Brilliant Turbine! (Compliment, not sarcasm)

[Strakeln]

heck, ottos sphere would do it...

Yeah, I thought about that and other AoE spells, but MT (smartly) constrained his argument quite a bit... persistent, AoE, damage... meaning wall of fire and acid fog (only?). The sphere doesn't do damage.

Correct me if this assumption is wrong, MT. My argument changes a lot if it is.

[MysticTheurge]

The "difficulty" of filling the room with firewalls does not relate to whether or not layered walls will both apply damage.

Except that when you can stack them and deal more damage there's a reason to stack them. When you remove that reason it's easier (as in, of the two choices it makes more sense) to fill the room with them.

[MysticTheurge]

Yeah, I thought about that and other AoE spells, but MT (smartly) constrained his argument quite a bit... persistent, AoE, damage... meaning wall of fire and acid fog (only?). The sphere doesn't do damage.

Correct me if this assumption is wrong, MT. My argument changes a lot if it is.

You could limit it like that. Damage it's what's really the problem. Kiting through an Otto's isn't.

So, acid fog, blade barrier, wall of fire, these would do damage to everyone.

Solid fog, web, otto's, these would only effect enemies.

It wasn't my original intention, but I like it.

[Shaamis]

What if persistent AoE spells dealt damage to people regardless of who cast them?

Not only would it (help) solve this problem, it'd solve the "What do you mean, it's not ours?!" problem.

QFT.

Be happy the firewalls don't do 1000+ damage to us, like the firewalls in PnP (if that powerful)

I remember no wanting to even jump through a firewall, let alone dance around fighting while standing in one.

[Strakeln]

Except that when you can stack them and deal more damage there's a reason to stack them. When you remove that reason it's easier (as in, of the two choices it makes more sense) to fill the room with them.

I think I understand why we are having communication gaps here.

I intepreted Dane's post regarding the 82 firewalls as "it's ridiculous that you can fill a room with fire and not get burned".

It appears that you translated it as "it's ridiculous that you could fill the room with fire".

Two very different arguments, but look at what Dane said:

Where would you find a place to stand with 82 fire walls.

This struck me as an odd question, since the obvious answer is "in the middle of the 82 firewalls". But then he went on to say:

And you can stand in them too, without burning.

So Dane appears to be saying that it's ridiculous to be able to cast 82 firewalls, since you'd never be able to do so while maintaining a safe spot for you to stand. Then he adds that he also considers it ridiculous that you can stand in a wall of fire. It sure doesn't appear to me that he's saying it's ridiculous to have the ability to cast the spell multiple times, just that it's ridiculous to be able to do so without killing yourself.

But perhaps I'm the one who misunderstood. Dane, clarify, please?

[Azoralq]

Oh, and so there is only one way to play this game?

EVERY QUEST must be the same, where tanks spend an hour beating on every mob, and clerics spam heal scrolls all over the place while casters haste and resist and stand around?

Would that make it a better game, to have EVERY SINGLE QUEST be identically run?

How about a little leeway for ingenuity and using your toons abilities to succeed?

IMO, every quest is like a puzzle. You have to figure it out to get the prize. But instead of being rewarded for figuring out an elegant resolution to the puzzle, we get punished for not "doing it the way the developers wanted".

When we are only allowed to solve a puzzle the way the puzzle developers envisioned, we are reduced from humans and problem solvers to "rats in a maze". If the rat climbs over the wall, the scientists build taller walls. If the rats chews through, the scientists use metal walls. This is what we face here.

So hey, developers, how about, if we "climb over the walls" or "gnaw through the walls", you just accept that we solved the problem in an ingenious way, and move to creating a better puzzle for the next time.

Think of it as a battle of wits, rather than a lab experiment gone wrong.

What?

I'm sorry dude, I didn't really know putting down a billion firewalls in one room, having someone be bait, and fish out enemies is a 'puzzle solution.' In fact, it really isn't anything at all, except maybe a solution to finish the quest fast enough so you aren't late for work in the next 15 minutes. Seriously, if this is a puzzle solution, then there are a **** ton of quests out there *** the same puzzle design.

1)
Newbie: 'Oh no! We have to fight a Marut at the end of VoN 3, what ever will we do?
Veteran: 'Shut up, newb. The caster put down as many firewalls as they can on the door, and you watch him burn.'

2)
Newbie: 'Oh no! We have a **** ton of undead to fight at the first part of Xorian Cipher, not to mention a huge room with a few chaos balls! What ever will we do?'
Veteran: 'Shut up, newb. Just run past everything, and when you get to stop of the first tier of stairs, turn around and have mages cast as many firewalls as they can until they die.'

3)
Newbie: 'Oh no! We have a million mephits out there om part 6 of Co6, as well as a few high prieces. What ever will we do?'
Veteran: 'Sut up, newb. Just have a guy run out there, aggro it all, then run back here. Mages set up as many firewalls as you can, until they die.'

4)
Newbie: 'Oh no! We have to kill 6 Vampire Priests, but there is a **** ton of stuff in there as well, what ever will we do?'
Veteran: 'Shut up, newb. Just have one guy run out there, aggro it all, then run back here. Mages set up as many firewalls as you can, until they die.'

Edit: I can't believe I forgot this one:
4.5)
Newbie: 'Oh no! We have to descent into the freezing abyss, full of undead and incorperal beings on each level, and survive, not to mention 2 mean looking named bosses that have to die at close to the same time, whatever will we do?'
Veteran: 'Shut up, newb. Just run all the way down to the bottom of a first level, have a caster cast as many firewalls as he can until they all die, then proceed to next level and do the same thing.

For the named, have one caster and a healer stay up here, and firewall him. The rest run down to the bottom to the other named, ignoring everying on the way. Once to the named, cast firewall on him, and watch him, and everything else burn.'

5)
Newbie: 'Oh no, there is a lot of flesh golems in this next...oh my god..I give up'
Veteran: 'yer finally learning, son.'

Nice Puzzle solution dude. Very unique, very impressive. Because, as you said, all quests are not the same.

[MysticTheurge]

1)
Newbie: 'Oh no! We have to fight a Marut at the end of VoN 3, what ever will we do?
Veteran: 'Shut up, newb. The caster put down as many firewalls as they can on the door, and you watch him burn.'

2)
Newbie: 'Oh no! We have a **** ton of undead to fight at the first part of Xorian Cipher, not to mention a huge room with a few chaos balls! What ever will we do?'
Veteran: 'Shut up, newb. Just run past everything, and when you get to stop of the first tier of stairs, turn around and have mages cast as many firewalls as they can until they die.'

3)
Newbie: 'Oh no! We have a million mephits out there om part 6 of Co6, as well as a few high prieces. What ever will we do?'
Veteran: 'Sut up, newb. Just have a guy run out there, aggro it all, then run back here. Mages set up as many firewalls as you can, until they die.'

4)
Newbie: 'Oh no! We have to kill 6 Vampire Priests, but there is a **** ton of stuff in there as well, what ever will we do?'
Veteran: 'Shut up, newb. Just have one guy run out there, aggro it all, then run back here. Mages set up as many firewalls as you can, until they die.'

5)
Newbie: 'Oh no, there is a lot of flesh golems in this next...oh my god..I give up'
Veteran: 'yer, finally learning, son.'

This made me chuckle.

[Mad_Bombardier]

I can currently fill the room with walls of fire. I can currently put 4-5 firewalls in one single spot. If they took away the ability for layered firewalls to all apply damage, I could still fill the room with walls of fire, and I could put 4-5 walls in the same spot.

The "difficulty" of filling the room with firewalls does not relate to whether or not layered walls will both apply damage.

Yes, you could fill the room, but mobs would only take 1 hit of damage per wall, and it would require kiting mobs through (or keep them in 1 spot using 1 WoF to save mana). As it is now, you can literally lay 5 WoF on top of each other, form a shield wall and watch as the baddie takes 5 doses of damage from standing in a single spot. I think it's poor implementation.

I didn't like the stacking change when it happened and I still don't. As you said previously,

fire+fire != superfire. fire+fire = fire. It makes sense that two overlapping firewalls wouldn't both do damage.

[MysticTheurge]

You know what else would make a difference. Implementing it according to the D&D rules.

..|==--
..|==--
..|==--
..|==--
..|==--
..|==--

Crossing the plane of the wall deals 2d6+caster level damage. Standing 10 or fewer feet away on one side deals 2d4 damage. Standing 10-20 feet away on the same side deals 1d4 damage.

The only way to get really good damage would be to kite (like blade barrier) rather than stand and fight in it. Still handy, but less so.

[Aesop]

1Firewall per AoE. No overlapping them. ya can throw several up but only one damage source (the highest) takes effect in a given round.

so if you say have 2 Firewalls in a X pattern only the highest damage affects the mobs within. If you instead have a pattern like this |i i| (the "i"s are little people representing a distance between the walls) and run mobs through the both of them separately then they could both be effective.

so to recap


X one sourse of damage because they are passing through the same AoE

|i i| each wall can damage baduns if they run through


Aesop

ps Cold Damage to walls of fire should put them out (20pts or more )

[Drider]

You know what else would make a difference. Implementing it according to the D&D rules.

..|==--
..|==--
..|==--
..|==--
..|==--
..|==--

Crossing the plane of the wall deals 2d6+caster level damage. Standing 10 or fewer feet away on one side deals 2d4 damage. Standing 10-20 feet away on the same side deals 1d4 damage.

The only way to get really good damage would be to kite (like blade barrier) rather than stand and fight in it. Still handy, but less so.

Agreed and limit how it's damage can be modified.

[Lizardgrad89]

What?

I'm sorry dude, I didn't really know putting down a billion firewalls in one room, having someone be bait, and fish out enemies is a 'puzzle solution.' In fact, it really isn't anything at all, except maybe a solution to finish the quest fast enough so you aren't late for work in the next 15 minutes. Seriously, if this is a puzzle solution, then there are a **** ton of quests out there *** the same puzzle design.

1)
Newbie: 'Oh no! We have to fight a Marut at the end of VoN 3, what ever will we do?
Veteran: 'Shut up, newb. The caster put down as many firewalls as they can on the door, and you watch him burn.'

2)
Newbie: 'Oh no! We have a **** ton of undead to fight at the first part of Xorian Cipher, not to mention a huge room with a few chaos balls! What ever will we do?'
Veteran: 'Shut up, newb. Just run past everything, and when you get to stop of the first tier of stairs, turn around and have mages cast as many firewalls as they can until they die.'

3)
Newbie: 'Oh no! We have a million mephits out there om part 6 of Co6, as well as a few high prieces. What ever will we do?'
Veteran: 'Sut up, newb. Just have a guy run out there, aggro it all, then run back here. Mages set up as many firewalls as you can, until they die.'

4)
Newbie: 'Oh no! We have to kill 6 Vampire Priests, but there is a **** ton of stuff in there as well, what ever will we do?'
Veteran: 'Shut up, newb. Just have one guy run out there, aggro it all, then run back here. Mages set up as many firewalls as you can, until they die.'

Edit: I can't believe I forgot this one:
4.5)
Newbie: 'Oh no! We have to descent into the freezing abyss, full of undead and incorperal beings on each level, and survive, not to mention 2 mean looking named bosses that have to die at close to the same time, whatever will we do?'
Veteran: 'Shut up, newb. Just run all the way down to the bottom of a first level, have a caster cast as many firewalls as he can until they all die, then proceed to next level and do the same thing.

For the named, have one caster and a healer stay up here, and firewall him. The rest run down to the bottom to the other named, ignoring everying on the way. Once to the named, cast firewall on him, and watch him, and everything else burn.'

5)
Newbie: 'Oh no, there is a lot of flesh golems in this next...oh my god..I give up'
Veteran: 'yer finally learning, son.'

Nice Puzzle solution dude. Very unique, very impressive. Because, as you said, all quests are not the same.

You know, if Vol were the ONLY quest where this was at issue, you would have a point.

But it isn't, so you don't.

What about POP?

Players came up with a way to defeat the doors. Devs changed it. They came up with a new way. Devs changed it. They came up with yet ANOTHER WAY, devs changed it. Now, you have to melee fight everything, because all the elegant solutions have been compromised.

And the WF at the end? Same thing. At least 3 different strategies-effective ones-destroyed by devs because they just HAD TO HAVE melee fighting.

Von 6 - changed how many times? Why? Because people figured out a way to beat it without meleeing everything.

Do I have to list more? I think you get my point.

WHY DOES EVERYTHING HAVE TO BE ABOUT MELEE? Can't we have quests where you are allowed to do things differently? The FUN in this game is SOLVING THE PROBLEMS CREATIVELY. That is constantly being taken from us.

Don't have tunnel vision about my post. There is a bigger picture here.

[MysticTheurge]

Now, you have to melee fight everything, because all the elegant solutions have been compromised.

Are you serious? I throw down a maximized, quickened blade barrier as the room starts to go off and that takes care of most stuff.

Either that or I Destruct half the things in the room.

[Deragoth]

So are the shadows undead or not?

As for the fire immunity... Don't get me wrong, the firewall thing was cheese , but total immunity? That's the worst kind of cheese... DMburger cheese.

Please find a better way. Otherwise, I'll just Chill-Touch them all and leave them a-scared while I bang out the rest of the quest in 5 minutes.

Regards,

Paying customer actively recruiting new DDO blood.

[moorewr]

Sounds like clerics will have fun dropping divine light and cure mass spells on the shadows while the arcanes torch everything else... and the meatshields can get some use for their ghost-touch weapons.

So what, big deal.

[MysticTheurge]

Sounds like clerics will have fun dropping divine light and cure mass spells on the shadows

And blade barriers.

[Azoralq]

You know, if Vol were the ONLY quest where this was at issue, you would have a point.

But it isn't, so you don't.

What about POP?

Players came up with a way to defeat the doors. Devs changed it. They came up with a new way. Devs changed it. They came up with yet ANOTHER WAY, devs changed it. Now, you have to melee fight everything, because all the elegant solutions have been compromised.

And the WF at the end? Same thing. At least 3 different strategies-effective ones-destroyed by devs because they just HAD TO HAVE melee fighting.

Von 6 - changed how many times? Why? Because people figured out a way to beat it without meleeing everything.

Do I have to list more? I think you get my point.

WHY DOES EVERYTHING HAVE TO BE ABOUT MELEE? Can't we have quests where you are allowed to do things differently? The FUN in this game is SOLVING THE PROBLEMS CREATIVELY. That is constantly being taken from us.

Don't have tunnel vision about my post. There is a bigger picture here.

What?

You really want me to go on with other things? I kind of thought I beat it into the ground with those first six posts. By the way, that one about Von 3..yea, that is done still. You don't fight the earth elementals, you just burn the marut the moment he comes out.

PoP? Like the guy said, you don't fight there, either. So it isn't melee centered at all. A firewall after the room started, everything dead. A blade barrier, everything dead.

I'm just pointing out that your 'brilliant puzzle solution' isn't really brilliant at all, it done everywhere, in every quest. I've seen casters cast firewall on fire basec creatures (I kid you not) because they are so used to hitting that macroed button, and watch everything die.

Nerf the **** out of Firewall. Well, I shouldn't say it that strongly...just nerf it enough so it isn't the only spell in the game (besides instant kill spells, nothing will ever beat those.)

I'll say it again..you aren't solving anything creatively. You are putting down a firewall, and burning everything in sight.

For PoP before fix: You are putting down cloudkill through a wall of force A wall which even Ethereal creatures can't even pass, let alone gas, and killing things inside. That's not creative, that exploiting something that's not possible in any terms. I didn't know Tear gas floats through a solid brick wall in real life.

[Dane_McArdy]

I think I understand why we are having communication gaps here.

I intepreted Dane's post regarding the 82 firewalls as "it's ridiculous that you can fill a room with fire and not get burned".

It appears that you translated it as "it's ridiculous that you could fill the room with fire".

Two very different arguments, but look at what Dane said:
This struck me as an odd question, since the obvious answer is "in the middle of the 82 firewalls". But then he went on to say:

So Dane appears to be saying that it's ridiculous to be able to cast 82 firewalls, since you'd never be able to do so while maintaining a safe spot for you to stand. Then he adds that he also considers it ridiculous that you can stand in a wall of fire. It sure doesn't appear to me that he's saying it's ridiculous to have the ability to cast the spell multiple times, just that it's ridiculous to be able to do so without killing yourself.

But perhaps I'm the one who misunderstood. Dane, clarify, please?

Saying, have the mobs not stand in the fire isn't the solution when you can make it so that there isn't any place without fire. Sure, smarter AI would be great. So then what? Mobs now won't enter fire wall. Then what happens?

We put fire wall up so the mobs can't get to us and peg them off at a distance? Not much different. Sure it's more tactical in thought I guess. But not much difference, really, it's basically making encounters safe to the point of no ris.

The issue here is that we can make so much of the content trivial with our powers, that no risk is really involved. The game has to have a level of risk to remain interesting.

[Furgulder]

why didn't you just spawn blackbones in there instead of magically fire immune shadows? geez...

I think this would have been a pretty good fix actually.

[MysticTheurge]

I think this would have been a pretty good fix actually.

Or just rename the shadows to ... Blackbone Shadows.

Or, more seriously, Cindershades (as was suggested elsewhere).