Official Shadow/Wall of Fire Feedback thread. - PLEASE KEEP ALL DISCUSSION HERE.

[TommyBoy]

I have not faced Shadows yet so maybe I'm missing something. Do they phase in and out like wraiths? If so thats not that bad. just line them up and hit then with a different spell. you dont need targeting for Lightning bolt or melfs. Just a thought.

I do agree that the dev dont really think through thier solutions example CK's auto agro.


Edited for missing word*

[Twerpp]

Yeah dude, their solution was to spawn a bunch of the most bugged mob in existence and then on top of that make them immune to the most effective way of dealing with them. Total BS. If they fixed the bugs on wraiths/shadows/incorps it may be forgiveable but they didnt even attempt that for this update.

[ErgonomicCat]

One random data point:

In PnP, focusing on fire damage is generally considered the weakest of all the damage types, because so many things are resistant or immune to it. Electric, Cold, Acid and Sonic damages are resisted less, and are thus typically better choices for dealing damage consistently to mobs....

My first sorc in DDO was acid/electric focused, because I assumed that fire would be the easy way to do damage, but also the least efficient in the long run. Then I read the forums and found that not to be the case. But I'm not surprised that it is changing.

I will say that a simple blanket immunity isn't a good fix, though. Some justification is needed, and possibly a warning for players in the quest.

But as posted above, you can get it good, fast, and right. Pick two.

[GuitarHero]

Oh, and this glaring error got to me:



With a BAB of 24... wouldn't you be a level 28 paladin?

you REALLY should read about the Premium Services, for a mear $9,999,999.99 (plus tax) you can unlock epic levels. P)

[Oreg]

Guildie and I ran this with a pug on elite last night for favor and did not experience any difficulties at all like this. Fire resistance and 51 ac and I did not get hit at all really. No problems hitting them either with a +3 icy burst bastard sword of something (maybe pure good). I think you may have been bugged or extremely unlucky.

[Dane_McArdy]

Well since the direct methods of communication don't accomplish anything, I don't see a problem with using them (with the hope that on some off chance they will help) and also posting issues on the forums.



People play games for enjoyment. Really annoying = a problem.



Well these are bad analogies, but since you picked them I'll go along with you. What kind of data recovery method exists in DDO? People ran quest like Madstone Crater and just because multiple people talked to the end guy to complete, the quest bugged out giving no XP. If a recovery system existed, DMs would look into the matter and grant the appropriate XP. I've seen this many times from DMs though - they are absolutely not allowed to grant XP to players, no matter what the reason.

Furthermore, I personally have lost millions of gold through the AH/mail system. I know many others who have as well. The response from DMs is always the same - they can't grant players any kind of compensation for their bugged mail system. Data recovery? I wish.



And I'm willing to bet if you made blatant mistakes in your work that you repeated over and over without attempting to fix, you would lose your job.



Examples like incorporeal phasing aren't honest mistakes or rushed work. They are poor design over a long period of time and refusal to fix mistakes. Much worse than the two alternatives you pose.

(The "fixes" in this last update are examples of rushed work though)



Nor can I.



They get dinged for taking too long because they take so long and still turn out rubbish when it's done. Then they turn around and rush fixes that create even more of an uproar.



So you admit, when faced with a "problem" the devs just take the easy and not very creative approach of checking boxes?



We're finding out since Monday's patch...



I wondered about the spelling...

And nothing is wrong with that attitude, I was just pointing out that not everyone has it. You frequently say things here about the correct approach to use when trying to motivate the devs - I was just pointing out that the proper way to approach you isn't necessarily the proper way to approach them.



I'm not advocating being outright rude to people. I'm saying that using negative reinforcement works in some cases better than positive reinforcement.

Explaining to game designers who rely on subscribers to pay their wages that they are ****ing us off and ruining our game experience and that we would prefer that they do X instead should be motivating.

Maybe you are right though....turbine doesn't listen when we put things in subscriptions terms, they don't listen when we put things in lack of fun terms, and they certainly don't listen when we offer valid alternatives. Maybe if we all sent then holiday care packages they would lay down the player/forum-goer/customer whacker for a few minutes.

I had a response, but near the end, I thought, I don't need to defend myself.

[Bogenbroom]

Um, just don't have them phase. The simplest solutions are often the best.

I understand the sentiment, but I have to say the phasing creatures are a needed variation to the creature store. It is something the bestiary in the game, any game for that matter, needs. Otherwise you are just fighting the same thing with a different skin.

I very much like the idea of having different creatures requiring different strategies. I just believe that phased creatures need to be more flushed out in terms of options for combating them.

[LeLoric]

Yeah dude, their solution was to spawn a bunch of the most bugged mob in existence and then on top of that make them immune to the most effective way of dealing with them. Total BS. If they fixed the bugs on wraiths/shadows/incorps it may be forgiveable but they didnt even attempt that for this update.

Kinda reminds me of the old threnal south nerf: Add 100 slimes make them spawn right next to lots of bad enemies so noone would be able to go in there without taking massive weapon dmg. I thought we were past these types of fixes but i guess im wrong.

[Ustice]

See Invisibility should work to allow us to see them, since it allows you to see into the ethereal plane. Ghost Touch weapons should allow us to hit them even when not manifested. So all you have to do is change it so that instead of "Phasing out," they go invisible. This would also take care of the thing where we lose targeting.

Just make it work like that, and we are all good.

[Kalanth]

Truth be told, Phasing is not so bad...



When Fire Wall works on them...

[Dane_McArdy]

See Invisibility should work to allow us to see them, since it allows you to see into the ethereal plane. Ghost Touch weapons should allow us to hit them even when not manifested. So all you have to do is change it so that instead of "Phasing out," they go invisible. This would also take care of the thing where we lose targeting.

Just make it work like that, and we are all good.

Seeing them isn't the problem, it's that they aren't physical, and see invisiiblity doesn't make things physical.

[Kisaragi]

Oh, and this glaring error got to me:



With a BAB of 24... wouldn't you be a level 28 paladin?

In all seriousness, I remember elite mephits and elementals (CR 14) having AC somewhere in the low 30s.

I mean as in with weapons/armor/feats. Unbuffed so to speak. The base for a character. I know base attack means something else.

[Perceval418]

friendly fire = griefing. End of story.

Exactly. You might as well just outright ask for open PvP in all instances across the server, because thats what would happen. It would be Diablo all over again only without the hacks...

[Yaga_Nub]

Seeing them isn't the problem, it's that they aren't physical, and see invisiiblity doesn't make things physical.

But add a ghost-touched weapon and you've solved the problem. I think that's what he was saying.

And to the comment about MT never getting nasty....... well sometimes it's just more fun to get nasty.

[SneakThief]

See Invisibility should work to allow us to see them, since it allows you to see into the ethereal plane. Ghost Touch weapons should allow us to hit them even when not manifested. So all you have to do is change it so that instead of "Phasing out," they go invisible. This would also take care of the thing where we lose targeting.

Just make it work like that, and we are all good.

Seeing them isn't the problem, it's that they aren't physical, and see invisiiblity doesn't make things physical.

Actually ... there was a dev quote way back that basically said they were phasing into the floor. Incorporeal creatures are allowed to do that. Any solid object: walls, floors, etc. They have to stay adjacent to the edge of the object and they can move in the object.

So the explanation was that they are phasing into the floor, moving 10 feet and popping back up. In that case, its not a matter of seeing them, you would need to see through the floor.

The only problem is the rate in which they do this. There are no rules that I can find that govern this other than the general movement rules. IMO, they should stay out of the floor for at least one full melee attack sequence (approx one round)

[Dane_McArdy]

But add a ghost-touched weapon and you've solved the problem. I think that's what he was saying.

And to the comment about MT never getting nasty....... well sometimes it's just more fun to get nasty.

Until you lose the right to say anything for being nasty.

[Dane_McArdy]

But add a ghost-touched weapon and you've solved the problem. I think that's what he was saying.

And to the comment about MT never getting nasty....... well sometimes it's just more fun to get nasty.

Phasing isn't going incorporal, mind you. The ghost touched weapon solves that problem.

And like E said, they are toning down the rate at which mobs phase. Again.

[MysticTheurge]

The only problem is the rate in which they do this. There are no rules that I can find that govern this other than the general movement rules. IMO, they should stay out of the floor for at least one full melee attack sequence (approx one round)

Yeah, but as I've said, the Ready action alters this entire dynamic. All a melee character has to do is "Ready an attack if any enemy appears within reach" then there's no reappearing behind you and getting in a potshot before disappearing.

A caster or ranged character has to do even less. "Ready a searing light for when a shadow re-emerges from the floor" and you're all set. As soon as they appear, you cast the spell on them, and it happens. Nothing disappearing while your casting and spending your spells on an "invalid target."

Slowing down the rate at which they phase is good, but still not really faithful to the spirit of D&D in these situations. Adding some more means to combat this will help too. I suppose I could be satisfied with those two things.

[Gabrion]

I had a response, but near the end, I thought, I don't need to defend myself.

Well at least your existential crisis is over now that you've accepted that yourself=DDO.

[Laith]

alters this entire dynamic. All a melee character has to do is "Ready a full attack if any enemy appears within reach"

you can't ready full actions