Revamping Elite

[Knightrose]

Over the course of the last 2 years I've rolled a lot of new characters. I've played every dungeon. Top to bottom, Normal, Hard and Elite. The following are my opinions. I rarely bother to sit down and share them at this magnitude. So please, if you are a DDO player, and enjoy this game, read the following and reply intelligently. I encourage logic in all facets of life, even gaming.

Please at least read the first line!

My goal here is to maintain an optimistic outlook. I'm not trying to downplay DDO's current design. I'm trying (hopefully) to inspire some enhancement to DDO. I believe that Elite should still offer increased XP and loot rewards. But I want to also suggest that some changes should be made.

Difficulty: Hard ~
I never truly understood having a middle man. A time waster? Something to keep the masses from soloing Elite after their first run? A 'fun' free option? Never liked having the Hard setting. It should be Normal and then Elite. No point crying over XP loss from not having the Hard choice. That can always be modified to compensate when only having Normal and Elite.

Difficulty: Elite ~
I've never agreed by DDO's particular definition of an Elite difficulty. The Elite setting in DDO is very much first-person shooter style. Everything in the dungeon gets beefed up and their new stats play way out of sync with D&D rules (including DDO rules); an overall level of challenge, and more importantly entertainment, is lost.

Instead because of this, dungeons on Elite feel like a rat race. Or at the very least a stamina test. Basically a way for min/maxed characters to push their limits. Who hits the hardest, who has the best Spell DC. I've always felt that in a lot of dungeons on Elite the 'non-min/maxers' lose ground. So of course since the greatest reward is usually gained on Elite, character classes get mutated or abandoned for a min/max build. It leaves alot of useful/interesting spells, abillities and skills unused. Shame.

Personally I think Elite should be revamped. By that I mean the Elite setting should still host a greater challenge but without genetically altering the CR of all the creatures within the dungeon. I wish to promote a change.

(The following is based on ideas I got from DM's I've known)

Some ideas for revamping Elite:

Number of Monsters ~
Roll back the clock a bit and remember the days of AD&D. On Elite in DDO I think most dungeons should simply have more monsters. Maybe a whole lot more monsters. But they shouldn't be any stronger then how they are on Normal. Maybe add more monsters and throw in a few sub-bosses to lead them. More Worgs to Trip your party would certainly be entertaining .

Even on Elite just about any group of monsters can easily be stopped in their charge. You rarely feel overwhelmed; ever. A frontline is instantly formed by spells or Intimidating or say even a crazy Barbarian (hitting everything to gain the aggro). The A.I. for most monsters seems a simple thing to bait and control. So therefore the party is almost never over-run or even pushed back. A greater number of monsters could possibly increase this challenge and certainly make it more fun. At least I think it's more fun when everyone in the group participates to hold back a swarm of creatures.

More monsters could also make it more difficult for dungeons to be completed in extremely short periods of time. I realize a good number of players beat their chests when they are praised for their 9minute Doomsphere's Haunt run. But in reality it cheapens the experience and makes every dungeon a loot run. Having more monsters in this way might also make it more difficult or impossible for a single player to bunny-hop passed monsters to complete a dungeon.

More monsters could also mean more lag. I have no solutions for that. That's your department.

Rest Areas ~
Remove rest shrines from a dungeon on Elite. Cornering a group of players to use some actual tactics would be (I think) more fun. It would allow them to 'use up' their characters full potential. No Rest Shrines on Elite could completely change the way a quest is completed. I'm sure it would even make Rogues a bit more useful.

Leaving/Re-entering ~
Offer no loot or XP rewards for players that leave a dungeon on Elite and re-enter it. Doing so could help to teach some players how to show up better prepared. You would certainly show more respect for the status of the other members in the party. You'd also (hopefully) be less likely to charge off into the darkness leaving your comrades behind. Claiming all the glory and enjoyment for yourself. An act even I am guilty of. (My apologies to those I've annoyed.)

Coupons! ~
Elite should offer different kinds of rewards. Perhaps completing a Raid on Elite (or accomplashing certain optional goals) could award the party discounts in shops local to the Raid Dungeon. Discounts or Coupons for things like scrolls or potions would simply make you feel good. Not to mention help stitch up the old coin purse.

Perhaps these Coupons could even act like vouchers to help you skip a step the next time you get ready to run the raid again. Sort of like a Get Out Of Jail Free card for pre-req dungeons. (I swear on my soul I would use every single one for Chains :P )

Anyway I've got a lot of ideas, I don't want to write a book. The purpose of this was just to get some juices flowing. Some thinking going. I very much hope that in the future the difficulty of dungeons is revamped.

[moorewr]

/signed!

[barabel]

I like the ideas you've thrown out and I couldn't agree more with the notion that more monsters (with some mini-bosses) would/could significantly improve the difficulty of a lot of the quests.

With regards to Shrines, I would submit that only the Rest shrines should be disabled/removed. Eliminating the Resurrection shrines I think imposes too much of a burden on the party. If there aren't rest shrines, then death will be more significant and that should be penalty enough I think.

It does seems cheap that spellcasters who don't care about XP simply pop in, cast their spells/buffs, then recall out for mana whenever they need it. Instead of eliminating all XP and Loot, what about a sliding scale? Increase the XP recall penalty by an additional -10% each time and drop their loot table results by 1. That way for those people who need to or are forced to they aren't totally boned.

Just tossing my 2 cp into the mix here.

[Onubis]

/half-signed

disabling rest shrines would make long quests almost impossible, without recalling, ooooh then i get no loot on elite with what ur saying. Sorry even a sor with 34 cha and arch-magi does not have enough sp to last many of the super long quests. (unless ur trying to tell me how to play my sor?) I do a bit of cc and killing, i do manage my sp well.

since ur also suggesting increased amount of monsters, then an increased amount of sp will have to be used, i fear for any class thats not a sor in this aspect. Of course, i could be speaking with a person that hates casters and i can't help with that.

i agree include more monsters, subbosses etc. Make every named possible spawn on elite.

sidenote: also respawning mobs is a lame way of making a quest harder.

sorry if this is double post, internet is acting up

[Prinstoni]

I am not opposed to seeing more mobs on elite instead of beefed up dc's and level NPCS.

However, other than some much needed changes that we have been screaming for for almost 2 years now, I am opposed to the devs doing anything besides developing new content.

[QuantumFX]

Personally I'd rather see Elite become Hard with friendly fire. It then becomes a player skill challenge and something worthy of the term "Elite"

[Taoxos]

Difficulty: Hard ~
I never truly understood having a middle man. A time waster? Something to keep the masses from soloing Elite after their first run? A 'fun' free option? Never liked having the Hard setting. It should be Normal and then Elite. No point crying over XP loss from not having the Hard choice. That can always be modified to compensate when only having Normal and Elite.

It is an attempt to make a harder setting for laid back players who don't want to go through the trials and trivilations of Elite. It also provides more xp/loot that Normal, while only providing a mild increase to difficulty... Without a middle man, you'd have problems getting gas (as you would have to go via some means of transportation, which you would have to do by yourself, then buy the petrolium, then refine it)... Liking the middle man or not, it provides jobs and makes advancements in humanity, science, culture, and even religion easier...as well as making things more convenient for you, the consumer.

Difficulty: Elite ~
I've never agreed by DDO's particular definition of an Elite difficulty. The Elite setting in DDO is very much first-person shooter style. Everything in the dungeon gets beefed up and their new stats play way out of sync with D&D rules (including DDO rules); an overall level of challenge, and more importantly entertainment, is lost.

FPS? Seriously? They don't make the enemy stronger in most FPS's either...they usually add more and make them smarter (fantasy FPS's wind up giving the enemy some sort of shields, or increases the shields). More often than not, in an FPS, the enemy simply can shoot better, so more head shots, which means you die faster (if you don't adapt).

I'll remind you that you level your character (which is what a DM does to NPCs to make them harder), which increases your stats... The DM does the same thing to his characters as you do to yours (stat increase every four levels, feats every third, increased HP due to magic items, increased bonus of ALL sorts due to magic items***, etc...). That is exactly what D&D rules say, which means that since DDO is doing what D&D rules say, they're in sync...

Instead because of this, dungeons on Elite feel like a rat race. Or at the very least a stamina test. Basically a way for min/maxed characters to push their limits. Who hits the hardest, who has the best Spell DC. I've always felt that in a lot of dungeons on Elite the 'non-min/maxers' lose ground. So of course since the greatest reward is usually gained on Elite, character classes get mutated or abandoned for a min/max build. It leaves alot of useful/interesting spells, abillities and skills unused. Shame.

Umm...they are a rat race... As I recall, you can't use Dim Door or Fly, so it's not like you'll be able to do many of the things you could do in DDO. They're all dungeons (even the ones with the sky showing). They're all a maze (although, some less confusing than others, although none of them confuse me). More laid back characters won't care to do the Elite setting as they aren't wanting to push their limits (which is what Elite was designed for...).

And in all actuality, the "mutated character classes" or the "min/max builds" are actually designed to makes use of the wide variety of "useful/interesting spells, abilities and skills". A Pally-sorc combines the LoH, healing ability, and charisma bonus to saves of a paladin with the high sp, fast spellcasting of a sorc (and since a sorc only has high sp and fast spellcasting, there's nothing left out of sorc). The only thing that a paladin leaves out is the...umm....I'm guessing the enhanced auras and fear immunity (which there are builds to get three levels of paladin, which makes all of those be used as well). There are wizard-rogues (TOO useful, as far as some are concerned, but a great pet, as far as I'm concerned), Pally-Fighter (to avoid those blamn spellcasters' spells from affecting him), Wizard-Barbarian (combines that buffing ability with great dps), and, Hell, even a Rangerr-Cleric was seen on Sarlona a few nights ago (doesn't make sense to me, but I don't ask people why they build their builds)... I've seen all kinds of combinations of every class in the game, both as multiclassed characters and straight class characters, just so they can make use of different abilities...so I don't think Elite was designed for multiclassed or "min/max" characters (which, I'm assuming, would be those characters who decided to do Pally2/Sorc12, right? You should define what you mean by "min/max" in regards to DDO, as in D&D, it means putting dodge bonuses on every piece of equipment you own, even your shirt...and yes, it's legit..).

Personally I think Elite should be revamped. By that I mean the Elite setting should still host a greater challenge but without genetically altering the CR of all the creatures within the dungeon. I wish to promote a change.

I can't argue too much with this... I mean, I would like a change to increase the difficulty a little (not so much that it wipes every party, but not so little that the quests are still a breeze...literally...). However, adjusting the CR of a creature is the only thing that can be done. When you add one NPC to another NPC to fight against the party, you increase the CR of both creatures (as the Challenge Rating is increase for the encounter, as well as each NPC, due to having back-up). Adding 10 mobs to a quest increases the CR of each mob added... That's just how CR works, ironically enough...

Number of Monsters ~
Roll back the clock a bit and remember the days of AD&D. On Elite in DDO I think most dungeons should simply have more monsters. Maybe a whole lot more monsters. But they shouldn't be any stronger then how they are on Normal. Maybe add more monsters and throw in a few sub-bosses to lead them. More Worgs to Trip your party would certainly be entertaining .

Okay... To be completely honest, I like this idea... Of course, it also means that Fireball (or Chain Lightning...) would destroy all and rule all (not to mention Wall of Fire, as it has a duration). Combine this with the friendly fire, and mages would be envied and hated at the same time... Of course, more people would just be full sorcs and blast the **** out of the mobs. Soloing elite quests would be EASY...heh, heh, heh... I absolutely love this idea, and I think the Devs should include this in at least one elite quest in every house and place that gives quests out...heh.

Even on Elite just about any group of monsters can easily be stopped in their charge. You rarely feel overwhelmed; ever. A frontline is instantly formed by spells or Intimidating or say even a crazy Barbarian (hitting everything to gain the aggro). The A.I. for most monsters seems a simple thing to bait and control. So therefore the party is almost never over-run or even pushed back. A greater number of monsters could possibly increase this challenge and certainly make it more fun. At least I think it's more fun when everyone in the group participates to hold back a swarm of creatures.

I refer you to my above statement... Fireball... One mage...thousands of kobold bodies...envious party...

More monsters could also make it more difficult for dungeons to be completed in extremely short periods of time. I realize a good number of players beat their chests when they are praised for their 9minute Doomsphere's Haunt run. But in reality it cheapens the experience and makes every dungeon a loot run. Having more monsters in this way might also make it more difficult or impossible for a single player to bunny-hop passed monsters to complete a dungeon.

Now, see, I have to completely disagree with this point... Chain Lightning, Fireball, Haste, Jump, and that quest is over in a matter of minutes... Seriously... Most 14th lvl mages can solo TS on norm (except for the end guy...). If all you did was add way more mobs to make the quest Elite, then all you would have would be more sp usage...or less, since some mages just PK and FoD everything, which would make doing Fireball and Chain Lightning more SP effecient (situations/mages vary). And Invaders! will be one of the fastest loot runs I'd ever know (true, there'd be six beholders in an area instead of three, but all would die because they all would die on Normal with your basic non-heightened PK...heh, heh, heh...).

More monsters could also mean more lag. I have no solutions for that. That's your department.

Don't give them the idea that we don't mind lag! We'll never get the notion out of thier head!

Lol, Seriously, I would love more creatures and less lag, but more creatures means more programming, which means more time delay, which couples with latency to form some pretty crappy lag... However, you suggesting more monsters isn't your department either, but I suppose you are trying to combat a lack of challenge (don't the monsters already have a Mass Finger of Death? Just checking...).
[quote=Knightrose;1401853]Rest Areas ~
Remove rest shrines from a dungeon on Elite. Cornering a group of players to use some actual tactics would be (I think) more fun. It would allow them to 'use up' their characters full potential. No Rest Shrines on Elite could completely change the way a quest is completed. I'm sure it would even make Rogues a bit more useful.
Not if your next point takes effect... I mean, you can only prepare for so much... You have a limited number of backpack space, so you can only carry X number of scrolls, wands, potions, material components, etc. to make sure you're prepared... And to be full prepared, you'd have to go through the quest, which means you'd likely die, many times before knowing everything about the quest to have everything you'd need. Being prepared isn't very "fun"... Well, I should rephrase that: Preparing yourself for anything isn't very "fun", but being prepared is great "fun". Of course, that leads to people who don't want to play a boring game where they just stack all the potions and scrolls on their character "just in case"...

Leaving/Re-entering ~
Offer no loot or XP rewards for players that leave a dungeon on Elite and re-enter it. Doing so could help to teach some players how to show up better prepared. You would certainly show more respect for the status of the other members in the party. You'd also (hopefully) be less likely to charge off into the darkness leaving your comrades behind. Claiming all the glory and enjoyment for yourself. An act even I am guilty of. (My apologies to those I've annoyed.)

And those people genuinely hit Release by accident? They just got screwed for their loot and xp...? And if the cleric(s) die without any Ressuration shrine anywhere close (or if it's back a ways where you can't actually climb back up to get to it), then what? I don't know if you know this little fact or not...but not all characters can cast Raise Dead (or have a means to use UMD to cast it from a scroll, or haven't loot ran for a Res ring, which is exactly what you're attempting to prevent)... Yep...I see a lot more complaints than "Thank you"...

Coupons! ~
Elite should offer different kinds of rewards. Perhaps completing a Raid on Elite (or accomplashing certain optional goals) could award the party discounts in shops local to the Raid Dungeon. Discounts or Coupons for things like scrolls or potions would simply make you feel good. Not to mention help stitch up the old coin purse.

Perhaps these Coupons could even act like vouchers to help you skip a step the next time you get ready to run the raid again. Sort of like a Get Out Of Jail Free card for pre-req dungeons. (I swear on my soul I would use every single one for Chains :P )

And would these Coupons/Vouchers be stackable and persistant? Can I save 20 of them so that I can cash them in to do all of the raid in one day (without having done the prereqs first)? That looks more like a precursor to enabling loot runs, which would lower difficulty due to more good items, which would go against your main concept here.

And yes, I would use one for the Chains as well.

/half-signed

disabling rest shrines would make long quests almost impossible, without recalling, ooooh then i get no loot on elite with what ur saying. Sorry even a sor with 34 cha and arch-magi does not have enough sp to last many of the super long quests. (unless ur trying to tell me how to play my sor?) I do a bit of cc and killing, i do manage my sp well.

since ur also suggesting increased amount of monsters, then an increased amount of sp will have to be used, i fear for any class thats not a sor in this aspect. Of course, i could be speaking with a person that hates casters and i can't help with that.

Yes...

My poor Wizzy! Noooooooo!!! Darn...now he has to lose out on the loot and xp so that he can help the rest of the party finish Madstone Crater on Elite...

But yes, I definitely agree with Onubis on this point...

Personally I'd rather see Elite become Hard with friendly fire. It then becomes a player skill challenge and something worthy of the term "Elite"

While it would be interesting to throw friendly fire in, people would isolate casters from the party, or they would refuse to accept casters in the party, due to the possibility of death (combined with that no recall thing...that would definitely suck).

And believe me...there would be a few parties I would take my caster and cause a wipe simply because they don't know how to be friendly to the casters and clerics...(yes, I'm talking to you demanding zergers!). Lol.

Personally I'd rather see Elite become Hard with friendly fire. It then becomes a player skill challenge and something worthy of the term "Elite"

This might be interesting...lol!

But again...Fireball...heh, heh, heh... >

Sorry this was so long...you can Flesh to Stone me later...heh...

[QuantumFX]

While it would be interesting to throw friendly fire in, people would isolate casters from the party, or they would refuse to accept casters in the party, due to the possibility of death (combined with that no recall thing...that would definitely suck).

And believe me...there would be a few parties I would take my caster and cause a wipe simply because they don't know how to be friendly to the casters and clerics...(yes, I'm talking to you demanding zergers!). Lol.

Or force the group to coordinate. If a party is stupid enough to not invite a caster because of AoE on elite then they're not elite players.