Blade Barrier

[MrWizard]

just leveling my first real cleric, splash of rogue
can't cast the spell, but my blade barrier scrolls do good....but.....

no one fights or runs them into it, so I waste the scroll....

[Mad_Bombardier]

Well that's why it's called a bell curve

I meant, "loves the middle to the exclusion of the extremes." But, touché.

[Impaqt]

SORRY TO RANT

Dead Mr FTR/PALY/RNGR/Zerging Caster,

Yes, the LFM said that you were welcome to join, I was being nice to let you get free favor. No, I didn't really need your help, I had already solo'd 80% of the quest. How did I do it being a utility cleric (non-battle)? Extended BB and haste potions. With doing ~300 per full pass, the mobs didn't really stand a chance. Please, please, please just follow and listen to the cleric ... I really did make it this far without your help.

Your screams of "buff me, heal me and help me" are sucking up my mana, which I could be using to complete the quest instead of keeping you alive. "Please stay here", does not mean that I want you to take the aggro off me when you see me run around in circles. "Please hold this door for the Wall of Fire, I'll draw some aggro" to you does not mean move forward and hit/cast on anything that moves. I really am comfortable playing (both of) my lvl 14 clerics; I even got five of those levels without your help. I don;t care about kill counts, I just want to win and take my reward.

If you want to Solo... Then Solo..... Inviting people into your group, and then complaining that they want to participate is kinda silly.

[Strakeln]

If you want to Solo... Then Solo..... Inviting people into your group, and then complaining that they want to participate is kinda silly.

I think he wants them to contribute instead of simply participate. If your participation makes the quest harder/longer/more resource intensive, then you're not contributing.

[Impaqt]

I think he wants them to contribute instead of simply participate. If your participation makes the quest harder/longer/more resource intensive, then you're not contributing.

If you have ever soloed a Quest with blade barrier, you'd realize that having extra DPS is never a good thing. ANything they do can disrupt the Clerics DPS...... Its really not worth it....

Which is why when I want to solo a QUest like Trial By Fire, Vol, or even make an orchard run solo.. I go Solo... Its Always Faster and with fewer deaths.

[redoubt]

If you have ever soloed a Quest with blade barrier, you'd realize that having extra DPS is never a good thing. ANything they do can disrupt the Clerics DPS...... Its really not worth it....

Which is why when I want to solo a QUest like Trial By Fire, Vol, or even make an orchard run solo.. I go Solo... Its Always Faster and with fewer deaths.

Sounds like, to me anyway, that while BB is a great damage spell, it has to be used a certain way. Kind of the reverse of back when the cleric was told to stay back toward the shrine while the rest killed the beholders in Von3.

You see the same kind of lack of tactic in other situations. For example, why do melees fight a melee mob 10 feet in front of a dancing ball? It seems that most have learned to fight inside a firewall to benifit from both the fire and melee damage. So maybe its an education process. So...

How do other classes fight in a BB?
-ranged classes can do ranged things and not pull the agro off. So that is one option.
-casters can put CK, fire etc in the same spot as the BB.
-melee??? drag the mobs through the barrier once. After that most will aggro on the cleric. What then? Its back to chase the mob while swinging and missing. Same thing everyone yells at rangers and casters for doing, i.e. getting a crapton of agro and running around. Or are melees supposed to stay behind the cleric on this one? If so, do we really want to train all the melees to stop protecting the clerics from now on?

[Impaqt]

Sounds like, to me anyway, that while BB is a great damage spell, it has to be used a certain way. Kind of the reverse of back when the cleric was told to stay back toward the shrine while the rest killed the beholders in Von3.

You see the same kind of lack of tactic in other situations. For example, why do melees fight a melee mob 10 feet in front of a dancing ball? It seems that most have learned to fight inside a firewall to benifit from both the fire and melee damage. So maybe its an education process. So...

How do other classes fight in a BB?
-ranged classes can do ranged things and not pull the agro off. So that is one option.
THis is Fine.... It amkes the Ranged character feel usefull... there isnt a Ranger int he game that can pull aggro from one of My Maximized, Empowered, SUperior Potency'd Blade Barriers.
-casters can put CK, fire etc in the same spot as the BB.
Caster should stick to Instadeath spells.. PK, Finger.. Thats it....

-melee??? drag the mobs through the barrier once. After that most will aggro on the cleric. What then?

Nope, Meeles need to stay the hel out of my way when I'm blade barriering... Its unlikely that they will grab the aggro once a mob hits the blade... THen they will just end up Chasing the mobs around....

Its back to chase the mob while swinging and missing. Same thing everyone yells at rangers and casters for doing, i.e. getting a crapton of agro and running around. Or are melees supposed to stay behind the cleric on this one? If so, do we really want to train all the melees to stop protecting the clerics from now on?

Blade barriering a quest is a Science..... You cant just stand in the middle with SOneskin and Displacement Slamming down Cure pots.... You must kite the mobs through them.... Trial by fire is one of my favorites to Solo... But add others to the mix and I dont get to do much... SOmeone taking aggro from one of those Trolls that regenerate and its over....

I can solo it faster than having a Bunch of melees around me.... and I do.

[Strakeln]

If you have ever soloed a Quest with blade barrier, you'd realize that having extra DPS is never a good thing. ANything they do can disrupt the Clerics DPS...... Its really not worth it....

Who said anything about extra DPS? I said contribution, which can mean a lot more than DPS. Haste, Displacement, debuffing (crippling, curse, exhaustion, fatigue, limb chopping, destruction, slowburst, etc.). CK, solid fog, crowd control, stat damaging. All methods of contribution that can avoid stealing agro.

[Impaqt]

Who said anything about extra DPS? I said contribution, which can mean a lot more than DPS. Haste, Displacement, debuffing (crippling, curse, exhaustion, fatigue, limb chopping, destruction, slowburst, etc.). CK, solid fog, crowd control, stat damaging. All methods of contribution that can avoid stealing agro.

SOme of those are OK, SOme are TERRIBLE... Green = OK, Red=Ugh.....

This is WHY I'd rather Solo a quest I can clear withBlade Barrier.....

CK Pretty much draws Instand Aggo now on Casters.. How much damage I do to them is moot.

Why would I ever be grateful someone is Slowing down the Mobs I'm Kiting through my Blade Barier? The Slower they are, the more time its going to take for me to kill them.

Sometimes I think Blade Barier is less understood than Fasinate... noting bothers me more than runnign bam and after I get up a couple blade barriers the Wizard starts throwing up Solid Fogs.....

[Strakeln]

SOme of those are OK, SOme are TERRIBLE... Green = OK, Red=Ugh.....

This is WHY I'd rather Solo a quest I can clear withBlade Barrier.....

CK Pretty much draws Instand Aggo now on Casters.. How much damage I do to them is moot.

Why would I ever be grateful someone is Slowing down the Mobs I'm Kiting through my Blade Barier? The Slower they are, the more time its going to take for me to kill them.

Sometimes I think Blade Barier is less understood than Fasinate... noting bothers me more than runnign bam and after I get up a couple blade barriers the Wizard starts throwing up Solid Fogs.....

Pfft. Not everything applies equally to every situation, you know this. Of course you don't want slowburst or crippling on your average mob that you're trying to run around in the blade barrier... but there are some reasonable uses for it - a lot of giants can move much faster than you can, applying a slow effect brings them back down to your speed. The end result is less damage to you while still killing in the same amount of time.

Furthermore, there are many more options available besides slowing effects. I listed examples, not the be-all-end-all list. Touch of idiocy, bless debuff portion (or was that prayer?), crushing despair, symbol of pain, fear, break enchantment... get the idea? The point, which I think should be overwhelmingly clear by now, is that there are a lot of things other party members can do to contribute (notice I also mentioned things besides debuffs like haste, displacement, stoneskin) that won't take agro away from the BB-casting cleric.

Your (apparent) problem here is the people you run with, not the options available to them.

Personally, I love that stupid skeleton with all the swords in the pre-raid. I go in with my cleric and tell everyone to stay out of the way and to not draw agro. If they refuse to listen, I refuse to heal. Sorry bro, not gonna burn 5 mass restore scrolls on you because you refused to let my BB do its thing... instead I will wait until you con-damage yourself to death, then I will rez you after my BB has done its job.

[Ekental]

Control: Firewall
Avg Dmg: [3.5(1d6)*2+14]*1.4(enhancements)*1.5(sup potency)*3(max+empower) = 95.2
Critical Dmg Addendum: 18/100*2.75*95.2=47.124
Total Avg Dmg: 142.324

Blade Barrier:
Avg Dmg: 3.5(1d6)*14*1.5(sup potency)*3(max+emp)=220.5
Critical Dmg Addendum:
9/100*1.25*220.5=24.80625
Total Avg Dmg: 245.30625

I'm aware firewall does 2x dmg to undead and blade barrier requires a lot of arm waving to cast, as well as has a saving throw.

Yes, max & empower is x3 dmg, not 2.5.

[Impaqt]

Control: Firewall
Avg Dmg: [3.5(1d6)*2+14]*1.4(enhancements)*1.5(sup potency)*3(max+empower) = 95.2
Critical Dmg Addendum: 18/100*2.75*95.2=47.124
Total Avg Dmg: 142.324

Blade Barrier:
Avg Dmg: 3.5(1d6)*14*1.5(sup potency)*3(max+emp)=220.5
Critical Dmg Addendum:
9/100*1.25*220.5=24.80625
Total Avg Dmg: 245.30625

I'm aware firewall does 2x dmg to undead and blade barrier requires a lot of arm waving to cast, as well as has a saving throw.

Yes, max & empower is x3 dmg, not 2.5.

Not sure what your trying to do with these numbers......

No one has ever questioned firewalls effectiveness in this thread (Well, except for the fact that I can still Solo VOL..... )

Take your firewall Numbers and consider that the Caster can get the agro and standinthe wall with SS and Displacement on for continuous damage... A Cleric using BB must kite the mobs back and forth...

They are both Highly effective.... Just NOT at the same time.

Back to the Debuffing/Morale support comments...

I run with Exceptional Guildies... But asking them to stick around me for morale support is rather boring for them... and I'm strictly commenting on the Rant by Likuie...... here.... If you dont expect "help" in one form or another, do not group the quest.. Just Solo it....

[Mad_Bombardier]

Yes, max & empower is x3 dmg, not 2.5.

Nope. Already cleared that up in the other thread.

And your calculations are incorrect. Enhancements are added with Potency and then multiplied by base. Your averages are also incorrect. You multiplied crit damage by crit percent, but did not multiply normal damage by normal percent.

[binnsr]

The only thing worse than melees in a blade barrier trap is a well meaning caster dropping a fog (of any kind) or even worse, one of those **** party balls. Makes me want to reach through the screen and punch someone every time I see a dancing orb go up in front of my max/emp/ext blade barrier..
Now, I typically run with guildies, so it's not so much of a problem usually .. but fill out with 1 outsider and I'm frothing like a barbarian before the quest is half over!

Back to the topic at hand, I do 400 damage per pass-through on my maximized/quickened blade barriers (same as adamkatt - 250 if I add empower). One of our casters will generally lay a firewall lengthwise through the BB and then he and I run back and forth through the trap together. Very effective in nearly all of the orchard quests (and the orchard itself) usually the firewall is the difference between 1 pass and needing to do half of a second.

[Ekental]

Nope. Already cleared that up in the other thread.

And your calculations are incorrect. Enhancements are added with Potency and then multiplied by base. Your averages are also incorrect. You multiplied crit damage by crit percent, but did not multiply normal damage by normal percent.

Fireball -
Avg Dmg: 3.5(1d6)*10*[1.4(enhancements)+1.5(sup potency)+2.5(max+empower)] = 189

Like that?
If so, hop around and do some empirical testing. Tossing 300 fireballs rarely gave me numbers below 200. I'll go make a log in a couple of days.

Fireball -
Avg Dmg: 3.5(1d6)*10*[1.4(enhancements)+1.5(sup potency)+3(max+empower)] = 206.5

That would be x3 for the metamagics, and this becomes a bit more difficult to test.

Fireball -
Avg Dmg: 3.5(1d6)*10*[1.4(enhancements)+1.5(sup potency)]*2.5(max+empower) = 253.75

Or that perhaps?

How did you originally come to the conclusion for metamagics? I seem to recall someone (perhaps you) making a post months ago talking about some empirical testing and both metamagics netting a x2.5.

Finally, I didn't quite understand it when you said "multiply normal dmg by normal percent", would you mind clarifying?

@Impaqt: They're some quick references, that's all. I'm aware they're not the same, I might have said that somewhere in the previous post as well. They're simply the two most common persistent AoE dmg spells used by arcane & divine casters.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Fireball -
Avg Dmg: 3.5(1d6)*10*[1.4(enhancements)+1.5(sup potency)]*2.5(max+empower) = 253.75

Or that perhaps?

How did you originally come to the conclusion for metamagics? I seem to recall someone (perhaps you) making a post months ago talking about some empirical testing and both metamagics netting a x2.5.

Finally, I didn't quite understand it when you said "multiply normal dmg by normal percent", would you mind clarifying?

It's closest to that one. But, you have a few errors. Allow me to clarify.

Damage * [1(base)+.4 (enhancement) +.5(SupPot)] * [1(base)+.5(Empower) +1(Maximize)] * [1.5(base) +.75(enhancement) +.5(SupLore)]
Damage * 1.9 * 2.5 * 2.75 = x13.0625 Damage

And yes it was probably me talking about spell damage. The change is less recent than I implied. We have gone through a few metamagic changes this year. The first (in 4.1?) went from multiplicative damage and multiplicative cost to additive damage and additive cost (each multiplied by the base, but cost increases added together). The second in Mod5 stayed with additive damage and went to flat +SP cost from the old percent system. The evolution of metamagic output compared to cost is:

Base x1.5 x2 = x3 damage for Base x2 x3 = x6 cost.
Base +.5 +1 = x2.5 damage for Base +100% +200% = x4 cost.
Base +.5 +1 = x2.5 damage for Base +15SP +25SP = Base +40 SP cost.

For average damage. If a spell normally hits for 100 damage 90% of the time and 250 damage 10% of the time, you need to multiply each by the percent occurance to see the average damage. 100 * .9 + 250 * .1 = 115 average damage. In your example, you added normal 100 + crit*% 25 = 125, which was inflated.

It is also worth noting that spells in DDO do not use PnP damage dice, but rather use inflated/modified dice. Magic Missle 1d4+1 becomes 1d2+3. You will only ever see base results of 4 or 5. d6 spells such as Fireball and Blade Barrier use 1d3+3 instead of 1d6. So, you're averages were a bit off. The average of 1d3+3 is 5, whereas the average of 1d6 is 3.5.

And all of this is from testing in game. Each time the metamagic system has changed, I have tested on Risia to figure out how it all adds up. It's pretty easy to flush your enhancements, strip nekked and start casting and recording results. Then add an enhancement, cast more. Add an item, cast more. Add metamagics with and without static boosts, cast more. Add spell crits enhancements, cast more. Add Lore item, cast more.

[Purgatory]

Sounds like, to me anyway, that while BB is a great damage spell, it has to be used a certain way. Kind of the reverse of back when the cleric was told to stay back toward the shrine while the rest killed the beholders in Von3.

hehe now the cleric tells the party to stay back by the shrine so he can destruct them at a safe distance.

[adamkatt]

SORRY TO RANT

Dead Mr FTR/PALY/RNGR/Zerging Caster,

Yes, the LFM said that you were welcome to join, I was being nice to let you get free favor. No, I didn't really need your help, I had already solo'd 80% of the quest. How did I do it being a utility cleric (non-battle)? Extended BB and haste potions. With doing ~300 per full pass, the mobs didn't really stand a chance. Please, please, please just follow and listen to the cleric ... I really did make it this far without your help.

Your screams of "buff me, heal me and help me" are sucking up my mana, which I could be using to complete the quest instead of keeping you alive. "Please stay here", does not mean that I want you to take the aggro off me when you see me run around in circles. "Please hold this door for the Wall of Fire, I'll draw some aggro" to you does not mean move forward and hit/cast on anything that moves. I really am comfortable playing (both of) my lvl 14 clerics; I even got five of those levels without your help. I don;t care about kill counts, I just want to win and take my reward.

nm not awake yet

[DoctorWhofan]

I do not have Maximse, empower or any metamagic feats (except extend) on my clerics.

So my BBs aren't uber. I'm ok. I don't wanna be the center of attention of the mobs, but I'm ok taking a a little of the heat off the casters, cuz I would have watch them die so fast, I couldn't dream of healing, then waste mana on raise/heal/rebuff only to have it happen again. ANd if it is happening to them, I certainly don't want it to happen to me. I attract enough attention being a cleric (especially in the Orchard) as it is.

Cuz If I die, I know that someone could raise me, probly, maybe...oh wait! It was the sorcerer, now has all the aggro with the damage that his max/empower/extended firewall. No tank even with light speed haste and super uberness could take off of the Sorcerer, and wait! He's dead next to me, lasting about 2.5 seconds. And so the party wipe/near wipe starts.

My BBs do about 70-90pts per hit. And that's ok by me. I'm not looking at the kill count. I'm here to heal.

[twix]

Whats a heal? BB ftw.