Please quit ignoring the Rogue class

[Jithel]

Um a Fighter with enough Int and Dex that takes one lvl of rogue can do just as well as your 14 rogue and hit higher end mobs to boot. Not to mention they have a broader range of weapons they can use and they can take more feats as bonus for weapon damage and to hit and leave there natural 4 to take rogue feats with.
Now that being said... The only real way to get rid of this one lvl of rogue **** is to take out the fact that you can put a full rank into a skill that was previously a class skill and is no longer. Cause yea my 13fighter/1rogue with a 18 int and a 24 Dex (not including enhancements, stat items, or tomes). That also gives me enough skill points to keep up Open Lock, Disable Device, Search, and Spot. So now I have a better BAB and more feats with the same Disable, Search and Open. So why besides flavor and being true to my class should i be a full rogue again?

[Impaqt]

Um a Fighter with enough Int and Dex that takes one lvl of rogue can do just as well as your 14 rogue and hit higher end mobs to boot. Not to mention they have a broader range of weapons they can use and they can take more feats as bonus for weapon damage and to hit and leave there natural 4 to take rogue feats with.
Now that being said... The only real way to get rid of this one lvl of rogue **** is to take out the fact that you can put a full rank into a skill that was previously a class skill and is no longer. Cause yea my 13fighter/1rogue with a 18 int and a 24 Dex (not including enhancements, stat items, or tomes). That also gives me enough skill points to keep up Open Lock, Disable Device, Search, and Spot. So now I have a better BAB and more feats with the same Disable, Search and Open. So why besides flavor and being true to my class should i be a full rogue again?

A Fighter with an 18 base INT?

Sorry, but you stil would NOT have enough skil points to max all those skill and you would of had to sacrifice other stats significantly to get that high.

You also lose any resemblence of fighter class skills....

There are significant sacrifices to make.... 24 Dex? Thats just Silly talk there.... Thats flat out immpossible for ANY character to do without Stat Items, Enhancements or items.. (20 Max Base + 3 Levels =23)

Do we want to start talking about 13 levels of Rogue Enhancements now?

All that aside though... what it comes down to is this....

if you think it takes a big nasty trap to make a rogue a viable class for a raid you need to think again.... First, most players are going to run through that trap regardless..... I've run my clerics through the Von trap just to prove a point.....

Rogues can do a LOT more than disable traps... If thats all you focused on in yoru build, you buildt a gimp rogue. I would never build a character in PnP that only did traps.....

It doesnt matter what class you are if you get teleported to a puzzle in the Abbot.... But a High Jump Skill can be very beneficial....

A Nice Greater Undead bane or Disruptor goes a long way in there as well..... No reason a Rogue cant weil those....

The fact that yoru character is a rogue has nothing to do with getting into a raid.....

Its either A: The rest of the party.. Or at least party leader has no concept of what a rogue can do or B: Your just not that desireable a player to have in the group..... Could be a gimp build. Could be you (Of course, this is NOT directed at anyone in particular)

[TreknaQudane]

Well.. the differences between a 14 Fighter and a 14 Rogue...

BAB is only 4 points off a Fighter
7d6 Sneak Attack
Crippling Strike (each successful sneak attack LESSENS your enemies to hit and damage by 1 because of it.)
Improved Evasion
Improved Uncanny Dodge (quite good for when you know you will need some extra AC)
Your skills won't cost you NEARLY as much to keep up as a multiclass and will probably have a better variety.
No Fighter Bonus Feats (See above for tradeoff)

So.. yeah.. I think there's reason to go full rogue

[Qzipoun]

Paladins and Rangers, now those are useless classes.

Wow... have you even played with paladins and rangers?

[Crabo]

No offense, but I find this statement really funny.

I must have really bad luck with grouping, both in guild and out, because I have run with more useless fighters and barbarians than adequate ones.

It is quite difficult to make a barbarian or a fighter worth anything for the end game. Their saves are poor, they can't do anything that doesn't require getting within melee range, and they can't buff themselves.

That's why I say why not take a rogue, you are just as likely to get a worthless melee if you don't.

A decent caster can make an average tank quite good. But they may need some buffs that 6 levels of wizard cannot provide.
Some fighters gimp themself by taking 2 levels of ranger for AWESOME bow damage too i guess so the message is just be careful who you play with.
No offense but i found your signature funny.

[MysticTheurge]

a) People need to get over their fear of multiclassing. You can build your character however you choose. Having a few levels in one class and a few levels in another class doesn't make them any more or less those classes than you with your 14 levels in a class. You both made valid character creation choices and should be happy with what you did.

b) People aren't nearly as selective, exclusive (i.e. *****y) as you'd think from coming to these boards. I've never ever seen anyone go "Oh, no don't invite him, we don't need a full rogue, find someone with only 2 levels of rogue instead." or anything even remotely similar to that. Most of the time, people just get invited to groups. Sure, to a degree, people tend to feel like they have to have a healer and a tank, but that's generally about it.

c) Rogues do way more than disarm traps and open locks. So stop looking to those two things to make your feel like you have a valid and useful character. So long as you think those are the only two things you bring to the party you'll always be disappointed. Quests should not be designed to require someone to disarm traps and/or open locks. Just like they shouldn't be designed to require any other specific classes. Adding optional chests behind traps and/or locks is the best thing the devs can do on this level to encourage the inclusion of rogues.

d) All of the above said, Rogues sure could use a few specific changes to the game.

1. A way to sneak attack undead and/or constructs. This could be a feat, an enhancement or a magic weapon; it doesn't really matter much.
2. More skills. And more (powerful) uses for existing skills.
3. The ability to take any bonus feat in place of their 10th-level+ special abilities.
4. Real prestige classes.

[Aspenor]

I would argue that the devs have given rogues some love, for example, in the Desecrated Temple of Vol it's definitely handy to have a rogue to unlock the door allowing entrance to the shield chest.

[Olaff]

Yeah - I think rogues definitely have a place. Paladins and Rangers, now those are useless classes.

[Aesop]

d) All of the above said, Rogues sure could use a few specific changes to the game.

1. A way to sneak attack undead and/or constructs. This could be a feat, an enhancement or a magic weapon; it doesn't really matter much.
   
   Cleric Spell from the Complete Adventurer... just up it a level give it a duration and there ya go... called Grave Strike (there is one for Constructs and Plants as well arcane and druid respectively)
   
   
2. More skills. And more (powerful) uses for existing skills.
   
   Climb
   Sleight of Hand
   and the ability to sabotage and set traps would be my first choices
   
   
3. The ability to take any bonus feat in place of their 10th-level+ special abilities.
   
   All though I don't think you can take it as a Feat yet... new WDA list the ability to choose what you take at least
   
4. Real prestige classes.
   
   Can I get a HELL YEAH?
   

Aesop


ps I occassionallly see at least one guy on Argo that refuses to take Rogues... his LFM have never had a rogue listing even once that I've ever seen... even for quests that really could use a rogue... Needless to say he's on my black list... As I love my Hybrid Rogue

[llevenbaxx]

Rogues need love but I don't know what you can give them that will make any difference. Having 2 levels of rogue is still about as good as having 14 levels of rogue.

This just isnt true. If all you want is the trapsmith abilities, then yes 2 levels of rogue is enough to pick those abilities up. Still though your build has to be very dedicated to the trap line, making any other sacrifices to put everything they can into it.

Have a character with 3 levels of rogue and one with 10 levels of rogue. The one with 3 is a slightly better trapsmith because he sacrificed more. This isnt every other MMO where pure class is the end all be all of what you are(thank the lord). If you build a character to be a trapsmith, he is a trapsmith, no matter what else he can do. /broken record off

[Vinos]

This just isnt true. If all you want is the trapsmith abilities, then yes 2 levels of rogue is enough to pick those abilities up. Still though your build has to be very dedicated to the trap line, making any other sacrifices to put everything they can into it.

Have a character with 3 levels of rogue and one with 10 levels of rogue. The one with 3 is a slightly better trapsmith because he sacrificed more. This isnt every other MMO where pure class is the end all be all of what you are(thank the lord). If you build a character to be a trapsmith, he is a trapsmith, no matter what else he can do. /broken record off

What else does it give you? A mean sneak attack? That is easily compensated for by taking fighter levels and given the speed in which casters and fighters drop mobs anyway. Improved evasion is nice though so I'll give you that.

[MysticTheurge]

Cleric Spell from the Complete Adventurer... just up it a level give it a duration and there ya go... called Grave Strike (there is one for Constructs and Plants as well arcane and druid respectively)

The only problem with those is that they are, I believe I'm remembering correctly, self-only. Meaning you have to have some levels in cleric/wizard/sorcerer/bard/druid/whatever to benefit from them.

It might necessarily be a bad thing and would encourage some alternative builds, but I think it wouldn't quite fit what I think the game actually needs, which is a way for rogues to more readily benefit from their sneak attacks in undead-heavy or construct-heavy quests (of which DDO has quite the preponderance) without being forced to multiclass.

So maybe just make the spell not self-only. Or maybe add an enhancement line that gives 20//40/60% chance, but add the spell too (for 100% chance) and make it self-only.

I'm sure they can come up with something.

[Dariun]

Improved evasion is nice though so I'll give you that.

That's pretty much it (IMO). So, you can go 2 levels of rogue, or 10 levels of rogue. Don't see much of a benefit to doing more than 10.

[llevenbaxx]

What else does it give you? A mean sneak attack? That is easily compensated for by taking fighter levels and given the speed in which casters and fighters drop mobs anyway. Improved evasion is nice though so I'll give you that.

What else do you want? This is a combat game. Thats basically all D&D ever offered-combat, role-playing and strategy. DDO only offers two of these, roleplaying will never be big in MMOs. They have imho given rogues(really any class at all) the ability to be affective in combat if they build the character accordingly.

The game should not have glaring reasons to stay pure-class any more than they do to go MC. Im afraid kinda what they will do at level 20, as I imagine there will be a lot cries for "why did I bother staying PC for all this time"? If the enhancements and class feats arent enough, then I would ask the same question.

When I play my rog10/ftr3/barb1 I could care less if ppl want to run through traps, I only do them for xp bonus if im running with non-capped characters. Why? because I can self buff my str to 32 if needed, sneak around the mob and kill casters in seconds flat. I sacrificed some abilities for others but weighed the pros and cons and am happy with the character. Dont get me wrong I can do traps but Im just as inclined to run around them if everyone else does.

I kinda like it this way. Building characters to do whatever you want them to.

[Laith]

So, you can go 2 levels of rogue, or 10 levels of rogue. Don't see much of a benefit to doing more than 10.

when slippery mind and defensive roll come around in addition to improved evasion, there may be a better argument

with the new "choose rogue abilities like feats" setup, i'm sure there will be more new options than just Skill Mastery

[MysticTheurge]

with the new "choose rogue abilities like feats" setup, i'm sure there will be more new options than just Skill Mastery

Eladrin even says he's trying to get them in Mod 6.

[Dane_McArdy]

...and why would you put traps in the pre-raid that cannot be disarmed?

Sometimes a trap can't be disarmed, but can be turned off. And those are the ones where a rogue comes in handy, as evasion will help them get through the trap alive.

[AEschyl]

Yeah - I think rogues definitely have a place. Paladins and Rangers, now those are useless classes.

um.. excuse me?

[Cowdenicus]

um.. excuse me?

The only thing more useless than a pally or a ranger is a pally/ranger.

[MysticTheurge]

The only thing more useless than a pally or a ranger is a pally/ranger.

Or a cleric.