Please quit ignoring the Rogue class

[Cowdenicus]

Dude I bet some of those posts were me Gotta take that tongue-in-cheek.

Van > Asp

[Perceval418]

What else does it give you? A mean sneak attack? That is easily compensated for by taking fighter levels and given the speed in which casters and fighters drop mobs anyway. Improved evasion is nice though so I'll give you that.

Sneak attack bonuses, improved evasion, rogue specialization enhancement, your 2nd/3rd and 4th Enchancement for Search, Disable Device, Lockpick, all but your 1st level of Rogue Action Boost. This equals about -8 to your essential rogue skills when you really dont want to blow that trap.

The most viable rogue multiclass build, if you just wanna trapsmith, is Wizard because of the high INT. Beyond that it gets harder and harder to justify multiclassing a rogue, and often it ends up that in end-game those builds cant pick the locks, find the traps or disable the traps when found.

By multiclass i should say 'splashing' rogue. A 10/2/2 Rog/X/X build is fine. But 1/2 levels of Rogue your taking a pretty big hit when you dont have a +11/+12 INT modifer.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Van > Asp

Understatement of the century. Even Jacoby Drexelhand > Asp.

[Aspenor]

Understatement of the century. Even Jacoby Drexelhand > Asp.

Mad Bombardier smells like CHEESE

[Mad_Bombardier]

Mad Bombardier smells like CHEESE

"Behold the power of CHEESE."

[Raithe]

By multiclass i should say 'splashing' rogue. A 10/2/2 Rog/X/X build is fine. But 1/2 levels of Rogue your taking a pretty big hit when you dont have a +11/+12 INT modifer.

A clericX/rogue2, with the spell find traps (and maybe prayer), can probably forego taking any sf: search or sf: spot feats and do just fine at trapsmithing, provided they are powergamers with the equipment.

A bardX/rogue2 has focusing chant, adequate skill points, reflex saves, and other self buffs via scroll to be just fine at trapsmithing, as long as they have the equipment.

A rangerX/rogue1 with a fairly high int and power gamer equipment while being of the appropriate race(s) can succeed as well.

The belief that being a pure rogue somehow makes you a king of trapsmithing is fallacious. The current designs for traps only separate by race and mostly by equipment level. Which is why I have seen pure rogues fail at traps time after time after time since Mod 3.

Trapsmithing should be an asset that a rogue can bring to the table. Having rogues be assets for trapsmithing has done nothing to improve their status in the game.

[Dariun]

when slippery mind and defensive roll come around in addition to improved evasion, there may be a better argument

Forgive me if I don't hold my breath.

[MysticTheurge]

Trapsmithing should be an asset that a rogue can bring to the table. Having rogues be assets for trapsmithing has done nothing to improve their status in the game.

Man it's a good thing Turbine made up and added that "Only Rogues can take Disable Device" rule or you people would really have your knickers in a twist.

[Rindalathar]

Here's a novel idea, as well.....

The devs create the dungeons in the manner they see fit. It is up to the player to make his character viable in a dungeon, not up to the dungeon to make his character viable. A smart rogue can easily find a role to take in all raids. For the abbot, rogues have UMD....heal scrolls, anybody? Backup healer? My friend Rameses has run his rogue as the primary healer for Titan and Reaver raids. Rogues can do a lot more than traps and locks.

Couldn't be more true, BUT the perception is still there. I was recently denied a space in a PUG because they didn't want a "back-up healer". I play my rogue nearly every day. Those that know me have little against grouping with me. Those that don't will not take the chance.

Like all character classes, the best rogues are those with the best gear. Problem is, since rogues are the most skill-based class, to truly shine as a versatile member of a party, you simply have to find decent gear. I find this to really come through on higher-end content. Since, I spend oodles of time shopping, trading and grinding for stuff, I finally consider myself nearly where I want to be. I really don't think many would invest the amount of time in a rogue as I do, simply because finding the gear you need numbers higher than most other classes.

[Yajerman01]

For all you peeps that dont have a 14lvl rogue and have that 2rogue12 fighter who THINK we are the same and that there is nothing different and your fighters attack makes up any difference, your wrong.

Lets see, while I get my 7d6 backstab, I range very well, my UMD is around 36 with GH, I pretty much can raise the entire crew from a wipe. My greater evasion helps by minimizing damage, my vested skills allow me to open any/all traps (except cabal on elite). The last time I blew a trap was level 9. (level 2? hah - i know you blow a trap every once in a while and then brush it off like, "it happens". Guess what, a pure rogue set up right and NEVER happens!

Dont tell me that you can disarm all the traps in the electric room on Vons 5 on elite and survive without getting heals because your a liar! However as a pure rogue can, I often enjoy dancing in the middle of the spikes!

You cant hear ****, thats why you fall through the floor in wiz king, you cant on a whim or without a special clickie just DD out of a bad area, you cant wand whip unless you severly gimp your fighter for UMD. I can out buff any tank anytime, I have plenty o scrolls to firewall, CK, BB.

I am usually the one that survives and carries the Tanks butt back to the shrine because he is so uber! I laugh when I end up raising a cleric. WHen the caster is all out of mana at the end - I am the cool guy to use a scroll of greater teleport.

Tanks cant sneak past a deaf and blind troll if their life depended on it.

I run circles around my enemies paralzying them so the tanks get minimal damage and save the clerics on mana. (another insight most people overlook)

I can diplo and intimidate better then most tanks. For all that strength most tanks cant jump worth ****.

Essentially im a back up healer, are you?
IM a back up caster, are you?
I can back up a tank proficiently?

I can boost my ac to 49 on my own, can you?

As a rogue, you become a smarter fighter because you learn of you rogues lack of pure damage, but we make up for it in every other way.

Here is some meat and grog, go kill, I will be back here making you look good!

[Cowdenicus]

For all you peeps that dont have a 14lvl rogue and have that 2rogue12 fighter who THINK we are the same and that there is nothing different and your fighters attack makes up any difference, your wrong.

Lets see, while I get my 7d6 backstab, I range very well, my UMD is around 36 with GH, I pretty much can raise the entire crew from a wipe. My greater evasion helps by minimizing damage, my vested skills allow me to open any/all traps (except cabal on elite). The last time I blew a trap was level 9. (level 2? hah - i know you blow a trap every once in a while and then brush it off like, "it happens". Guess what, a pure rogue set up right and NEVER happens!

Dont tell me that you can disarm all the traps in the electric room on Vons 5 on elite and survive without getting heals because your a liar! However as a pure rogue can, I often enjoy dancing in the middle of the spikes!

You cant hear ****, thats why you fall through the floor in wiz king, you cant on a whim or without a special clickie just DD out of a bad area, you cant wand whip unless you severly gimp your fighter for UMD. I can out buff any tank anytime, I have plenty o scrolls to firewall, CK, BB.

I am usually the one that survives and carries the Tanks butt back to the shrine because he is so uber! I laugh when I end up raising a cleric. WHen the caster is all out of mana at the end - I am the cool guy to use a scroll of greater teleport.

Tanks cant sneak past a deaf and blind troll if their life depended on it.

I run circles around my enemies paralzying them so the tanks get minimal damage and save the clerics on mana. (another insight most people overlook)

I can diplo and intimidate better then most tanks. For all that strength most tanks cant jump worth ****.

Essentially im a back up healer, are you?
IM a back up caster, are you?
I can back up a tank proficiently?

I can boost my ac to 49 on my own, can you?

As a rogue, you become a smarter fighter because you learn of you rogues lack of pure damage, but we make up for it in every other way.

Here is some meat and grog, go kill, I will be back here making you look good!

Backstab something.

[Impaqt]

Someone needs a hug....


Fact of the matter is, for every 1 or 2 Rogue/12-13 XXXX I can build a Better Pure Rogue.... and for Every 14 Rogue, I can build a Multiclass that is Better in some other ways...

to say ONE > OTHER is rediculous....

[Aspenor]

But this isn't ridiculous:
Asp > Vanash

[MysticTheurge]

But this isn't ridiculous:
Asp < Vanash

Fixed.

[Aspenor]

Fixed.

I hate you.

[Cowdenicus]

Fixed.

OMG thanks for the assist MT.

[Cowdenicus]

I hate you.

How Xoriatian of you.

If you arent careful you might get P&B.

[MysticTheurge]

I love you.

Fixed.

[Yajerman01]

Someone needs a hug....


Fact of the matter is, for every 1 or 2 Rogue/12-13 XXXX I can build a Better Pure Rogue.... and for Every 14 Rogue, I can build a Multiclass that is Better in some other ways...

to say ONE > OTHER is rediculous....

lol, no hug necessary, simply stating a FACT and in alignment with the OP. I often see an LFM up that I request an invite too, (while their listing identifies rogue needed). I then get turned down or no response at all. My rogue is far from gimp and mt persona is that of neutral.

So why do they do that? is it ignorance, or are they worried that the two tanks, two clerics and caster arent enough to run POP and that they need another tank? Well if that example is reflective of their mindsets then perhaps it is best that I do not run with them because point in fact they lack understanding of a good rogue. Perhaps they have had a bad rogue in a quest before, but havent we all run with bad toons before, whether its a cleric, caster or a tank?

Im in the belief that rogues are not given enough credit and that sub class (rogue level 2) guys think that that covers all of what a rogues is. Far from it. 2 level of rogues get you through the door, sometimes. Iit doesnt let you be the party favor when **** hits the fan.

I see you have a multi-class with a splash of rogue. I see you also chose your words. In other ways sure, i think you can make an awesome multiclass that can do some things a pure rogue cannot, wouldnt disagree with you on that. But no one can take away the master of "jack of all trades" when it comes to a pure rogue versus a multiclass version.

[MysticTheurge]

lol, no hug necessary, simply stating a FACT and in alignment with the OP. I often see an LFM up that I request an invite too, (while their listing identifies rogue needed). I then get turned down or no response at all. My rogue is far from gimp and mt persona is that of neutral.

To be fair, this happens to me on my Cleric a lot too. I think there's a lot of people who just don't know how the "join" part of the LFM system works.