Bard/Quest Fixes Needed (Short Version)

[HumanJHawkins]

I'll keep these short in hopes they will actually be read. PM me for more info if needed.

1) Bards are so nerfed at low level, even the newbie solo quests are almost impossible to live through. Just try it and the reasons will be obvious... Send 5 QA guys through Berregan Enge's solo with a 1st level Bard, and tell me how many live through it. (My guess: 0)

2) Kobold island: I was 70 XP from 2nd level, so I thought I would do Kobold island to level. After 35 minutes running all over creation trying to find the things, and using all of my starter potions to stay alive, I finally kill the 20th kobold to get 30 XP and NOT level. 30 XP? You have got to be kidding me!

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

*snip*
1) Bards are so nerfed at low level, even the newbie solo quests are almost impossible to live through. Just try it and the reasons will be obvious... Send 5 QA guys through Berregan Enge's solo with a 1st level Bard, and tell me how many live through it. (My guess: 0)*snip*

huh...I think my rogues had more trouble than my bard...
Dagger quest used to...oh wait...no that was elite...
I remember having to do the sullys twice on my baby rogue.
And running out of components before completing sullys with my sorc...
Had to pay someone to go get me some components...so I could leave the tavern.<SIGH>

[RichD]

I've created a few bards recently as permadeath characters and getting through all the solos and the goodblades on norm and the low road on norm should get you just to level 2, and can be run alone.

If your new bard characters are dying in the solo quests you're doing something wrong either in the build or when fighting. In the solo quests virtually every mob dies when it takes any damage at all - i.e., one hit. So, even a non-melee oriented character should have no problem fighting their way through.

A first level bard should either have Cure Light, in which case you should be able to keep yourself alive, or one of the mez spells (Hypno is my preference) to help prevent having to fight multiple mobs simultaneously.

Berrigans is the biggest challenge for the Hypno bard since his spell is useless, but meleeing the named iron defender is certainly doable. I typically run each of the solo quests twice with my newbie and I've made it through Berrigan's 6/6 times in the past few weeks with level 1 Bards.

[Cirlandir]

2) Kobold island: I was 70 XP from 2nd level, so I thought I would do Kobold island to level. After 35 minutes running all over creation trying to find the things, and using all of my starter potions to stay alive, I finally kill the 20th kobold to get 30 XP and NOT level. 30 XP? You have got to be kidding me!

Skip kobold island if you want xp. Worthless waste of time.

[HorridForm]

Bards are awesome. The player is just bad. Use the Bards god like CC abilities to dominate.

In the low levels you can charm person and sleep to your hearts content. Fire Sphere scrolls are godly seeing as you can spam them forever and use them to DPS alongside your minions. As you build in levels alternate charm person with extended suggestion and soundburst for casters. Go back and take ottos for orange boss mobs. Halt Undead and Fireball wands are nifty for deleras type stages. Fire Sphere should still hold some value. Eventually your cc will wear thin, at about this time you can grab blur, haste, and goodhope to boost your party up. Once you can get charm monster your cc powers should be near unstoppable in the level 7-10 dungeons.

In all honesty a Bard is 1 of the most powerful solo classes in the game. You can do anything if built and played right.

Practice the tactics I suggested and you will be soloing the entire harbor at level 1-2 with no problems whatsoever

[Arianrhod]

Bards are awesome. The player is just bad. Use the Bards god like CC abilities to dominate.

In the low levels you can charm person and sleep to your hearts content. Fire Sphere scrolls are godly seeing as you can spam them forever and use them to DPS alongside your minions. As you build in levels alternate charm person with extended suggestion and soundburst for casters. Go back and take ottos for orange boss mobs. Halt Undead and Fireball wands are nifty for deleras type stages. Fire Sphere should still hold some value. Eventually your cc will wear thin, at about this time you can grab blur, haste, and goodhope to boost your party up. Once you can get charm monster your cc powers should be near unstoppable in the level 7-10 dungeons.

In all honesty a Bard is 1 of the most powerful solo classes in the game. You can do anything if built and played right.

Practice the tactics I suggested and you will be soloing the entire harbor at level 1-2 with no problems whatsoever

Erm....while I agree that bards should be able to solo level-appropriate solo quests without much difficulty (inability to do so indicates a need to revise player tactics), they aren't one of the easiest to solo with at first level. Remember - first level bards get ONE bardsong. Not exactly "godly crowd control", and more effectively used as a fairly minor buff that will last most of the quest. They also suffer arcane spell failure if they equip a shield (anyone who has a mithril light shield at first level is a twink who has no business complaining that they can't solo), so suffer from poor AC (starter leather + no shield = AC 12+dex bonus, maybe AC 14-15; even in level 1 quests, that AC gets hit fairly often). Cure Light Wounds is the most sensible choice for a first level bard with no one passing down equipment (no endless supply of CLW wands), since there aren't any quests where things will be immune to their one & only spell (undead, of course, being immune to things like charm person & hypnotism), so they are often faced with using crummy starter weapons with an underwhelming strength bonus and healing themselves with limited spell points & possible spell failure...doable, certainly, but not always a breeze.

[Missing_Minds]

1) Bards are so nerfed at low level, even the newbie solo quests are almost impossible to live through. Just try it and the reasons will be obvious... Send 5 QA guys through Berregan Enge's solo with a 1st level Bard, and tell me how many live through it. (My guess: 0)

You died in that? I soloed everything with my halfing bard of that starter stuff and didn't come close to dying. Come now Giacomo, let us see this build of yours that died so merrily. As well, just what are your computer specs? Computer inability could have added to your bards most untimely of deaths.

[Zenako]

First point. Stick to what works for the character. I did not try to beat things I had no skills for. You can get to level 2 without having to face any machines or undead if you want to. If you have poor STR, hopefully you have a nice DEX and then use ranged attacks and movement. Hypotism is a big friend. Something like the Low Road can be run REAL easy with a Bard and if you really just want EXP, you can ransack it in under an hour.

Also keep in mind the quest objective. Something like the Low Road does not require you to kill ANYTHING. You need to flip a few switches and if your enemies are Hypnotized or sleeping, just sneak up to the switch, flip it and move on. Sneak past the end shaman and grab the rope. Voila, quest done and 1000 Exp in the bank. Work on Solo-Normal-Hard and Elite. Less than 5 minutes to run through it. Now at level 2 you have more options, more songs, more enhancments and access to another spell IIRC.

Undead do not like Cure Spells and at the low level quests they will die from repeated castings of CLW. I also tended to pick up Monster Summon 1. That dog would kick your butt at levels 1/2 and it kicks butt on the mobs too.

I have a capped bard, and another newbie human, level 3 now IIRC, that I just ran some of those quests recently with. It is only recently that I sent any minor twinkage her way.

[HumanJHawkins]

Summary and response to the various criticisms:

1) Bards aren't nerfed, you can hypno stuff.
I know the power of hypno from my sorcerer. It is great and that's why I took it for my one and only 1st lvl spell. Tell me how to hypnotize a metal dog or a scorpion and I will gladly stand corrected.

2) Your build is bad.
Maybe so... This is too subjective to nail down. I can tell you that I am not twinked... Some people would say that is bad. I also have the end game in mind, so did not put a whole lot into melee combat ability. I think I have about a 10 str and a 14 dex, with a heavy focus on charisma.

The point is, I am talking about the SOLO quests here... You know... The ones that a bad fighter with bad tactics can safely go AFK in the middle of battle on. I am not asking to be a great combatant... Not even a good one. But it should be nearly impossible to get killed on those.

3) Your tactics are bad.
Ok... tell me what I did wrong the 2 times I died in Berregen enge's quest. Heres what I did (and this is just an example... BlackTail and the Captain of the Guard pwned me too):

Go down the path... Hypno won't work and there won't be time to switch weapons, so break out the starter sicle. Kill the first dog... Take a hit or two in the process, HP down to 20+/- from 28. No starter potions left after other quests, so just carry on.

Swing wide and try to get a bow shot or two off on the next two dogs... Miss twice while running backward... Switch back to sickle, draw them to a wall so you don't get attacked from both sides. kill them... down to 10 HP.

Talk to what's-his-name. Open the door and run back to get some more bow shots in... Get greased as you run backward. Fall down. Get eaten.

Recall out, heal up, figure it will be easy to go back in and finish it. Go down the path and stop way in the back... Far enough away that you can't even see him. Start shooting where you know he must be... Notice you are missing... Good. That means you are aiming in the right place. Hit once. This starts him running toward you... Hit again while he runs the distance. Get greased. Fall down. Get eaten.

Recall out, heal up, go back in and kill him. Done.

So, I'm a newb at Bards. What should I have done differently?

4) Kobold Island is a stupid waste of time. Do Low Road instead.
K... That's why the thread title includes "Quest Fixes Needed". Any time you hear yourself saying "X quest or area sucks", that is a sign that something is wrong. I (now) know that I should have run something else if my goal was to level. But Kobold Island could be easily fixed by giving it 200XP for completion and putting a lvl 1 chest out there somewhere. This would turn it into a worthwhile place to go, and bring it in line with the other lvl 1 quests.

[Nott]

Even when a quest is soloable (by design), that doesn't have to mean every character can solo it every time based on every set of equipment / build. It seems that your build isn't equipped to solo this quest without a larger inventory of cure potions... that's ok. They're easily available (without spending plat) to anyone that can range barrels. (See Phiver for details.)

I have a 13 bard / 1 cleric... I had no trouble at all with any of the solo quests. In my case, my first spell was the level 1 pet. Without that pooch, soloing would not have been as easy.

[Mercules]

Summary and response to the various criticisms:

1) Bards aren't nerfed, you can hypno stuff.
I know the power of hypno from my sorcerer. It is great and that's why I took it for my one and only 1st lvl spell. Tell me how to hypnotize a metal dog or a scorpion and I will gladly stand corrected.

You can't... that is why Bards are not the ONLY class to play. Their balance is that certain things can not be affected by their magic or songs. Avoid such creatures if you can. In other words, do this quest at level 2 if you can't at level 1. My bard took CLWs and solo'd everything but WWs.

2) Your build is bad.
Maybe so... This is too subjective to nail down. I can tell you that I am not twinked... Some people would say that is bad. I also have the end game in mind, so did not put a whole lot into melee combat ability. I think I have about a 10 str and a 14 dex, with a heavy focus on charisma.

The point is, I am talking about the SOLO quests here... You know... The ones that a bad fighter with bad tactics can safely go AFK in the middle of battle on. I am not asking to be a great combatant... Not even a good one. But it should be nearly impossible to get killed on those.

Not impossible, but unlikely. I'm amazed you managed dying. You don't have negatives for your attacks. You CAN use a shield in there since you are not planning on casting at that point. It would help you live.

3) Your tactics are bad.
Ok... tell me what I did wrong the 2 times I died in Berregen enge's quest. Heres what I did (and this is just an example... BlackTail and the Captain of the Guard pwned me too):

Go down the path... Hypno won't work and there won't be time to switch weapons, so break out the starter sicle. Kill the first dog... Take a hit or two in the process, HP down to 20+/- from 28. No starter potions left after other quests, so just carry on.

Swing wide and try to get a bow shot or two off on the next two dogs... Miss twice while running backward... Switch back to sickle, draw them to a wall so you don't get attacked from both sides. kill them... down to 10 HP.

Talk to what's-his-name. Open the door and run back to get some more bow shots in... Get greased as you run backward. Fall down. Get eaten.

Recall out, heal up, figure it will be easy to go back in and finish it. Go down the path and stop way in the back... Far enough away that you can't even see him. Start shooting where you know he must be... Notice you are missing... Good. That means you are aiming in the right place. Hit once. This starts him running toward you... Hit again while he runs the distance. Get greased. Fall down. Get eaten.

Recall out, heal up, go back in and kill him. Done.

So, I'm a newb at Bards. What should I have done differently?

This is what I do with the end boss. Talk to the miller then head over to the boxes on your left when you enter. Climb up those and jump to the ones near them that have no way to climb. Now you can range the end boss at your leisure.

4) Kobold Island is a stupid waste of time. Do Low Road instead.
K... That's why the thread title includes "Quest Fixes Needed". Any time you hear yourself saying "X quest or area sucks", that is a sign that something is wrong. I (now) know that I should have run something else if my goal was to level. But Kobold Island could be easily fixed by giving it 200XP for completion and putting a lvl 1 chest out there somewhere. This would turn it into a worthwhile place to go, and bring it in line with the other lvl 1 quests.

I could agree with that, or turning it into the lowest adventure zone with Rares and locations.

Bards are good solid solo characters. They lack against constructs and undead, but otherwise can handle most foes on their own. I remember my Bard getting locked into a room with numerous angry gargoyles when I first started playing. I was able to CC them and pick them off one at a time while my friends all watched hopelessly outside the gates. I was a couple levels below the quest, but the CC combined with self healing and ok melee ability allowed me to finish them all off.

[Zenako]

Couple of quick points. You can exit and reenter Solo level quests without Penalty. So if you are getting hurt, step out and let the Sun of Stormreach warm your bones for a few minutes, then go back in.

What spell(s) did you choose at the start? CLW is fine, Hypnotism is great, but for getting through the early quests that do have some undead and metal dogs, Monster Summon 1 might be your best bet. Not only does the Dog get aggro, but you can get a flanking bonus to hit when fighting the same mob that it is fighting. Add in a song, and perhaps a Masterwork weapon and you have gone from +0 to hit (assuming your 10 Str) to +4 to hit. Against things with stuff like AC10, youv'e gone from hitting 50&#37; of the time to 70% of the time. A huge difference. Do not run around while attacking, the -4 to hit will kill your chances at low levels. I think my capped Bard STILL has MSI available and often uses it while soloing.

Collect Mushrooms et al. Turn them it. When first starting if you do the complete quest out on the island, you can if you break everything and loot the chests along the way pick up a handful of starter potions. After you rescue the dogs for Scrag run back and break all the boxes and pick up free potions. Pick more mushrooms too.


A key point is that a Bard is NOT a fighter with songs, and should look to use things available to them to their advantage, like the example that Mercules supplied.

[Zenako]

I could agree with that, or turning it into the lowest adventure zone with Rares and locations.

Bards are good solid solo characters. They lack against constructs and undead, but otherwise can handle most foes on their own. I remember my Bard getting locked into a room with numerous angry gargoyles when I first started playing. I was able to CC them and pick them off one at a time while my friends all watched hopelessly outside the gates. I was a couple levels below the quest, but the CC combined with self healing and ok melee ability allowed me to finish them all off.

Ah fun in Troglodytes Get out on Three Barrel Cove.... You my little greedy bard must have opened the chest before your friends were in the room Good thing Gargoyles love music...

[Missing_Minds]

OP, first, I see nothing wrong with your build. I'd call it quite solid with some maxing on the CHA side. (it is what I'd do.)

You have a str of 10. So no negatives less you are moving around. Frankly, ranged combat with a 0 BAB is all out of wacked till you get 1 BAB. So I'd not count on ranged less you can do it safely. A high dice damage weapon that you are proficient in is going to be your best bet. (is that short sword, long sword? I forget).

Hypo is a great spell.... but when soloing stuff, do yourself a favor and take cure light first.

You should be able to use a light shield also. I would at this stage in the game. Also use your songs to buff yourself. (no brainer as I'm certain you are.) Don't worry about trying to fascinate a whole lot just yet as the mobs will smack you about before you can do much the way that current dungeons are rigged. (such as scrolls with rogues just behind the door.)

There are two routes to take in millers. Go the trap route, then hop up the crates as a previous poster said and range. Mind you, I think that dog can/will jump up to get to you.

[HumanJHawkins]

Thanks all... Several really good suggestions. I do stand corrected on at least part of my OP.

The quests could be tweaked a bit to help... For example, how a diplomacy check when you talk to the miller... If you succeed, he gets his dog and leaves.

Anyway, I will try the suggestions and see what happens. I have played every other class in the game and not found the least challenge in the solo quests... Well... Small challenge for Wizard. But not much. I guess I was just shocked to find myself dieing in what I had always perceived to be fake-training-bunny-slope quests. Blech.

[woofy]

I'll keep these short in hopes they will actually be read. PM me for more info if needed.

1) Bards are so nerfed at low level, even the newbie solo quests are almost impossible to live through. Just try it and the reasons will be obvious... Send 5 QA guys through Berregan Enge's solo with a 1st level Bard, and tell me how many live through it. (My guess: 0)

2) Kobold island: I was 70 XP from 2nd level, so I thought I would do Kobold island to level. After 35 minutes running all over creation trying to find the things, and using all of my starter potions to stay alive, I finally kill the 20th kobold to get 30 XP and NOT level. 30 XP? You have got to be kidding me!

depending on what build you have, my bard easily zergs through the harbor and outkills all the other classes

[Dariun]

For an untwinked low strength bard who wants to solo the low level stuff, I would definitely suggest CLW as the first spell and Summon Monster as the second. I would take Summon Monster over Hypno cause it works on everything .

Level 1 will be tough (but not as tough as for a low STR untwinked rogue!).

P.S. I just went through the harbor mostly solo with a twinked high STR bard, and even that had its challenges.

[EinarMal]

All caster characters are harder at low levels to solo with. If you build a max charisma low strength casting Bard it will be tough to solo as you have no DPS to get through quests where you have to kill things.

Solution make a melee focused Bard and kill everything....problem solved. Seriously I solo every melee Bard I build to level 3-4 with no problem at all. If you start with 16 stength and focus on melee you will wreck through quests at low levels. Bards are very versatile, if you go for casting you will not be a good solo build, if you go for melee you will.

[Arianrhod]

One more note for the untwinked bard in Miller's Debt - if you've done it enough times on other characters, you probably know exactly where & when each dog will spawn, and can make sure to fight them one at a time, that helps a bit with avoiding being hit as much. Definitely use a shield if you have one (or can get one) - you won't be casting hypno in here anyway, and shield-block whenever you get greased, it will cut down on the damage you take. And, of course, save any consumables you pick up along the way, rather than selling everything you don't have an immediate use for - you never know when that scroll of chill touch or shield will be just the thing you need (granted you have to make a UMD check, but it's worth a shot)

[EinarMal]

A key point is that a Bard is NOT a fighter with songs, and should look to use things available to them to their advantage, like the example that Mercules supplied.

Yes they certainly can be. A well built battle Bard can out DPS and outlast many fighter builds. Battle Bards rock....