How hard could it be to code the Mystic Theurge prestige class?

[Cowdenicus]

As I see it, it really could not be that difficult, the spells are already in game, To make the class excel they would but need to only add in one feat. In my opinion it really could not be all that time consuming and it would send a great signal that Turbine is serious about adding at least some prestige classes.

Can anybody think of any issues that would preclude Turbine from adding this PrC into the game?

[Laith]

Can anybody think of any issues that would preclude Turbine from adding this PrC into the game?

the current class system probably doesn't support a system anywhere near similar to "+1 caster level to existing spellcaster class"

aside from that, once you implement one PrC, you better be dang well ready to add a bunch of others. if you don't, you've caused more harm than good.

[Cowdenicus]

the current class system probably doesn't support a system anywhere near similar to "+1 caster level to existing spellcaster class"

aside from that, once you implement one PrC, you better be dang well ready to add a bunch of others. if you don't, you've caused more harm than good.

How many PrC's would be acceptable in you opinion to roll out at once at the beginning? 4? 6? 2?

[MrCow]

I think in an old DDO interview that was done by TopTenHammer it was stated that if they were to release any prestige classes that they would try to have about 8 or so to start with. This was about a year ago and with a different person in charge, so I don't know how much validity this holds anymore.

Regardless, at minimum there should be at least one prestige class that affects each base class we currently have (and trying to mathmatically find the fewest prestige classes to fill this expectation is probably not a good idea to go about this ).

[Laith]

How many PrC's would be acceptable in you opinion to roll out at once at the beginning? 4? 6? 2?

i'd say minimum 6 ideally (one or two options for most characters if you pick them right), but that's a paid-expansion worthy endeavor.

Odds are, they'd have to release 1 "magical" PrC along with 1 "combat" PrC in a set, and say that they are working on another set for the next release.

PrCs would also probably require some sort of "re-leveling" system... or at least a skill respec if they implemented them in-line with PnP.

[Cowdenicus]

I persdonally dont see why they would need a releveling system for it, Turbine just gave everybody 2 free slots per server.

That being said, I think they could easily put out the following 5 PrC's quite easily: Mystic Theurge, Arcane Archer, Dwarven Defender, Duelist, and Dragon Disciple with little else needing to be programmed.

You could probably add Arcane Trickster, Archmage and Thaumaturgist to that also.

[Laith]

I persdonally dont see why they would need a releveling system for it, Turbine just gave everybody 2 free slots per server.

i think it would. honestly, most people have enough problems planning feats & enhancements with complicated prerequisites...

PrCs also require that you map out skills, class levels, and additional feats become prereqs.

If class levels cannot be undone, it becomes very easy to make irrepairable mistakes.

From a "learning curve" aspect, PrCs are quite far above the current slope... and many newbies will be attracted to them. If no re-leveling scheme is to be added, then at the very least DOCUMENTATION would become even more a concern than it is currently.

of course, i'm not really a fan of the "re-leveling" concept, but PrCs would certainly bring it up...

[ccheath776]

As I see it, it really could not be that difficult, the spells are already in game, To make the class excel they would but need to only add in one feat. In my opinion it really could not be all that time consuming and it would send a great signal that Turbine is serious about adding at least some prestige classes.

Can anybody think of any issues that would preclude Turbine from adding this PrC into the game?

its not coding that they are concerned about. Its balance.

Yu introduce one prestige class you have to introduce many more. Yu cant just have one.

The problem is many of the current prestige classes, due to the design of DDO, are overbalanced and would make the game too easy. Thats not a criticism of Turbine development or design.
I am saying within the parameters of DDO. Prestige classes would throw a huge wrench into the balance.

making things not be as playable as they should.

[Alavatar]

My guess is that they have a problem with the "Add +1 to existing caster level" stuff.

My bet is they have a predetermined number of spells a character can prepare based on the level of the class.

Example:
Set: Wizard 3
Define: 3 L1 wizard spells, 2 L2 wizard spell

Set: Wizard 4
Define: 4 L1 sorcerer spells, 3 L2 sorcerer spells

Therefore, there is a problem with Wizard 3+1. They probably would have to recode the how spellcasting is defined.

Disclaimer: This is just a guess from a person who is not educated in programing.

[Spectralist]

aside from that, once you implement one PrC, you better be dang well ready to add a bunch of others. if you don't, you've caused more harm than good.

Exactly, and we dont even have all the core classes. Plus prestige classes would likely put a lot of pressure on the devs to allow more then 3 classes on a character. I know almost all my NWN2 builds that use prestige classes have at least 4 classes.

[Laith]

My guess is that they have a problem with the "Add +1 to existing caster level" stuff.

yes, it does change some fundamentals, but really it's just another variable in a stack of variables.

there way i see it is:
1) you pick the class(es) the "+1 to existing caster level" applys to like a feat when selecting the PrC lvl1. The list of selections includes applicable selections of your current classes. whether or not this can be changed at a later time with shards is questionable, and may be complicated by #2.
2) each time your PrC would give you "+1 to existing caster level", you get a feat (say "Cleric: +1 caster level") that stacks, similar to how Trap Sense works (it says "Taken X Times).
3) when you cast a spell, load your spell list, or calculate your max SP: instead of looking at just your class level, it adds in these feats to calculate your caster level. Then, using this modified caster level determines your sp, spell slots, etc

not completely obscene, but definately an expansion on what is probably the current system of just looking at class levels.

This is one possible implementation.

[Shrazkil]

Would need at least 6 or so prestige classes to start.

Arcane Trickster
Dwarven Defender
Mystic theurge
Arcane Archer
Dragon Disciple
Sacred fist

Great all around start.

[Alavatar]

yes, it does change some fundamentals, but really it's just another variable in a stack of variables.

there way i see it is:
1) you pick the class(es) the "+1 to existing caster level" applys to like a feat when selecting the PrC lvl1. The list of selections includes applicable selections of your current classes. whether or not this can be changed at a later time with shards is questionable, and may be complicated by #2.
2) each time your PrC would give you "+1 to existing caster level", you get a feat (say "Cleric: +1 caster level") that stacks, similar to how Trap Sense works (it says "Taken X Times).
3) when you cast a spell, load your spell list, or calculate your max SP: instead of looking at just your class level, it adds in these feats as well.

not completely obscene, but definately an expansion on what is probably the current system of just looking at class levels.

This is one possible implementation.

It is difficult for a feat to give a specific amount of SP because SP gained by a specific class varies as the level increases. A sorcerer going from L10 to L11 gets more SP then if they were going from L4 to L5.

It would be easier to add +1 caster level to the effects of the spells, I agree, but it seems like the number of spells available for preperation is defined specifically by the class level. A level 8 sorcerer has X L1, Y L2, Z L3 and A L4 spells, not L8 sorcerer gets +1 L4 spell and +1 L2 spell. Since each class gets different spells at different levels I assume it would be difficult to create a feat that is smart enough to determine what spells you get if you added base class + mystic theurge class = base class spell list.

My guess is just that the spells available for preperation is hardcoded into the class dependant on level which makes adding spells from a secondary class difficult.

[Twerpp]

As I see it, it really could not be that difficult, the spells are already in game, To make the class excel they would but need to only add in one feat. In my opinion it really could not be all that time consuming and it would send a great signal that Turbine is serious about adding at least some prestige classes.

Can anybody think of any issues that would preclude Turbine from adding this PrC into the game?

I wonder this about lots of races, sub-races, and prestige class, where the work is already done it seems.
How hard would Duergar be? We've got dark skin tones available for Dwarves, just add the special abilities. Gold/Shield Dwarves, Wood/Moon Elves, it seems like its as easy as pushing a button and changing the starting stats. Prestige classes like Dwarven Defender, Duelist, Assassin, it seems like all it takes is adding some bonuses here and there at certain levels easy as pie right? Apparently not or I'm sure we'd have some of it, since it would only bring more customers and money and keep more of us playing.

[maddmatt70]

I would love dwarven defender, duelist, and mystic theurge. That would be beyond fun if they had those..

[Taur]

well... the entire skill system would have to be reworked in order to properly implement most prestige classes and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

[Cowdenicus]

well... the entire skill system would have to be reworked in order to properly implement most prestige classes and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

They could always change the skill pre reqs as DDO does not really have many skills in the game. (comparatively to what is available in P&P)

[Laith]

It is difficult for a feat to give a specific amount of SP because SP gained by a specific class varies as the level increases...

you misunderstand where the feat would be applied.

the feat wouldn't give a set amount of SP, etc... you're right, that wouldn't work. it would have to modify your level BEFORE sp, spell slots, etc were calculated.

step 3 should have read
"3) when you cast a spell, load your spell list, or calculate your max SP: instead of looking at just your class level, it adds in these feats to calculate your caster level. Then, using this modified caster level determines your sp, spell slots, etc"

[Alavatar]

you misunderstand where the feat would be applied.

the feat wouldn't give a set amount of SP, etc... you're right, that wouldn't work. it would have to modify your level BEFORE sp, spell slots, etc were calculated.

step 3 should have read
"3) when you cast a spell, load your spell list, or calculate your max SP: instead of looking at just your class level, it adds in these feats to calculate your caster level. Then, using this modified caster level determines your sp, spell slots, etc"

I suppose.

I think it is futile for us to debate the subject, though, because neither one of us know how it is really coded (unless you have an inside source ). That, and I am a mechanical engineer, not a software engineer. I try to avoid programming and so don't know much about what can be done.

[Cowdenicus]

I would love for Codog to respond but I think he has enough on his plate with TWF and ranged at the moment, but I sure would love to know.