Please quit ignoring the Rogue class

[NiasTrams]

Think of the sceen in "The Rock" where Sean Connery's character rolls threw a very deadly situation, if he died the mission would have ended there. Without his skills and knowledge the party's party couldn't have started.

I also miss stealthy looting, why can't a rogue sneak past all the armed forces of evil to loot the treasure room to find the item the evil guys are not supposed to learn how to use.

I might even swim up a sewer and climb up the **** chute to open a heavily fortified ogre keep to allow the raiding party in if the scenario existed.

Maybe I go in and drug the water barrels so they cannot think clearly when my friends arrive in the morning after breakfast.

While rangers can do some of these things as well as rogues and other classes might be able to do one or two, rogues might become fun again.

Also saw a post where scrolls and UMD was mentioned, now that wall of fire and cloud kill, amoungst others, have been fixed to not work through barriers or otherwise exploited more than a crafty rogue should be allowed to exploit them can we get them back so they can be used in ways that are realistic in a fantasy world.

[Hvymetal]

Actually stealthy looting isn't totally removed from the game...... hmmm maybe I shouldn't have mentioned that

[Kingfish]

Why not make a Trap Box require XX+ to disable...make that number be a target # that a maxed out 14th lvl pure rogue max buffed, max disable enhancement line and twinked to the extream with a 28+ DEX and THEN a roll of 16+ on their d20<no box blow expect unless you roll 30 less than the target...and no explosions for a "1", that would just be mean >?

Only pure rogues get the MAX Rogue boosts...maybe a human with HV IV might do it on a 17+...but not many Batman builds have 28+ dex tho.

Its that MAXED out Rogue boost and the MAXED out rogue enhancement lines that make a pure rogue SHINE.

As long as there are some boxes that have only a 50+ target you'll still have no need for a PURE rogue.

The above trap box would be for this trap...a slow gas trap(freedom of movement won't eliminate) and following this have a series of disintigrate blades that DESTROY one item you carry at random per hit...only minor damage otherwise...<oh, the trap just destroyed my Vorpal...it destroyed my +5 Mith FP!!! I TOLD you we needed a rogue!!!> So you wouldn't HAVE to take a rogue...but it would be faster AND less 'costly'.

Why not allow a rogue to once again save the day?

Just my opinion...

[Dariun]

Why not make a Trap Box require XX+ to disable...make that number be a target # that a maxed out 14th lvl pure rogue max buffed, max disable enhancement line and twinked to the extream with a 28+ DEX and THEN a roll of 16+ on their d20<no box blow expect unless you roll 30 less than the target...and no explosions for a "1", that would just be mean >?

Because it would mean that the vast majority of players would fail, only the most well planned, focused, and elite trapsmiths would be able to disable the trap, the general player base would get use to the fact that rogues cannot disable that trap so they would not bother inviting them so that even if you had one of those elite trapsmiths only your guild would see you disable the trap. I suppose you could come brag on the forum about it, but then your thread would get locked...

Anyway, if you want to help rogues in DDO, you have to focus on what DDO is all about: combat combat combat combat combat combat and more combat.

Abilities that increase DPS and survivability are the only ones that really matter. That's why so many rogues would be better off with a few fighter, paladin, or ranger levels.

A high level ability/enhancement that allowed rogues to be as effective against undead/constructs as they are against giants/humanoids would probably be the single best bonus. An ability/enhancement that protected from critical hits or failed will/fort saves would also be great.

8 HP/lvl and full BAB wouldn't hurt either .

[Invalid_86]

Most enemy attacks don't even come close to comparing to ours in terms of speed/rate.

You know, I went to bed last night and thought to myself "You know, my last post didn't make much sense..."!

[SableShadow]

I don't actually think the class is being ignored; the changes to "of Deception" weapons, and the creation of the "Subtle Backstabber" enhancement and similar weapons are two clearly 'rogue love' acts.

It has, however, taken some prompting and suggestions on our parts to get these things. And, yes, I was a tad annoyed to get 'undead heavy' quests with Mod 5...note, however, the effort to include living critters in otherwise undead quests. To me, this shows that attention is being paid to the class even in these quests.

Something to help with undead/constructs/elementals would be nice....maybe an enhancement or feat that gives 1/2 sneak attack damage against such would be in line. Not every rogue can afford the kind of gear some of us have (greater undead/construct/elemental bane, dual banishers/smiters/disruptors). And, of course, I think MT and Aesop's comments are spot on...just need more useful things to do with the skill (ranks) we have.

I don't see changes to the difficulties or lethalities of traps as being the answer.

[Kingfish]

Because it would mean that the vast majority of players would fail, only the most well planned, focused, and elite trapsmiths would be able to disable the trap...

Vast majority? A vast majority of Batman builds and mixed multiclasses, yes, they would fail. But we are talking about making a pure rogue shine. Clearly this is about end game challenges.

Using my above example, I've seen MANY pure rogues with 32+ DEX [+ 2] there are some +1 & 2 skill roll items [+ 1or2] and a couple of +15 DD items floating around [+3]...now add those to my example that’s about a 50/50 chance on elite for an ELITE PURE ROGUE Trapsmith! Isn't that what you'd want to bust a trap that’s protecting a level 18+ chest?

If you make the reward equal or EXCEED the difficulty...the rogues will come and try AND groups will embrace them...and...word will spread.

[Hvymetal]

I used to be one that believed that changes needed to be made to traps, ect. to "make" people want to bring a rogue along.

Slowly over time I have found my views on this subject changing. So what if a xx/1 Wiz/Rog or a batman can do traps? I for one would find a lot of enjoyment taken out of my rogues if I had to spend every enhancement point I could squeeze out + a few feats + the best possible equipment to be able to handle traps. I have 1 trap monkey rogue in my stable of 4, I barely ever play him anymore.

A rogues strength is our versatility, our skills, our dps, our abilities & last but not least the difficulty of playing the class. Huh? you ask, rogues are difficult to play well, probablly one of the hardest to succede at and make people go "wow this rogues good". Basically most people that can't handle one quit before they get out of the mid levels. A majority of the time if you see a multi-dimesional 14 rogue that player knows what he/she is doing.

The problem with rogues is not the class, it is peoples perception of the class. The only ones that can change peoples perception of rogues is us the players. The more trap-monkey "I only range" rogues we see out there the more this perception is perpetuated.

I for one do not want traps that have to have a max skilled, 20+ int, all enhancement, all feat rogue to handle them. Then I cannot play to the classes strength: versatility.

Just my 2 cp.

[Kingfish]

I used to be one that believed that changes needed to be made to traps, ect. to "make" people want to bring a rogue along....I for one do not want traps that have to have a max skilled, 20+ int, all enhancement, all feat rogue to handle them. Then I cannot play to the classes strength: versatility.

Just my 2 cp.

Well said...and I will rethink my position.

I think one thing they could do...one thing that in retrospec seemed such a small(probably shortcut on the devs part) thing but now its the root of all this...class skills vs. non-class skills. I'm not gonna explain what I KNOW everyone understands...but this IS the problem.

Again, thanks for taking the time to explain you PoV the way you did.

[Raithe]

Using my above example, I've seen MANY pure rogues with 32+ DEX [+ 2] ...

Not sure if you were aware of this, but Disable Device and Search are intelligence based skills...

[Agarwaen]

I agree with you 100&#37; Hvymetal.

Being able to disarm the traps will only get a bit of notice on a few select quests...and disarming them is only moderately fun in my opinion. Being a good contributor in battles (without being the cleric's mana sponge) will get you more recognition by fellow players, and is great fun. But doing both those and more is the most fun of all, and is sure to get you noticed by fellow players and quickly added to their friend's lists.

For instance, in gianthold a few days ago, I was taking out the traps and killing the mobs just fine, and without losing much health at all. But when the Pug group really took notice of me was when a battle went south and four characters died in about 5 seconds, including the cleric. I immediately grabbed 3 stones, ran to hide, res'ed them, healed them, and we proceeded on to the next shrine to get everyone's spell points back. All the scrolls and wands I used were expensive, of course, but it was well worth it.

Yesterday, I received a tell from two of the players that were in that Pug, "Hey Mithran, how's it going?" It doesn't take too many performances like that to get your Rogue invited into lots and lots of Pugs.

So I completely agree. Please don't ever make the traps so hard our Rogues become one dimentional. Versatility is our strength, and that is also what makes a Rogue tremendously fun to play.

[BlueLightBandit]

Shield chest is optional, just like a rogue is optional on doing any of the required stuff.

If DDO could find a way to make trapsmithing a viable way to make running a quest FASTER, like DPS and Healing does... many rogues would be happy.

A. All character classes are "optional" in DDO... that's by design.

B. The only way they could make a quest faster with a rogue would be to include a shortcut somewhere that was behind a locked an un-knockable door... and then people would only complain that the quest is (a.) too long without a rogue... (b.) not very exciting with a rogue.

[Kingfish]

Not sure if you were aware of this, but Disable Device and Search are intelligence based skills...

You know...your right...i would have sworn DD was Dex based...but...i guess i've never noticed cause my batman has a 26 INT oh well...what we need then are more Wiz/Rogues!

[LogannX]

I think the title of this thread should be addressed more to the player base rather than the developers. Exceptionally narrow minded playstyles are the cause of most grief for the rogue not a broken class.

Sarkk

[wiglin]

I would like to see more incentive for rogues to stay mostly pure. This game has already strayed far enough from pnp rules, why give rogues an inherent search, and disable bonus, much like they do for reflex saves against traps.

Rogue Level 3= +1 to Search and Disable skills. Rogues get an additional +1 every odd level. 3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17

This would give more incentive to stay pure rogue, or only multiclass 1 to 2 levels. Now rogues could focus less on trapsmithing and more on dps. Instead of taking every feat and ehancement in the game it get all the traps, they can take feats and enhancements to make them more combat friendly.

[MysticTheurge]

This game has already strayed far enough from pnp rules

This justification never ceases to amaze me. Watch what else I can do with it:

This game has already strayed far enough from the D&D rules... why not add the Horde and the Alliance?

This game has already strayed far enough from the D&D rules... why not add Jedi and Blasters?

This game has already strayed far enough from the D&D rules... why not add superheroes and supervillians?

This game has already strayed far enough from the D&D rules... why not rename clerics to white mages and wizards to black mages?

Because this is Dungeons and Dragons Online, that's why not. Stick to the D&D rules as faithfully as possible. When necessary, deviate from them, but that deviation hardly justifies just making up other rules for the heck of it.

[QuantumFX]

I would like to see more incentive for rogues to stay mostly pure. This game has already strayed far enough from pnp rules, why give rogues an inherent search, and disable bonus, much like they do for reflex saves against traps.

Not sure if you're talking about Uncanny dodge or Trap sense but both are part of the D&D 3.5 ruleset and the uncanny dodge clickie is to compensate for the lack of AoOs in DDO.

Rogue Level 3= +1 to Search and Disable skills. Rogues get an additional +1 every odd level. 3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17

This would give more incentive to stay pure rogue, or only multiclass 1 to 2 levels. Now rogues could focus less on trapsmithing and more on dps. Instead of taking every feat and ehancement in the game it get all the traps, they can take feats and enhancements to make them more combat friendly.

The incentive for staying pure rogue in P&P is the awesome high level abilities it should be no different in DDO. So far Turbine has implemented one awesome ability (Improved Evasion) and gave us one that's gimped by their game engine (Crippling Strike and the fact that a 0 in any stat should = death.) They need to make sure that the remaining abilities are absolute lifesavers and totally worth the sacrifice.

Examples:

Skill Mastery: rather than the proposed current +1 inherent bonus to all skills it should be a +5 skills/5x per day clickie and speed up skill useage by 50%. (ex. half time to search/disable, sneak faster, insta bluff.) This would free up 10 APs since Skill action boost would be redundant and help the zerging through traps situation since there would be less of a wait and the rogue would have a smaller chance to get hit by a trap. (ex. Von 5, Enemy Within)

Opportunist: This should be like cleave/greater cleave for sneak attacks.

Defensive Roll: make it like the P&P feat but make it available 100% of the time and a passive ability.

Slippery Mind: Since everyone already has this ability in DDO make it like the new feats "Force of Personality" or "Intuitive reflexes" and allow the rogue to use their DEX or INT bonus instead of their WIS bonus for will saves.

[SableShadow]

Slippery Mind: Since everyone already has this ability in DDO make it like the new feats "Force of Personality" or "Intuitive reflexes" and allow the rogue to use their DEX or INT bonus instead of their WIS bonus for will saves.

Actually, 2 saves for 1 in DDO would be kinda sweet. Granted, there are *periodic* saves that everyone gets, but consider getting a second save if the first one failed at that same interval.

[tomasdarkell]

With respect, I would disagree with the OP.

Out of the four sigil quests in the Orchard, two of them require a rogue to (effectively) get the shield chest (one is disarming the traps in Fleshmaker, and the other is opening the locked door in Vol).

In addition - the Cursed Crypt has an optional chest that requires a rogue to reach, and one of the new Tomb quests has several traps that, admittedly can be bypassed, but really benefit from having a rogue.

I would say that, on average, compared with other mods - mod5 has been pretty generous to rogues. What the devs are doing is making it so you can still complete a quest without a rogue, but by having one in your group, you stand to benefit considerably.

Garth

He said preraid and raids not quests

[wiglin]

This justification never ceases to amaze me. Watch what else I can do with it:

This game has already strayed far enough from the D&D rules... why not add the Horde and the Alliance?

This game has already strayed far enough from the D&D rules... why not add Jedi and Blasters?

This game has already strayed far enough from the D&D rules... why not add superheroes and supervillians?

This game has already strayed far enough from the D&D rules... why not rename clerics to white mages and wizards to black mages?

Because this is Dungeons and Dragons Online, that's why not. Stick to the D&D rules as faithfully as possible. When necessary, deviate from them, but that deviation hardly justifies just making up other rules for the heck of it.

See now your talking about stuff that doesn't fit the world. I just made a simple example of what would give rogues more incentive to stay pure. Turbine has already made up rules. I just mentioned something that would fit into the game mechanics. As it stand a pure rogue is not needed. They can do traps, but so can a 1rogue/anything else, and still being more useful to the party.

The party doesn't need your critical strike, learn to build a character and slippery mind (if it gets implemented) would only be useful on a 1, skill mastery +1 what a joke.

These abilities are hardly worth staying pure.

What I suggested was not far fetched. It lets rogues focus their enhancements and feats in combat without gimping the trapsmithing ability.

This is an mmo base on dnd. Dnd it is not.