Please quit ignoring the Rogue class

[SableShadow]

See now your talking about stuff that doesn't fit the world. I just made a simple example of what would give rogues more incentive to stay pure. Turbine has already made up rules. I just mentioned something that would fit into the game mechanics. As it stand a pure rogue is not needed. They can do traps, but so can a 1rogue/anything else, and still being more useful to the party.

The party doesn't need your critical strike, learn to build a character and slippery mind (if it gets implemented) would only be useful on a 1, skill mastery +1 what a joke.

These abilities are hardly worth staying pure.

What I suggested was not far fetched. It lets rogues focus their enhancements and feats in combat without gimping the trapsmithing ability.

This is an mmo base on dnd. Dnd it is not.

Disagree, luv, and agree. You're focusing on the class as a trapmonkey; it is not that in D&D, and not in DDO.

*Crippling* Strike is handy; this is a debuff, and as anyone who's played MMOs knows, properly applied debuffs and buffs beat healing in the endgame. Should extend to constructs/eles/undead/raid bosses for a cost in enhancements/feats, but regardless, it's quite handy. DDO just doesn't have the feedback mechanism so that folks can *see* what it is actually doing.

+1 though...yah, that's a bit little. Call it +3 and it becomes a must have; +1 is kinda...just there.

All that said, dropping the search time or disable time a bit would be kinda nice....DDO is a very action game, can't see anyone complaining about that really. No need to redo the skills, just cut the time a little. Look at the response to diplomacy when the animation was cut, for instance.

[wiglin]

Rogues are so more than trapmonkeys in ddo, but their not trapmonkey skills are not used in ddo. Their combat is dependent on the mob being subject to sneak attacks.

What I was suggesting was a way for rogues to maintain trapmonkey skills while still being effective in combat. As it stands to be able to get every trap in the game a rogue has to invest heavily into enhancements and feats.

I know what I said was a little far fetched as far as moving away from the rules of dnd are concerned, but alot of what makes a rogue awesome isn't used in the real time not interactive npc game that is ddo.

[Seneca_Windforge]

Rogues are so more than trapmonkeys in ddo, but their not trapmonkey skills are not used in ddo. Their combat is dependent on the mob being subject to sneak attacks.

What I was suggesting was a way for rogues to maintain trapmonkey skills while still being effective in combat. As it stands to be able to get every trap in the game a rogue has to invest heavily into enhancements and feats.

I know what I said was a little far fetched as far as moving away from the rules of dnd are concerned, but alot of what makes a rogue awesome isn't used in the real time not interactive npc game that is ddo.

I have a relatively pure rogue who is great in combat (he has two levels of ranger, and all the rest of his levels will be rogue). He's a dwarf who's got a lot of hit points and axe enhancements, a good strength, plus sneak attack on top of that. Even without sneak attack, his damage is considerable and he's tough enough to survive lots of melee fights. Rogues can be good in combat -- the problem is that everyone seems to like building useless squishy skill rogues which aren't good for anything outside of traps and UMD.

If you specialize to get that stupid Cabal elite trap, you'll pay for it by being subpar everywhere else. I don't think it's is a good idea. If you want to specialize in traps to the point where you can't do much else, don't complain when you can't hold your own in a fight.

[MysticTheurge]

Their combat is dependent on the mob being subject to sneak attacks.

What I was suggesting was a way for rogues to maintain trapmonkey skills while still being effective in combat.

The first statement is quite accurate, but the second statement falls short. Rogues are quite capable of maintaining their trap-related skills while also being effective in combat. Pure rogues are the most able to do this, since they've got access to the most skill points and enhancements to make up for shortcomings in other areas.

But, I fail to see, honestly, how your change would even make them more effective in combat that they already are. As you admit, their combat abilities are highly dependent on the enemies being subject to sneak attacks. Your proposal does nothing to change that.

Adding a method by which you can sneak attack undead and constructs, on the other hand, would go a very long way to ensuring that pure rogues are combat-capable more widely throughout the game. Be it spell (readily available in scroll or wand form), weapon enchantment, rogue enhancement or pretty much any other method, this simple addition would go light years toward making rogues more effective in a large number of quests.

Or you know, just go to more 4th edition-like rules where Zombies, at least but one guesses most undead, are subject to critical hits, and thus, one assumes, sneak attacks:

The new zombie is a brute with just enough reasoning power to know who to kill. It’s easy to hit—zombies don’t dodge—but it’s rotten body just soaks up blows that would kill a living creature. You had better be hitting the zombie hard every time, or it’ll just keep coming. If you manage to hit it really hard, say with a critical hit or a power that deals hefty damage, you might just take the creep out in one fell swing.

That’s right. I did say, “critical hit.” The zombie is vulnerable to that now, which is sweeter than a head shot in any zombie flick.

[Xyfiel]

Might just be me, but they fix the issue with Evasion then announce the fix to Rogue special abilities and there is still complaining. I believe most of the complainers are going to complain regardless what is done.

There are only a few things left in the game mechanics which need to be changed for Rogues and they are not exclusive to Rogues.

1) Touch attacks so dex based characters take less damage
Don't see this being changed anytime soon.

2) Skills becoming more useful all around
This should be a whole minimod or something. This helps all characters, but helps Rogues/Bards the most.

Benefit of pure Rogue over 2-3 Rogue
More sneak attack
3 special abilities or extra feats
Skill points
Higher enhancements including specialty
Trap sense/imp uncanny dodge

With the exception of skill usefulness, everything else is same as PnP.

Quests should not require a Rogue so Rogues get parties.
Quests should require a trapsmith/door unlocker for optionals
Quests should have optionals based on skills; talking, jumping, swimming, etc...

Then Rogues would be desired because if you want those extra chests/take the shortcut, the Rogue probably has the skill you need.

Pure Rogues are not the most versatile Jack of all trades in this game. That goes to a mc rogue/wizard.

[MysticTheurge]

There are only a few things left in the game mechanics which need to be changed for Rogues and they are not exclusive to Rogues.

1) Touch attacks so dex based characters take less damage
Don't see this being changed anytime soon.

2) Skills becoming more useful all around
This should be a whole minimod or something. This helps all characters, but helps Rogues/Bards the most.

3) Allow any bonus feat to be taken in place of a 10/13/16/19 ability.

[Xyfiel]

Maybe I misread, thought he said he was working on that?

[QuantumFX]

Maybe I misread, thought he said he was working on that?

Eladrin stated that they're like ranger favored enemies and that they could only be respecced for another rogue special ability.

[Emili]

I do not agree with the OP's opinion. I do not like the idea of forcing any quest to require any particular class... that is not what DnD is about.

As for the suggestions to spike up rogues? Why? Why should sneak attack be available for rogues to deal with undead? All melee of all kind take a backseat to undead in some way... it is the way DnD is. Some monsters are different to deal with on some classes then others. So if you add sneak attack ability agains undead what next golem? What about the other melee should they allow them to gain damage advantages also - a crit undead enhancement? You're defeating the purpose of the monster's challenge. I know plenty of well rounded well played rogues who are very effective players in any and every quest, undead infested ones too.

[Snike]

If trap smithing made running a quest faster instead of slower, I would be happy.

[Mercules]

I don't believe the Developers are ignoring Rogues. Rogues have had several nice boosts lately.

1. Enhancements... Way of the X and others.
2. Changes to weapon abilities, Deception is now a GREAT addition for any Rogue allowing a few extra sneak attacks.
3. The Rocking Dead's traps, which have started to harm the party in areas other than their HP bar.

The people I see ignoring Rogues are the players. It appears, from experience, that unless they know you a lot of people are reluctant to trust your Rogue's build and your experience. This happens at all levels from my experience.

Level 1Barb/11Rogue. We finish one quest from Mod 5 and I get asked if I can "Do the door." Which door? Well, "The" door. I believe I have done that one, just to be sure we are talking about the same one, do you know what needs to be hit to get it? They rattle off a number and I do some quick math, clarify if that is with or without the d20 added and then announce I can do that with a half-way decent roll(meaning better than 10). They start looking for another Rogue.

At this point I am getting a bit irritated. I've told them I can do it and they just watched me Spot, Search, and Disarm all the traps as well as help out with healing. The other Rogue joins and they start asking her questions about her Open Locks skill. She adds everything up and is 2 points less than my character so the jerk party leader says, "You are the weakest link, goodbye." in an annoying tone and kicks her.

I say some less than polite things and quit the group and then send a /tell to the fellow Rogue apologizing for the situation. She lets me know the leader then offered her a place in the party and she told him to take a leap. Oops... lost two people who could have "Done the door".

He was basically shopping around for the best Open Locks skill and then was going to drop whomever wasn't highest since obviously two Rogues would be unneeded in a group.

Opposite end of the level range. 1Rogue/2Cleric in a group. "We will want a Rogue for Redfang." I pipe up, "I am a Rogue, I can handle all the traps in there." Leader ignores me and finds a "Rogue" with 2 levels of Rogue and 1 of Paladin who promptly announces to the group that his Rogue levels are for Evasion and UMD we will need a real Rogue. Leader decides to let me "Try" and then notices we can do it on Hard. "Maybe we should see if Andronikos can handle the traps on Normal first." My answer, "Um... I've already solo'd it on Normal."

[Aesop]

I don't believe the Developers are ignoring Rogues. Rogues have had several nice boosts lately.

1. Enhancements... Way of the X and others.
2. Changes to weapon abilities, Deception is now a GREAT addition for any Rogue allowing a few extra sneak attacks.
3. The Rocking Dead's traps, which have started to harm the party in areas other than their HP bar.

The people I see ignoring Rogues are the players. It appears, from experience, that unless they know you a lot of people are reluctant to trust your Rogue's build and your experience. This happens at all levels from my experience.

Level 1Barb/11Rogue. We finish one quest from Mod 5 and I get asked if I can "Do the door." Which door? Well, "The" door. I believe I have done that one, just to be sure we are talking about the same one, do you know what needs to be hit to get it? They rattle off a number and I do some quick math, clarify if that is with or without the d20 added and then announce I can do that with a half-way decent roll(meaning better than 10). They start looking for another Rogue.

At this point I am getting a bit irritated. I've told them I can do it and they just watched me Spot, Search, and Disarm all the traps as well as help out with healing. The other Rogue joins and they start asking her questions about her Open Locks skill. She adds everything up and is 2 points less than my character so the jerk party leader says, "You are the weakest link, goodbye." in an annoying tone and kicks her.

I say some less than polite things and quit the group and then send a /tell to the fellow Rogue apologizing for the situation. She lets me know the leader then offered her a place in the party and she told him to take a leap. Oops... lost two people who could have "Done the door".

He was basically shopping around for the best Open Locks skill and then was going to drop whomever wasn't highest since obviously two Rogues would be unneeded in a group.

Opposite end of the level range. 1Rogue/2Cleric in a group. "We will want a Rogue for Redfang." I pipe up, "I am a Rogue, I can handle all the traps in there." Leader ignores me and finds a "Rogue" with 2 levels of Rogue and 1 of Paladin who promptly announces to the group that his Rogue levels are for Evasion and UMD we will need a real Rogue. Leader decides to let me "Try" and then notices we can do it on Hard. "Maybe we should see if Andronikos can handle the traps on Normal first." My answer, "Um... I've already solo'd it on Normal."

I'm in agreement with ya Merc. People do not understand rogues. THe guy on Argo that even when a Rogue would be a useful (nearly necessary) addition to the party doesn't put up an LFM that includes one doesn't get what a Rogue can do. People who insist that they'd rather have 3 fighters than 1 Fighter and 2 rogues really don't understand what a rogue can do. People who believe that only a PUre Rogue can get the job done or who think that Pure Rogues are weak don't get it. Rogues are good additions to every party whether they are Pure or not, whether there are traps or locks or not, whether its an undead quest or a Sneak attackers wet dream... rogues are very good and can be very useful in a party.

Would I complain if they added in a bunch of the stuff from the Complete Adventurer? Heck no... please do.

Would I like to see more usefulness added to skills... absolutely.

Would I like enhancments that added sneak attack to undead... not really. It would be nice if they added the spells in but I don't want it to be enhancments... enhancements should add flavor and help a rogue close a few gaps in the build not redefine abilities.

Aesop

[Mercules]

Would I complain if they added in a bunch of the stuff from the Complete Adventurer? Heck no... please do.

Would I like to see more usefulness added to skills... absolutely.

Would I like enhancments that added sneak attack to undead... not really. It would be nice if they added the spells in but I don't want it to be enhancments... enhancements should add flavor and help a rogue close a few gaps in the build not redefine abilities.

Aesop

Making more skills more useful would go a long way. Suddenly splash Rogues would be able to do traps fine, but lack in areas even their primary class could be good at. Say like a Rog2/Rng12 missing out on Move Silently and Hide in Shadows if those skills were useful. Maybe Repair being needed for a few optionals where it allowed you to "fix" an elevator or door level to access another area. This wouldn't limit it to Rogues either since numerous classes can pick up various skills, but Rogues are very skillful and could have a broad range of skills to cover most areas.

[Venar]

Well, mister rogues, at least you guys have raid loot. Each Raid has at least if not 2 or even 3 items that benefits rogue. And sicne we usually have 1 around, guess who gets them?
Hide, sneak, DD, OL, Spot, Search items. Dex items. Bows. Off-hand weapons. Piecrcers, etc...

Ask a sorcerer how many Raid items are there for them.

[Master_of_None]

After reading these and thinking about the issue, my thoughts have changed a little bit. What people say is true: a well-played rogue is very versatile and useful. I don't know why it is that people will take a chance on a fighter or sorceror they don't know, but not a rogue they don't know. I suspect it's the perception that a rogue is defined by very clear, succeed-or-fail marks in their abilities (such that people ask about their OL or DD skills before inviting them), and other classes can't be quantified so easily (anyone ever ask a barb or sorc, "What's your DPS?" before inviting them? Though I hear some people ask about weapons or spells before inviting, so maybe it's the same thing). Maybe the devs can't do much to change that, though given how the early prejudice against warforged has mostly disappeared, they probably could do something about it if they tried.

Anyway, without further ado, here's NoDriz the Cheerful's 3-point plan:
1) Reduce/eliminate the search and DD animation times. If it didn't take so long, people would be more willing to wait. I don't see what the extra seconds add to the game.
2) Add more timesavers that rogues can access: traps that slow the party down, traps that separate the party, locked doors that lead to a shortcut. I have no problem with making them knockable, or having a key later in the dungeon (when it no longer saves you time). Any reasonable DC will be nearly impossible for a mage to knock anyway. Just don't make these alternate routes cost the party a chest, like in Cabal for One. No one will ever take a rogue to get less loot, only more.
3) Give rogues some way to sneak attack constructs and undead. I'd prefer an enhancement, spell, or weapon enhancement rather than a feat, but give us something. I no longer care what level enhancement. A character that splashes rogue isn't getting most of their damage from SA anyway, so they probably don't care. Emili, I see your point that the damage output of every class suffers against mobs that are immune to crits, but not to the same extent.

Typical fighter/barb/paladin/strength ranger: +8-15 from strength (conservative estimate) doesn't go away, +3d6 greater bane damage doesn't go away, +5 or +10 from power attack doesn't go away, X3 from crits does go away. Result: +13-25 str/PA and 3d6 on every hit

NoDriz the Cheerful: +3 str bonus doesn't go away, con damage from puncturers is useless so replace with 3d6 greater bane, lose 6d6 SA damage (average about 21 with unloaded dice, 24 for pure rogue with 7d6 SA), lose X2 crits. Results: +3 and 3d6 on every hit (best case, I don't have greater construct banes)

My point is while everyone loses the crit damage, I also lose 20+ damage on each hit from no SA, and other melee classes don't have a comparable loss. Even getting 50% of SA damage on undead and constructs would be something, I'm not greedy.

Would this mean there would suddenly be a bunch of LFMs for Ghosts of Perdition on Thelanis that asked for rogues? Maybe not, but I'm perfectly willing to admit that part of my trouble finding groups is A) not being in a guild at the moment and 2) not starting my own groups for the new quests, as I don't know them very well and would rather not be the leader my first time through. At some point player reputation and guilded status has a lot to do with it, but the devs could do something to encourage groups to take rogues they don't know yet.

[llevenbaxx]

Well, mister rogues, at least you guys have raid loot. Each Raid has at least if not 2 or even 3 items that benefits rogue. And sicne we usually have 1 around, guess who gets them?
Hide, sneak, DD, OL, Spot, Search items. Dex items. Bows. Off-hand weapons. Piecrcers, etc...

Ask a sorcerer how many Raid items are there for them.

LOL how many pieces of raid loot does a sorc need to dominate the game?

Ask the same of a rogue.

Some classes are just not as gear dependant overall. They imo have well compensated the sorcys.

[Hvymetal]

Well, mister rogues, at least you guys have raid loot. Each Raid has at least if not 2 or even 3 items that benefits rogue. And sicne we usually have 1 around, guess who gets them?
Hide, sneak, DD, OL, Spot, Search items. Dex items. Bows. Off-hand weapons. Piecrcers, etc...

Ask a sorcerer how many Raid items are there for them.

Aye also lets take a look here at this expansive list of "rogue" items.....

Hide/Sneak benifits wizs, sorcs, bards, rangers, rogues or anyone else that sometimes thinks beyond the "standard" way of handling things.

Spot items now usefull for anyone and a non-issue for rogues before since a majority of us knew where the boxes or had to tell all the idiots to stop jumping up and down in front of a box so that we could get to it without having to tab through half the party.

Dex items also usefull for almost any class.

Bows meh, not really a anybody item except a subset of the current player base which includes rogues, rangers, fighters and a smattering of other classes. (Not to denigrate ranged combat I would love to see new bows added but as it stands not a very popular item)

Off hand weapons are usefull to any TWF build of which all rogues are not.

Piercers also helpfull for any class specced for piercers up to and including Barbs and Sorcs.

Ect.....

[Emili]

Making more skills more useful would go a long way. Suddenly splash Rogues would be able to do traps fine, but lack in areas even their primary class could be good at. Say like a Rog2/Rng12 missing out on Move Silently and Hide in Shadows if those skills were useful. Maybe Repair being needed for a few optionals where it allowed you to "fix" an elevator or door level to access another area. This wouldn't limit it to Rogues either since numerous classes can pick up various skills, but Rogues are very skillful and could have a broad range of skills to cover most areas.

My Misbehaven (rng/rog), Ambyre (rng), Rosewood (bard), etc... can sneak by everything in GH, the desert, the orchard. In fact my fighters can sneak by most things in the orchard. Not only that the stealthy builds Misbehaven, Ambyre, Rosewood senak by many mobs in elite quests.

1. There have been many times I've snuck up retieved fallen comrades from hordes of mob they were too unlucky to agro and carried themback to a safer area to res them...
   
2. there were many times while soloing I snuck past the trash mobs as I did not wish to waste the time effort or resources on them...
   
3. there were many times while soloing on all my characters melee included where spot and listen did not help me see a mpb rogue or some other off in the near distance allowing me to react before it noticed me or for that matter before the rest of the party walked up on it to be surprised...
   

There is nothing wrong with the hide, move silent, spot or listen skills in this game.

Again, I state there is nothing terribly wrong with the rogue class in this game, they get as much love if not more then some other classes... ie.) when was the last time Turbine added a pure fighter class enhancement? What Mod 3 when they broke up so many of them? They beefed up options and added enhancement options for all classes except that one in the past two major releases - including rogues. So tell me who did turbine ignore? If they ignored the rogue well then they locked the pure fighter in the closet.

Your perception is way off if you think people do not take rogues in groups - I know I take every class who applies to mine, a perfect party need not be a melee, caster, rogue, cleric, a perfect party should not be class dependent at all. The perfect party is player dependent.

[MysticTheurge]

My Misbehaven (rng/rog), Ambyre (rng), Rosewood (bard), etc... can sneak by everything in GH, the desert, the orchard. In fact my fighters can sneak by most things in the orchard.

And my cleric can run by everything in GH, the desert and the orchard and wand-whip those for those occasional hits. Plus I get where I'm going a lot sooner.

Your other three examples are one rare occurrence and two things that are only useful when soloing. That's not exactly a rousing series of powerful applications of skills.

[Emili]

And my cleric can run by everything in GH, the desert and the orchard and wand-whip those for those occasional hits. Plus I get where I'm going a lot sooner.

And I was refering to solo or healerless here also in those situations. You can take a decently built toon of any class and solo most content - that itself to me means there is nothing wrong with the rogue class or it's abilities as compared to any other class. And yes most people run past mobs and heal up while in group big deal, so nobody scouts and prefers to waste resources... that's a managerial decision not to scout or evade mob and chock up the damages on the healing tab. Just telling you it works like it does in PnP pretty much.

Your other three examples are one rare occurrence and two things that are only useful when soloing. That's not exactly a rousing series of powerful applications of skills.

So what do you suggest they be? remain hiden even while attacking? Would seem a tad overpowering to me... or do we require areas you must sneak in a dungeon? Again that's building a class dependency into a quest. Point again is people are touting there is no love for rogues... yet I've seen plenty of love for the class.