Please quit ignoring the Rogue class

[Laith]

And my cleric can run by everything in GH, the desert and the orchard and wand-whip those for those occasional hits. Plus I get where I'm going a lot sooner.

invisibility is an even better option, and it still allows healing

Your other three examples are one rare occurrence and two things that are only useful when soloing. That's not exactly a rousing series of powerful applications of skills.

sometimes it's just better to be able to disarm traps before aggroing mobs. Xorian Cipher's archer hallway is a prime example.

failing move silently checks is an interesting art (thru sneak and/or invis), seems a bit better at seperating groups than body pulling (ie getting spotted), but i haven't used it too often. failing a check is hardly a validation of a skill though.

i would agree that stealth needs MORE uses (namely pickpocket).

[Emili]

invisibility is an even better option, and it still allows healing

sometimes it's just better to be able to disarm traps before aggroing mobs. Xorian Cipher's archer hallway is a prime example.

failing move silently checks is an interesting art (thru sneak and/or invis), seems a bit better at seperating groups than body pulling (ie getting spotted), but i haven't used it too often. failing a check is hardly a validation of a skill though.

i would agree that stealth needs MORE uses (namely pickpocket).

Yes pickpocket would be a nice skill to add... also I've taken down the electric traps on elite flesh makers shield optional chest before the party even entered by using stealth... or would you prefer to spam heal everyone when the golems popped and the electrical traps are going off? Is your cleric, your pp. As I said there is nothing wrong with the sneak skill.

Again I ask where Turbine has ignored the rogue in comparison to other classes?

[Hafeal]

I think this entire post, and ones similar to it, are vents to the "build" problem. As recently acknowledged by one of the devs (I can't find the post darn it), I believe rogues suffer worst from "bad build syndrome." Ultimately, players are given a vast number of choices in creating and building their characters. Unfortuantely, the way DDO has evolved, the number of "bad" choices is greater than the number of "good". Guess what - players make a lot of bad choices.

And that is amplified for casual players who are much less likely to track changes through the levels and focus instead on "spur of the moment" need/ desire at level changes (which can be weeks or months apart).

The end result is that, for the more casual player, high-level (I would characterize this as 11+) becomes limited in access and, depending on character choices, often unsuccessful, even unplayable, characters.

The real question in my mind is to ask how devs can limit the number of bad choices players can make without severely impacting the play of the game.

[Seneca_Windforge]

I think this entire post, and ones similar to it, are vents to the "build" problem. As recently acknowledged by one of the devs (I can't find the post darn it), I believe rogues suffer worst from "bad build syndrome." Ultimately, players are given a vast number of choices in creating and building their characters. Unfortuantely, the way DDO has evolved, the number of "bad" choices is greater than the number of "good". Guess what - players make a lot of bad choices.

And that is amplified for casual players who are much less likely to track changes through the levels and focus instead on "spur of the moment" need/ desire at level changes (which can be weeks or months apart).

The end result is that, for the more casual player, high-level (I would characterize this as 11+) becomes limited in access and, depending on character choices, often unsuccessful, even unplayable, characters.

The real question in my mind is to ask how devs can limit the number of bad choices players can make without severely impacting the play of the game.

Rangers also have this problem to some degree.

Easier respec might help. Of course, there are way too many people who are wholly unsympathetic to casual players in that regard, so it'll probably never happen.

Not implementing weak material (poor feat/racial choices, etc) and providing good, solid advice at character creation can help. Preferably, said advice should be written by actual players of the game who have realistic experience with DDO gameplay.

[reziel_deadshot]

You started with Mod three, then proceeded to four and now five with screwing the Rogue class out of participating in the three new raids. You make the preraids and raids so that a Rogue is never needed. I love playing my Rogue. It is my main character, but I have to constantly fight to be included in any preraids or raids. The Dragon and Titan were nice because the class was needed. Please, please, please quit ignoring this class when making the preraids and raids. At this rate the only way I will get to see the Abbot raid is when I can solo it.

lol sorry but you dont need a rogue for any of the pre raids..in my guild we completly skip the green side of the tunnel and do purple only, and we go onto the titan raid...no rogue needed

dragon pre raid...on normal trap does maybe 5opts of damage...just run right through it, and my tank with 2 levels of rogue can unlock any door

sorry lol rogues not needed in any quest except cabal chest...thats like a 60 DC...pain in the ....well you get the idea..

[reziel_deadshot]

Rangers also have this problem to some degree.

Easier respec might help. Of course, there are way too many people who are wholly unsympathetic to casual players in that regard, so it'll probably never happen.

Not implementing weak material (poor feat/racial choices, etc) and providing good, solid advice at character creation can help. Preferably, said advice should be written by actual players of the game who have realistic experience with DDO gameplay.

rangers are best solo characters evasion, +45 and up ac self buffed, saves 20+ with greater heroism, great DPS if str built which all rangers should have good dex str and con, so can range and melee...and can wand heal, personally best solo build without multi class.

*note* not to mention freedom of movement spell.

[QuantumFX]

As I said there is nothing wrong with the sneak skill.

Except for the fact that you can't use it to ditch enemies like you can in P&P...

[Seneca_Windforge]

rangers are best solo characters evasion, +45 and up ac self buffed, saves 20+ with greater heroism, great DPS if str built which all rangers should have good dex str and con, so can range and melee...and can wand heal, personally best solo build without multi class.

*note* not to mention freedom of movement spell.

...yes, but all that has nothing to do with the fact that Rangers can also be easily screwed up, like Rogues. Bad favored enemy choices, a low strength, and a poor constitution can very easily make for an inferior Ranger.

[MysticTheurge]

Except for the fact that you can't use it to ditch enemies like you can in P&P...

Hey, what'd you want to bet that Mod6's new Rogue Enhancements see a "Hide in Plain Sight" ability.

That'd be pretty awesome.

I wonder if Eladrin can pull it off. It should probably go in the Assassin one (or in the new Shadowdancer one that he's going to do but hasn't announced yet).

[QuantumFX]

Hey, what'd you want to bet that Mod6's new Rogue Enhancements see a "Hide in Plain Sight" ability.

That'd be pretty awesome.

I wonder if Eladrin can pull it off. It should probably go in the Assassin one (or in the new Shadowdancer one that he's going to do but hasn't announced yet).

Hell they could make the bluff skill work like it does in P&P. Since it still requires the "woah check that out" animation letting it do 2 things (SA vulnerability or go into ninja mode) would be a nice compromise.

I'm not holding out hope though. Stealth is so ignored in this game that I fully expect lvl 15 to be the ranger leveling break point. (Though I'm sure Turbine will realize "Oh **** we're encouraging that evil multiclassing again better make a level 18 ranger enhancement chain that allows them to insta kill favored enemies on a crit!)

[QuantumFX]

OK, since the Mod 5.0a: Operation player hate theme song is complete I thought I'd spend some time writing a song for my fellow rogue players.

Sung to U2's Where the Streets have no name.

Where a Rogue has no place.

I want to sneak!
I want to hide!
I wanna do other things
than just do traps and die
I want to pwn all
and have fun in a game
Where a rogue has no place!

I want to dodge a ray spell for once.
Have a use for scrolls other than buffs!
I want to take up arms in a game
Where a rogue has no place!

Where a rogue has no place!
Where a rogue has no place!
We're still waiting
to feel some dev love.
Feel some dev love.
And hoping it comes soon
is all I can do.

Don't make Stormreach a bust!
where rogues just collect dust.
We're beaten and pounded by trolls
and disentegrated into dust
High levels in a game
Where a rogue has no place!

Where a rogue has no place!
Where a rogue has no place!
We're still waiting
to feel some dev love.
Feel some dev love.
And hoping it comes soon
is all I can do.

[ahpook]

Adding a method by which you can sneak attack undead and constructs, on the other hand, would go a very long way to ensuring that pure rogues are combat-capable more widely throughout the game. Be it spell (readily available in scroll or wand form), weapon enchantment, rogue enhancement or pretty much any other method, this simple addition would go light years toward making rogues more effective in a large number of quests.

Or you know, just go to more 4th edition-like rules where Zombies, at least but one guesses most undead, are subject to critical hits, and thus, one assumes, sneak attacks:

Rogue's sneaking constructs and undead are great but if they can also be critted then there is no gain. Part of the "fighting rogue" problem (IMHO) is that sneak attacks are simply inferior to the crit's that fighters get in DDO. With their super high Str and Seekers, crits far out strip sneaks in damage and are far less conditional.
So if you give both critting and sneak susceptibility at the same time, you haven't really gained much as rogues will still be generally inferior fighters. That is exactly what they are now against those types of mobs.

[Yajerman01]

lol sorry but you dont need a rogue for any of the pre raids..in my guild we completly skip the green side of the tunnel and do purple only, and we go onto the titan raid...no rogue needed

dragon pre raid...on normal trap does maybe 5opts of damage...just run right through it, and my tank with 2 levels of rogue can unlock any door

sorry lol rogues not needed in any quest except cabal chest...thats like a 60 DC...pain in the ....well you get the idea..

the DC is 61 on elite. Your tank on von 5 normal, i agree in part, but your dead meat on elite! And your tank cannot unlock any door.

I am surprised that you took the time to write a song, you must really loath Rogues. A good and properly built rogue can do anything your tank can do, and more! I laugh at your narrow perception of rogues.

You keep that belief - I love to hear such negatory comments, its people like you that make me cherrish my rogue that much more!

[llevenbaxx]

Rogue's sneaking constructs and undead are great but if they can also be critted then there is no gain. Part of the "fighting rogue" problem (IMHO) is that sneak attacks are simply inferior to the crit's that fighters get in DDO. With their super high Str and Seekers, crits far out strip sneaks in damage and are far less conditional.
So if you give both critting and sneak susceptibility at the same time, you haven't really gained much as rogues will still be generally inferior fighters. That is exactly what they are now against those types of mobs.

Working as intended I say. At no point do I want to see a pure rogue fight as well or be as combat tough as a ftr/barb. This is where balance comes into the character customization process.

If you want your rogue to be a better fighter, take a couple levels of fighter or use the build(stat) points in areas to get the desired affects. You want to do more damage, make a strength based rogue. You want to make your rogue hold up better in combat, give him more con. All are trade-offs.

There is still gain for rogues if they can be hurt by crits and SA. Some rogues more than others but its all in how you build them. Rogues are for the most part situational melee combatants, they must carefully choose when and where to strike and not leave themselves open too much. This is the D&D rogue.

[reziel_deadshot]

the DC is 61 on elite. Your tank on von 5 normal, i agree in part, but your dead meat on elite! And your tank cannot unlock any door.

I am surprised that you took the time to write a song, you must really loath Rogues. A good and properly built rogue can do anything your tank can do, and more! I laugh at your narrow perception of rogues.

You keep that belief - I love to hear such negatory comments, its people like you that make me cherrish my rogue that much more!

umm first, my tank can open any chest/door on elite, seeing how the majority are only 50ish DC's with the exception of the cabal trap,

as for the dragon raid von5

A) why would u run it on elite (von5) other then once? not like it gives any loot worth keeping.

B) the traps still are worthless, any of the clerics in my guild can survive the traps on elite, and if they don't i just raise them or someone in my guild does, every toon in my guild that im in can raise, we all either have A. rings of ancestors. or B. have umd and can heal, or C. well...we are clerics but thats just a silly one.

so there for, my tank on average swing non crit is about 60pts initial then when u add all of my other +'s in its pretty high as it is, on crits it is about 150ish, i doubt your rogue can do that, nor can he achieve my hit points..unless is build for that specific reason but then if thats the case you wouldn't have as high strength and/or dex. no negativity just stating the fact that well ummm...rogues are basically not needed at all. for any the quest in the game..unless the cabal chest lol, but even then so, a 13/1 ranger/rogue can achieve enough open lock to get it anyways...so i stand my point..

[Yajerman01]

umm first, my tank can open any chest/door on elite, seeing how the majority are only 50ish DC's with the exception of the cabal trap,

as for the dragon raid von5

A) why would u run it on elite (von5) other then once? not like it gives any loot worth keeping.

B) the traps still are worthless, any of the clerics in my guild can survive the traps on elite, and if they don't i just raise them or someone in my guild does, every toon in my guild that im in can raise, we all either have A. rings of ancestors. or B. have umd and can heal, or C. well...we are clerics but thats just a silly one.

so there for, my tank on average swing non crit is about 60pts initial then when u add all of my other +'s in its pretty high as it is, on crits it is about 150ish, i doubt your rogue can do that, nor can he achieve my hit points..unless is build for that specific reason but then if thats the case you wouldn't have as high strength and/or dex. no negativity just stating the fact that well ummm...rogues are basically not needed at all. for any the quest in the game..unless the cabal chest lol, but even then so, a 13/1 ranger/rogue can achieve enough open lock to get it anyways...so i stand my point..

Yep, you never had/built a rogue, dont know much about rogues, and what knowledge you do know you believe reflects exponentially. You only strengthen a rogues argument. Why do vons 5 on elite? because its fun and a bit more challenging. Secondly - unlike the majority of people, saving mana, res scrolls and res clickies, heals, etc is something concious people foresee. So if wasting mana, res scrolls and heals is something you dont mind, good for you. I think the majority of players rather disarm traps, like in vons 5, rather then waste money time and mana.

You have no idea what my rogue can do, so go ahead, sit there and speculate. You lack the capacity of what a good rogue can do so it is pointless to engage your narrow mindedness. Most noteably you lack imagination of the game and objectivity is not in your book. And yes, my toon is dex based, 32 to be exact. he averages 45-50+ dps and crits 90-105. I can use ANY scroll and ANY wand i want - I can use ANY race required item i want - he is not twinked out, yet i can do what your tank does and more THATS A FACT- granted i do not hit as hard and do not have as many hit points - but i dont care because I in fact have the greater survivability. Your just a pot drinking, mana sponging, cleric needy tank with a splash of rogue.

I still laugh at you and the fact that you made such an effort to flame troll this post and more to the fact that you actually sat there and altered a U2 song, im sorry that you spent so much time on that. wow! what a chud!

If I was ever to run cabal for that specific reason - id jump in loot, the chest and get out before death, give an emote gesture, never disable the trap, laugh at you and leave.

Flame on!

[QuantumFX]

I still laugh at you and the fact that you made such an effort to flame troll this post and more to the fact that you actually sat there and altered a U2 song, im sorry that you spent so much time on that. wow! what a chud!

First, I'm the one who parodied U2. If that makes me a troll then I'm sorry that your internal sarcasm detector is on the blink.

Second, I love the rogue class and feel that the developers keep taking the rogue down the wrong track. Yes they are able to be trapsmiths. But we don't need higher Search/Disable DCs to make this a fact. I see the skill mastery ability as an excuse for Rocking Dead to make yet another stupid high DC trap that fully trap specced rogues won't be able to find but a 2 Rogue/14 Wizard Will be able to find. I'd rather see rogues stand out as trapsmith by speed rather than by skill level. It would also help if a rogue didn't have to spend all their APs to handle all the high end traps in this game.

[ahpook]

Working as intended I say. At no point do I want to see a pure rogue fight as well or be as combat tough as a ftr/barb. This is where balance comes into the character customization process.

If you want your rogue to be a better fighter, take a couple levels of fighter or use the build(stat) points in areas to get the desired affects. You want to do more damage, make a strength based rogue. You want to make your rogue hold up better in combat, give him more con. All are trade-offs.

There is still gain for rogues if they can be hurt by crits and SA. Some rogues more than others but its all in how you build them. Rogues are for the most part situational melee combatants, they must carefully choose when and where to strike and not leave themselves open too much. This is the D&D rogue.

Of course rogues should not be superior fighters (whether their conditional dps would ever qualify them as such we can discuss another time). My point was simply that giving sneak attacks on constructs and undead will do nothing to bolster rogues if it also allows crits on those creatures as fighters will still be the superior choice for fighting those creatures.

Bolster rogues by making their other skills useful.

Enhancing sneaking to accomplish objectives or to make the quest easier (by allowing fights to made simpler or avoided) would be my first choice. Sneak down a section of hallway and open the back door so the rest of the team can get an easier route. If done well, the rogue can be doing this while the rest of the party is taking on an encounter so they aren't standing around waiting.

Also, allow more chests and doors to be unlocked by picking. I find it funny that a wiz can solo loot the orchard easily by casting spells, a fighter can solo loot the orchard by swinging his sword, but most rogues will have trouble solo looting due to DPS issues. The rogues natural method of looting by sneaking and stealing is disabled because you have to kill the named to unlock the chest. For no good reason. Even though it would still be an inferior method to how the fighter and wizard go about it because you wouldn't get any XP for doing it the sneaky way.

To those who say the rogues get plenty of love I think that they have no idea of what playing a rogue is about.

[llevenbaxx]

Bolster rogues by making their other skills useful.

Enhancing sneaking to accomplish objectives or to make the quest easier (by allowing fights to made simpler or avoided) would be my first choice. Sneak down a section of hallway and open the back door so the rest of the team can get an easier route. If done well, the rogue can be doing this while the rest of the party is taking on an encounter so they aren't standing around waiting.

Also, allow more chests and doors to be unlocked by picking. I find it funny that a wiz can solo loot the orchard easily by casting spells, a fighter can solo loot the orchard by swinging his sword, but most rogues will have trouble solo looting due to DPS issues. The rogues natural method of looting by sneaking and stealing is disabled because you have to kill the named to unlock the chest. For no good reason. Even though it would still be an inferior method to how the fighter and wizard go about it because you wouldn't get any XP for doing it the sneaky way.

To those who say the rogues get plenty of love I think that they have no idea of what playing a rogue is about.

This wouldnt be a bad, if limited, use of the ol pick pocket. Allow rogues to use their stealth to sneak up on some of the named mods and steel(pick pocket?) their key from them. Basically thats what we do(take thier key) except we have to kill them now. Would be mostly useful in the open/hunter areas but not all that bad.

Also how would it not boost rogues if they could SA and crit undead and constructs. While the others could only crit. That would make them just like every other mob in the game. Crit damage might not make much of a difference on your build but its quite nice for some. Not that im sure I even like idea.

[Hvymetal]

my tank on average swing non crit is about 60pts initial then when u add all of my other +'s in its pretty high as it is, on crits it is about 150ish, i doubt your rogue can do that, nor can he achieve my hit points..unless is build for that specific reason but then if thats the case you wouldn't have as high strength and/or dex. no negativity just stating the fact that well ummm...rogues are basically not needed at all. for any the quest in the game..unless the cabal chest lol, but even then so, a 13/1 ranger/rogue can achieve enough open lock to get it anyways...so i stand my point..

Never seen a str based rogue have you? But please keep your narrow view it is yours cherish it.... Whats your evasion builds ref save sitting at anyways?