a MMO successful, because you lack even the basic understanding of what REALLY makes people play a game" you would be one of those people motivated by my harsh words and confrontation?

Or would you more likly reply back "F off you twit. If there is anyone here that doesn't know a thing is you, you dirty hippy?" Cause I really can't see you, or anyone responding positivly to harsh words and such.

I'm not advocating being outright rude to people. I'm saying that using negative reinforcement works in some cases better than positive reinforcement.

Explaining to game designers who rely on subscribers to pay their wages that they are ****ing us off and ruining our game experience and that we would prefer that they do X instead should be motivating.

Maybe you are right though....turbine doesn't listen when we put things in subscriptions terms, they don't listen when we put things in lack of fun terms, and they certainly don't listen when we offer valid alternatives. Maybe if we all sent then holiday care packages they would lay down the player/forum-goer/customer whacker for a few minutes.

[ccheath776]

Congrats on the baby. Your life as you know it is over! (for the better of course)

Cheers to the DDO comments as well. If you aren't having fun with certain quests...just don't do them. I wonder why that is so hard for some people.

Yep, your priorities are definitely going to change. Get ready for those quick (and sometimes) extended afks for the baby. As a stay at home dad for the past year, I can also attest to the fact that you can still find time to play (after everyone is asleep ).

Thank you for that. To me sleep is overrated anyway so I will just be suffering the same insomnia I always do.

I think if anything it just made me realize there is no point in getting frustrated and upset over a quest or a change in the game. They want to make the quest that way, fine. I just dont have to play it. Then I realized I really should be devoting more time to other things instead of worrying so much about flagging for a RAID I wil probably never run anyway. So I just turned my back on the whole thing, reprioritized and moved on.

I felt though that Turbine should know my opinion, I doubt everyone will share it, but its the way I feel. If I didnt say anything how would they know how their customers reacted unless they just didnt care and I know that Turbine does. Turbine as a company is a very good place to work for, but I do not agree with this particular decision. Doesn't mean I am throwing the game out the window, quite the contrary.

Thank you to DANA, when they said "If you dont like it, go out and build your own game.." Well thats exactly what I am doing. So it makes little sense for me to whine and moan over a particular quest. They changed it, so be it. I will learn from that and know that in my game stuff like that will not happen.

[kruggar]

Lets think a little.

First of all i dont remeber that wraiths can disapear and reapear at will, they are incorporeal creatures, thats why ghost touch weapons are there. Sure they can pass wall and back and thats what is suposed to happend in DDO when they vanish.

Theres no spell i think that prevent that but i have a sugestion, implement Dimensional Anchor, and assume that this spell should block that kind of stuff.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalAnchor.htm

Kruggar

[tihocan]

I've cut the rate at which shadows and wraiths "phase out" on hit down to a third of what it currently is (which is half of what it was before). I'll look into the possibility of getting a spell, paladin aura effect, or weapon effect that forces them to stay put.

Thanks!

[Epitome]

**** MT, a dev response, awesome job.

You should now confront the devs and see if they can switch incorporeal mobs from having inflated bonus to-hit to mimic the effects of bypassing armor. I'm about 99% positive that they aren't programmed correctly in this capacity (which would it be that hard using various if-then statements for certain armor types).

Haven't played much of the new stuff, instead I'm leveling up my new cleric and my first caster. In regards to Mod 5 I'm having little fun playing my tank with 55-62 AC, sweet saves, and tactical-knowledgeable game play. I love how my guild groups are primarily casters and clerics and I keep hearing from them "man, you need to level your cleric or new caster for these quests so you can lay down the blade barriers and the (now not quite as useful) WoF's).

Rambling done, I just hate incorporeal phasing and their fatty bonus to-hit scores.

[Borrigain]

Doh! Thought you were going to talk about getting rid of elves.

No Ghoste, no! Bad warforgie.

/smacks wf on nose with newpaper

Not that kind of "final" solution (but nice to see you "got" the sublim message)
But more like the put an end to overinflated mobs and blanket immunities.

Oh, and it probably wouldn't take too much coding effort to identify party members from mobs and only give "base" damage to friendlies. After all, some kind of coding identifies us so we are "immune" to our own stuff.

There's got to be some way we can come up with an idea that's practical and feasible to stop these "mad at the party for being clever" DM fixes.

Keep the ideas flowing,
Borr.

[Kisaragi]

So here's what happened. I was helping a guildie last night get favor for the quest on elite. I was level 14 (a pure paladin) and I figure, ok, it's level 6, level 8 on elite, should be no sweat.

The horror....

I was missing mephits/elementals about 60% of the time. Something isn't right about these numbers. That was with a BAB of 24, Virtue, and in some cases Potions of Rage.

I had banishers, and a bloodstone, and I was hardly banishing CR9s. Mainly because I couldn't hit em. I was confused. If they're that tough, where a level 14 cannot take them down quickly, that's not CR9. I've taken down stone giants faster then those.

Then there were 2 other elements involved that honestly, are just plain wrong/broken.

1.) With Fire/Sonic/Electric Resist of 30 on my paladin and 20+ saves, I was taking a heck of a lot of damage. So much that they killed me...5 times. I'll explain that in a moment, but if they're hitting for more then 30 (and it looked to be about 60) that's not CR 9 to 11. There's something wrong with that math.

2.) Mephits were actually trapping me in quests. They would pin me to the wall, I couldn't move, and then was bombarded on all sides. There should never be a moment where I have to fight the software just to move. It's really unfair.

Between those two elements I was killed five times. Even though I've gone toe to toe with named beholders and killed them by myself.

If a level 14 paladin with banishers, a bloodstone, +5 mithril full plate, and + fire resistance dies this much in a level 8 quest. There's a problem somewhere.

I would suggest that someone needs to go back and adjust the quest a bit. There's a lot of enemies cheating and exploiting players. Please nerf them a bit.

[Dane_McArdy]

Well, notice, MT did it by not getting nasty. He never does.

And it seemed it worked.

Well done, MT.

[Quietstorm]

Wall of Fire IMO is the only way to kill things that phase in and out, since they are immune to that now I have a good reason NOT to play the new content....The Demon Queen and the Storm Reaver will not be happy, due to this update I am going back to the GH and Desert to take out my anger of them.

I am Imphyy powerful sorc on Argo server....Leader of Beyond the Minds Eye, a guild of Castoholics.

[tihocan]

What level was your guildie?
I think last time I did it with a normal group on elite (I think with a 8-10 group) it did seem a bit tougher than I expected, but we still made it without wiping. It was a few months ago though.

[Kisaragi]

Level 6 I believe. They wanted to try it, and I offered it on elite didn't think there should be any problems. Plenty of other quests in the game level 8 and at 14 I can do it with my eyes closed.

[MrCow]

I had banishers, and a bloodstone, and I was hardly banishing CR9s.

Elite greater elementals can't be banished due to having more than 25 HD.

The mephits, I wager, have a decent will save on elite due to the fact that they have a good will save progression.

1.) With Fire/Sonic/Electric Resist of 30 on my paladin and 20+ saves, I was taking a heck of a lot of damage. So much that they killed me...5 times.

Air Mephit Abrasive Breath, if I recall, is piercing damage (not sonic). The only way to stop this damage is evasion on a successful reflex save.

2.) Mephits were actually trapping me in quests. They would pin me to the wall, I couldn't move, and then was bombarded on all sides.

A common issue with mephits, actually. Its nice to see the winged elemental rats have anti-player tactics.

I would suggest that someone needs to go back and adjust the quest a bit.

It is one of the hardest level 6 quests in the game, no doubt about that. It could easily use a second shrine or some thinning in some parts. However, if you have ways to crowd control the elementals/mephits then the quest is much easier (fear, hypnotism, etc.). It is a melee unfriendly quest with how mephits work and how hard earth elementals can hit.




Oh, and this glaring error got to me:

That was with a BAB of 24

With a BAB of 24... wouldn't you be a level 28 paladin?

In all seriousness, I remember elite mephits and elementals (CR 14) having AC somewhere in the low 30s.

[Wulf_Ratbane]

I've cut the rate at which shadows and wraiths "phase out" on hit down to a third of what it currently is (which is half of what it was before). I'll look into the possibility of getting a spell, paladin aura effect, or weapon effect that forces them to stay put.

You'll note that Quells, which are also incorporeal, don't do any of the phasing.

Thanks Eladrin.

You know, if you had the means to do it, I'd love to see the phasing stuff smart enough to phase OUT when there is persistent AoE on the field, and not phase back IN till it's gone.

That would be an effective and realistic use of that particular power, and wouldn't require "unfair" immunities.

[Impaqt]

The devs have said multiple times that Hard/Elite scale higher than level. a Level 6 Quest on Elite is probobly more along the lies of a l10-11 QUest.

Perhaps you should of run the quest normally rather than zerging it...... The "I'm uber, I can zerg this in 5 minutes" mentality has caused many unnecessary deaths.

Heck, I've been killed onmy l14 in Freshen the AIr onElite.... Thats a l3.... lol.

[Seneca_Windforge]

I have got to say get a grip folks. So what firewall does not work, try other spells. Cone of cold works on those shadows in vol for instance. We did the exact same strategy in vol that people have been doing since it came out. It was just the arcanes used cone of cold in addition to firewall and melees had to swing their swords a little. An arcane actually has to have more then one spell on their hotbar. WAWAWAWA

Norg

...except that, realistically, you aren't going to be able to hit them very well with any other spell. They're going to be phasing in and out too quickly, and you're very likely to wind up wasting lots of mana on spells that hit nothing but air.

[Svetelana]

Hoping that you were bugged...

I just did it on elite with my 14 pally.....loaded out same gear that you had and it was no problem.....

I only took damage when I jumped in the lava to fight an ele and once on an earth grab....darn one's! :P

I used a ban ss, wounder khop (for rocks) the whole way thru.......