Please quit ignoring the Rogue class

[Tavian]

You started with Mod three, then proceeded to four and now five with screwing the Rogue class out of participating in the three new raids. You make the preraids and raids so that a Rogue is never needed. I love playing my Rogue. It is my main character, but I have to constantly fight to be included in any preraids or raids. The Dragon and Titan were nice because the class was needed. Please, please, please quit ignoring this class when making the preraids and raids. At this rate the only way I will get to see the Abbot raid is when I can solo it.

[Crabo]

You started with Mod three, then proceeded to four and now five with screwing the Rogue class out of participating in the three new raids. You make the preraids and raids so that a Rogue is never needed. I love playing my Rogue. It is my main character, but I have to constantly fight to be included in any preraids or raids. The Dragon and Titan were nice because the class was needed. Please, please, please quit ignoring this class when making the preraids and raids. At this rate the only way I will get to see the Abbot raid is when I can solo it.

Yes i agree here. Take some of the goodness from the slasher trap in von5 and spread it around.

[borgec]

...and why would you put traps in the pre-raid that cannot be disarmed?

[Borror0]

...and why would you put traps in the pre-raid that cannot be disarmed?

It can, just pull the lever at the end.

[JelloMold]

I would have looked at this earlier but I've been ignoring the please don't ignore the rogue threads.

...um, I agree

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

With respect, I would disagree with the OP.

Out of the four sigil quests in the Orchard, two of them require a rogue to (effectively) get the shield chest (one is disarming the traps in Fleshmaker, and the other is opening the locked door in Vol).

In addition - the Cursed Crypt has an optional chest that requires a rogue to reach, and one of the new Tomb quests has several traps that, admittedly can be bypassed, but really benefit from having a rogue.

I would say that, on average, compared with other mods - mod5 has been pretty generous to rogues. What the devs are doing is making it so you can still complete a quest without a rogue, but by having one in your group, you stand to benefit considerably.

Garth

[Dane_McArdy]

...and why would you put traps in the pre-raid that cannot be disarmed?

Sometimes a trap can't be disarmed, but can be turned off. And those are the ones where a rogue comes in handy, as evasion will help them get through the trap alive.

[Treerat]

1) Traps don't adjust to the character going through them.
Since traps don't dole out enough pain to threaten the 300+ hp melees, most people think nothing of running through traps and just healing up. Since people don't wait, they see little reason to "waste time" disabling a trap once XP stops holding serious meaning to them.

Cure: Make at least some traps (which ones being random) do a percent of the victims hitpoints in damage rather than a set amount. Also add traps that replace damage with other nasty effects - traps that force the group to split up, force the group into much longer and more difficult paths, traps that do things like strip or suppress buffs (mid-fight), etc.

2) Too much money.
One of the uses for traps is to drain resources from the group thus making encounters further into the dungeon harder. DDO suffers from too much money, which makes it possible for people to think nothing of downing 50+ potions, a CSW wand, or a heal scroll to fix trap damage.

Cure: Make traps that do damage that can't be healed via scroll, wand, potion, or death (or other means that can funded via in-game money). Make traps that replace easily repairable damage with large losses of time (see 1).

3) Few required skills to handle a rogue's "role" as most groups define it.
Really only three skills from the rogue list are absolutely needed; Disable Device, Search, and Open Locks. When was the last time failing to pick a lock caused something truly nasty to happen? For example; imagine if failing to pick the locks in the last room of VoN5 caused blade traps to spring to life on the ledge where groups typically wait?

Cure: Randomize trap locations & type, the distance between the business end of the trap and the trigger, and the control boxes location. Make trap boxes that are locked and have to be picked/ knocked before the trap can be disarmed. Place trap boxes and disabling-triggers in areas that require skills such as tumble, jump, intimidate/diplomacy/bluff to get to. In short, put in traps (and other non-monster encounters) that aren't a matter of "search here, target box, move into range, hit disarm."

4) ****-poor melee's who are totally self-centered.
When was the last time you ran with a Fighter or Barbarian who used Intimidate constantly throughout a dungeon; a paladin with Divine Righteousness; a Warforged tank with Brute Fighting? How about a melee that worried more about keeping aggro than getting that last blow so much that they would stop fighting a monster to run over to a caster under attack to use Trip or Intimidate?

Regrettably, those are the sort of skills the developers seem to have assumed would be standard for most melees. What this means is that now instead of tanks building threat faster than they do damage or locking a monsters attention for 6 seconds out of 10, they only build as fast as they do damage. Now considering that someone with 10+ levels of rogue is dealing 5d6 sneak attack damage on top of whatever else they do, and that most rogues seem to be two-weapon users (and thus attack more often), the rogue finds himself in a catch 22 situation. Give the melee enough time to build up a lot of aggro and the monster can easily be dead before the rogue can get to it. If the rogue attacks after just one or two hits, they'll rapidly out-pace the tank in threat generation and then things get bad (no sneak attack & monster wants rogue pancakes).

Cure: FIIK (__ If I Know). If someone can come up with an effective cure for people who ignore group-based skills in favor of useless or self-centered skills let me know. You'll have a good start to curing 50% of the worlds problems (the other 50% requires mass-sterilization of humanity). Sure they could add more (or improve existing) threat-modifiers, but do we really want the rogue paying in AP to offset the melee whose only concern is "kills kills kills"?

[Kargon]

Sound to Kargon like are simple solutimion so usiming rogues can save time but not are requiremermered.

Traps of Crippling. Maybe some trapsmith finamally figure out than rather than make huge blunt butt pokaming spikes, should make shortermer sharp spikes that hurt party membamers feet for certain amount of time (1 min? 3?5?), especiamally if are no spells to remove it quicklamally.

That way take less time to disarm silly trap than run through it and heal aftermawards.

Besides, Kargon like pain.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Sound to Kargon like are simple solutimion so usiming rogues can save time but not are requiremermered.

[snip]

Besides, Kargon like pain.

Garth going to tell Kargon that there is tasty ham in hole and let Kargon run on and stick his head in the trap. If Kargon's head immune to fireball, I'm sure Kargon's head immune to traps too.

Garth

[SableShadow]

I don't actually think the class is being ignored; the changes to "of Deception" weapons, and the creation of the "Subtle Backstabber" enhancement and similar weapons are two clearly 'rogue love' acts.

It has, however, taken some prompting and suggestions on our parts to get these things. And, yes, I was a tad annoyed to get 'undead heavy' quests with Mod 5...note, however, the effort to include living critters in otherwise undead quests. To me, this shows that attention is being paid to the class even in these quests.

Something to help with undead/constructs/elementals would be nice....maybe an enhancement or feat that gives 1/2 sneak attack damage against such would be in line. Not every rogue can afford the kind of gear some of us have (greater undead/construct/elemental bane, dual banishers/smiters/disruptors). And, of course, I think MT and Aesop's comments are spot on...just need more useful things to do with the skill (ranks) we have.

I don't see changes to the difficulties or lethalities of traps as being the answer.

[reziel_deadshot]

You started with Mod three, then proceeded to four and now five with screwing the Rogue class out of participating in the three new raids. You make the preraids and raids so that a Rogue is never needed. I love playing my Rogue. It is my main character, but I have to constantly fight to be included in any preraids or raids. The Dragon and Titan were nice because the class was needed. Please, please, please quit ignoring this class when making the preraids and raids. At this rate the only way I will get to see the Abbot raid is when I can solo it.

lol sorry but you dont need a rogue for any of the pre raids..in my guild we completly skip the green side of the tunnel and do purple only, and we go onto the titan raid...no rogue needed

dragon pre raid...on normal trap does maybe 5opts of damage...just run right through it, and my tank with 2 levels of rogue can unlock any door

sorry lol rogues not needed in any quest except cabal chest...thats like a 60 DC...pain in the ....well you get the idea..

[Yajerman01]

lol sorry but you dont need a rogue for any of the pre raids..in my guild we completly skip the green side of the tunnel and do purple only, and we go onto the titan raid...no rogue needed

dragon pre raid...on normal trap does maybe 5opts of damage...just run right through it, and my tank with 2 levels of rogue can unlock any door

sorry lol rogues not needed in any quest except cabal chest...thats like a 60 DC...pain in the ....well you get the idea..

the DC is 61 on elite. Your tank on von 5 normal, i agree in part, but your dead meat on elite! And your tank cannot unlock any door.

I am surprised that you took the time to write a song, you must really loath Rogues. A good and properly built rogue can do anything your tank can do, and more! I laugh at your narrow perception of rogues.

You keep that belief - I love to hear such negatory comments, its people like you that make me cherrish my rogue that much more!

[reziel_deadshot]

the DC is 61 on elite. Your tank on von 5 normal, i agree in part, but your dead meat on elite! And your tank cannot unlock any door.

I am surprised that you took the time to write a song, you must really loath Rogues. A good and properly built rogue can do anything your tank can do, and more! I laugh at your narrow perception of rogues.

You keep that belief - I love to hear such negatory comments, its people like you that make me cherrish my rogue that much more!

umm first, my tank can open any chest/door on elite, seeing how the majority are only 50ish DC's with the exception of the cabal trap,

as for the dragon raid von5

A) why would u run it on elite (von5) other then once? not like it gives any loot worth keeping.

B) the traps still are worthless, any of the clerics in my guild can survive the traps on elite, and if they don't i just raise them or someone in my guild does, every toon in my guild that im in can raise, we all either have A. rings of ancestors. or B. have umd and can heal, or C. well...we are clerics but thats just a silly one.

so there for, my tank on average swing non crit is about 60pts initial then when u add all of my other +'s in its pretty high as it is, on crits it is about 150ish, i doubt your rogue can do that, nor can he achieve my hit points..unless is build for that specific reason but then if thats the case you wouldn't have as high strength and/or dex. no negativity just stating the fact that well ummm...rogues are basically not needed at all. for any the quest in the game..unless the cabal chest lol, but even then so, a 13/1 ranger/rogue can achieve enough open lock to get it anyways...so i stand my point..

[Yajerman01]

umm first, my tank can open any chest/door on elite, seeing how the majority are only 50ish DC's with the exception of the cabal trap,

as for the dragon raid von5

A) why would u run it on elite (von5) other then once? not like it gives any loot worth keeping.

B) the traps still are worthless, any of the clerics in my guild can survive the traps on elite, and if they don't i just raise them or someone in my guild does, every toon in my guild that im in can raise, we all either have A. rings of ancestors. or B. have umd and can heal, or C. well...we are clerics but thats just a silly one.

so there for, my tank on average swing non crit is about 60pts initial then when u add all of my other +'s in its pretty high as it is, on crits it is about 150ish, i doubt your rogue can do that, nor can he achieve my hit points..unless is build for that specific reason but then if thats the case you wouldn't have as high strength and/or dex. no negativity just stating the fact that well ummm...rogues are basically not needed at all. for any the quest in the game..unless the cabal chest lol, but even then so, a 13/1 ranger/rogue can achieve enough open lock to get it anyways...so i stand my point..

Yep, you never had/built a rogue, dont know much about rogues, and what knowledge you do know you believe reflects exponentially. You only strengthen a rogues argument. Why do vons 5 on elite? because its fun and a bit more challenging. Secondly - unlike the majority of people, saving mana, res scrolls and res clickies, heals, etc is something concious people foresee. So if wasting mana, res scrolls and heals is something you dont mind, good for you. I think the majority of players rather disarm traps, like in vons 5, rather then waste money time and mana.

You have no idea what my rogue can do, so go ahead, sit there and speculate. You lack the capacity of what a good rogue can do so it is pointless to engage your narrow mindedness. Most noteably you lack imagination of the game and objectivity is not in your book. And yes, my toon is dex based, 32 to be exact. he averages 45-50+ dps and crits 90-105. I can use ANY scroll and ANY wand i want - I can use ANY race required item i want - he is not twinked out, yet i can do what your tank does and more THATS A FACT- granted i do not hit as hard and do not have as many hit points - but i dont care because I in fact have the greater survivability. Your just a pot drinking, mana sponging, cleric needy tank with a splash of rogue.

I still laugh at you and the fact that you made such an effort to flame troll this post and more to the fact that you actually sat there and altered a U2 song, im sorry that you spent so much time on that. wow! what a chud!

If I was ever to run cabal for that specific reason - id jump in loot, the chest and get out before death, give an emote gesture, never disable the trap, laugh at you and leave.

Flame on!

[QuantumFX]

I still laugh at you and the fact that you made such an effort to flame troll this post and more to the fact that you actually sat there and altered a U2 song, im sorry that you spent so much time on that. wow! what a chud!

First, I'm the one who parodied U2. If that makes me a troll then I'm sorry that your internal sarcasm detector is on the blink.

Second, I love the rogue class and feel that the developers keep taking the rogue down the wrong track. Yes they are able to be trapsmiths. But we don't need higher Search/Disable DCs to make this a fact. I see the skill mastery ability as an excuse for Rocking Dead to make yet another stupid high DC trap that fully trap specced rogues won't be able to find but a 2 Rogue/14 Wizard Will be able to find. I'd rather see rogues stand out as trapsmith by speed rather than by skill level. It would also help if a rogue didn't have to spend all their APs to handle all the high end traps in this game.

[Hvymetal]

my tank on average swing non crit is about 60pts initial then when u add all of my other +'s in its pretty high as it is, on crits it is about 150ish, i doubt your rogue can do that, nor can he achieve my hit points..unless is build for that specific reason but then if thats the case you wouldn't have as high strength and/or dex. no negativity just stating the fact that well ummm...rogues are basically not needed at all. for any the quest in the game..unless the cabal chest lol, but even then so, a 13/1 ranger/rogue can achieve enough open lock to get it anyways...so i stand my point..

Never seen a str based rogue have you? But please keep your narrow view it is yours cherish it.... Whats your evasion builds ref save sitting at anyways?