Please quit ignoring the Rogue class

[binnsr]

To be fair, this happens to me on my Cleric a lot too. I think there's a lot of people who just don't know how the "join" part of the LFM system works.

QFT

[Raithe]

To be fair, this happens to me on my Cleric a lot too. I think there's a lot of people who just don't know how the "join" part of the LFM system works.

I often assume this... then I get the message:

Soandso has declined your request to join his party because his party is now full.

Which prompts me to create my own LFM with the description "everyone welcome," and I take the first 5 characters to apply, regardless of class.

And the quest runs just as smooth as any of the other groups I've joined.

[MysticTheurge]

I often assume this... then I get the message:

Soandso has declined your request to join his party because his party is now full.

That message is automatic.

For example, I sent someone a join request the other day, then he manually invited me (So I got the "Soandso wants you to join his party Yes/No" dialog box) then twenty minutes later when we got a sixth member in the group I got the "Soandso has declined your request to join his party because his party is now full" message even though I was in the group.

Edit - So I guess what I'm saying is that they might be adding people via other means (someone sent them a tell, they invited a guildie, etc.) and then you're getting the decline message.

[Raithe]

That message is automatic.

For example, I sent someone a join request the other day, then he manually invited me (So I got the "Soandso wants you to join his party Yes/No" dialog box) then twenty minutes later when we got a sixth member in the group I got the "Soandso has declined your request to join his party because his party is now full" message even though I was in the group.

Edit - So I guess what I'm saying is that they might be adding people via other means (someone sent them a tell, they invited a guildie, etc.) and then you're getting the decline message.

I knew that the message was automatic, but I guess I assumed that it was only sent if the last person joining was added from the "Create Group" interface.

I see now that you are right... it probably is just people inviting from outside the interface.

[MysticTheurge]

I knew that the message was automatic, but I guess I assumed that it was only sent if the last person joining was added from the "Create Group" interface.

I see now that you are right... it probably is just people inviting from outside the interface.

Honestly, what I do these days is just send a tell if I haven't gotten a response to the join message within about 30-60 seconds.

The experience I had with this the other day was:

Send join request;
wait;
wait;
wait;
Send tell to the effect of "Want a Cleric 14";
Get a response to the effect of "OMG YES!!";
wait;
wait;
Start to type a tell to the effect of "Ok, well then invite me" but don't finish;
Get an invite (but not via the LFM system).

[Aesop]

The only problem with those is that they are, I believe I'm remembering correctly, self-only. Meaning you have to have some levels in cleric/wizard/sorcerer/bard/druid/whatever to benefit from them.

It might necessarily be a bad thing and would encourage some alternative builds, but I think it wouldn't quite fit what I think the game actually needs, which is a way for rogues to more readily benefit from their sneak attacks in undead-heavy or construct-heavy quests (of which DDO has quite the preponderance) without being forced to multiclass.

So maybe just make the spell not self-only. Or maybe add an enhancement line that gives 20//40/60% chance, but add the spell too (for 100% chance) and make it self-only.

I'm sure they can come up with something.

Scrolls baby all about the Scrolls (and UMD) That's why I said kick it up a level and make it have a duration longer than 1 round (say Short) then Rogues could UMD it for 30 Second of sneak attacking undead (or whatever)

Aesop

[Aesop]

The only thing more useless than a pally or a ranger is a pally/ranger.

hey... I've made a couple of those. Everyone knows that the only useless class is Fighter

Aesop

[MysticTheurge]

Scrolls baby all about the Scrolls (and UMD) That's why I said kick it up a level and make it have a duration longer than 1 round (say Short) then Rogues could UMD it for 30 Second of sneak attacking undead (or whatever)

Oh yeah. Sometimes I forget (maybe it's wishful thinking) that consumable magic items are available in bulk in DDO.

[binnsr]

Scrolls baby all about the Scrolls (and UMD) That's why I said kick it up a level and make it have a duration longer than 1 round (say Short) then Rogues could UMD it for 30 Second of sneak attacking undead (or whatever)

Aesop

Oh yeah. Sometimes I forget (maybe it's wishful thinking) that consumable magic items are available in bulk in DDO.

Were they to introduce these spells, my rogue would be buying stock in the scroll-makers guild once more!

[Treerat]

1) Traps don't adjust to the character going through them.
Since traps don't dole out enough pain to threaten the 300+ hp melees, most people think nothing of running through traps and just healing up. Since people don't wait, they see little reason to "waste time" disabling a trap once XP stops holding serious meaning to them.

Cure: Make at least some traps (which ones being random) do a percent of the victims hitpoints in damage rather than a set amount. Also add traps that replace damage with other nasty effects - traps that force the group to split up, force the group into much longer and more difficult paths, traps that do things like strip or suppress buffs (mid-fight), etc.

2) Too much money.
One of the uses for traps is to drain resources from the group thus making encounters further into the dungeon harder. DDO suffers from too much money, which makes it possible for people to think nothing of downing 50+ potions, a CSW wand, or a heal scroll to fix trap damage.

Cure: Make traps that do damage that can't be healed via scroll, wand, potion, or death (or other means that can funded via in-game money). Make traps that replace easily repairable damage with large losses of time (see 1).

3) Few required skills to handle a rogue's "role" as most groups define it.
Really only three skills from the rogue list are absolutely needed; Disable Device, Search, and Open Locks. When was the last time failing to pick a lock caused something truly nasty to happen? For example; imagine if failing to pick the locks in the last room of VoN5 caused blade traps to spring to life on the ledge where groups typically wait?

Cure: Randomize trap locations & type, the distance between the business end of the trap and the trigger, and the control boxes location. Make trap boxes that are locked and have to be picked/ knocked before the trap can be disarmed. Place trap boxes and disabling-triggers in areas that require skills such as tumble, jump, intimidate/diplomacy/bluff to get to. In short, put in traps (and other non-monster encounters) that aren't a matter of "search here, target box, move into range, hit disarm."

4) ****-poor melee's who are totally self-centered.
When was the last time you ran with a Fighter or Barbarian who used Intimidate constantly throughout a dungeon; a paladin with Divine Righteousness; a Warforged tank with Brute Fighting? How about a melee that worried more about keeping aggro than getting that last blow so much that they would stop fighting a monster to run over to a caster under attack to use Trip or Intimidate?

Regrettably, those are the sort of skills the developers seem to have assumed would be standard for most melees. What this means is that now instead of tanks building threat faster than they do damage or locking a monsters attention for 6 seconds out of 10, they only build as fast as they do damage. Now considering that someone with 10+ levels of rogue is dealing 5d6 sneak attack damage on top of whatever else they do, and that most rogues seem to be two-weapon users (and thus attack more often), the rogue finds himself in a catch 22 situation. Give the melee enough time to build up a lot of aggro and the monster can easily be dead before the rogue can get to it. If the rogue attacks after just one or two hits, they'll rapidly out-pace the tank in threat generation and then things get bad (no sneak attack & monster wants rogue pancakes).

Cure: FIIK (__ If I Know). If someone can come up with an effective cure for people who ignore group-based skills in favor of useless or self-centered skills let me know. You'll have a good start to curing 50% of the worlds problems (the other 50% requires mass-sterilization of humanity). Sure they could add more (or improve existing) threat-modifiers, but do we really want the rogue paying in AP to offset the melee whose only concern is "kills kills kills"?

[Kargon]

Sound to Kargon like are simple solutimion so usiming rogues can save time but not are requiremermered.

Traps of Crippling. Maybe some trapsmith finamally figure out than rather than make huge blunt butt pokaming spikes, should make shortermer sharp spikes that hurt party membamers feet for certain amount of time (1 min? 3?5?), especiamally if are no spells to remove it quicklamally.

That way take less time to disarm silly trap than run through it and heal aftermawards.

Besides, Kargon like pain.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Sound to Kargon like are simple solutimion so usiming rogues can save time but not are requiremermered.

[snip]

Besides, Kargon like pain.

Garth going to tell Kargon that there is tasty ham in hole and let Kargon run on and stick his head in the trap. If Kargon's head immune to fireball, I'm sure Kargon's head immune to traps too.

Garth

[Olaff]

The only thing more useless than a pally or a ranger is a pally/ranger.

EDIT:

I should note that one of the ideas I'm working on (slowly) is a Ranger/Pally hybrid. I'm guessing at this point that she'll be 16 ranger / 4 Pally mix at level 20. Not entirely sure yet, though.

[mcduffie0514]

I have thought about this and going in and putting a majority of the end chest either with a locked chest that is too high to be knocked or either putting a highly deadly trap around it. I bet more groups will add rogues to their party because everyone really wants those end chest as opposed to all the optional ones. I have a rogue i built since beta, and i don't like being melee with her, and love staying ranged unless needed. And my favorite part of a rogue is finding the traps or unlocking the chest. I don't want to be in a party just for melee and isn't really any fun for me. Please consider revamping the quest to make more pure rogue friendly.

[Aesop]

EDIT:

I should note that one of the ideas I'm working on (slowly) is a Ranger/Pally hybrid. I'm guessing at this point that she'll be 16 ranger / 4 Pally mix at level 20. Not entirely sure yet, though.

I've got two myself

thinking Pally3 Fighter4 Ranger yes two weapon fighter

and a Rogue 1 (non trap oriented, UMD necessitated taking rogue or bard ) Pally3 and Ranger yes Archer type

Aesop

[Invalid_86]

One of the other big downsides to Rogues- inflated hit points. We get maximum hps +20 at every level, giving us a bit over double what we should have if we actually rolled by the time we hit 14th level (barring Con bonuses). Add to that the dime a dozen Con items that we keep finding and we have waaaaay to many hit points. Don't forget those Toughness enhancements while we are at it! Talk about an even bigger hole.

To keep up with that mobs get ridiculous amounts of hit points too. Sadly sneak attack damage stays the same as in PnP, meaning that relatively speaking it is only about half as effective here assuming you can use it at all. Ouch.

[Snike]

I would love to see a dugeon design that made trapsmithing optional, BUT having trapsmithing would speed up the group to final completion instead of slowing them down.

If having a rogue = an optional 25% faster to completion like having big DPS and Healing does.... rogues would be sought after like DPS roles.

[MysticTheurge]

To keep up with that mobs get ridiculous amounts of hit points too. Sadly sneak attack damage stays the same as in PnP, meaning that relatively speaking it is only about half as effective here assuming you can use it at all. Ouch.

Actually, enemy HPs are inflated to keep up with the faster pace of melee combat. Given that rogues (via sneak attacks) get as much benefit from this as anyone, I'd say this isn't really a downside.

[Invalid_86]

Actually, enemy HPs are inflated to keep up with the faster pace of melee combat. Given that rogues (via sneak attacks) get as much benefit from this as anyone, I'd say this isn't really a downside.

The faster pace technically helps both sides doesn't it?

[MysticTheurge]

The faster pace technically helps both sides doesn't it?

Most enemy attacks don't even come close to comparing to ours in terms of speed/rate.