Rangers

[Osharan_Tregarth]

Well I think they are shooting a bit slower than that but they are indeed shooting faster than the players.
I'm not claiming it... I don't really pay much attention. But if you read through that thread, there was some discussion about mob ranged speeds.
However I have never been shot by a Human slaying arrow fired from a flaming paralyzing longbow. Nor have I ever been burst slayed/paralyzed/etc from a Heavy repeater in the extraordianarly short time they can do that.Me neither. But I've only pulled(myself) around 200 slaying arrows/bolts of any type in the last year or so. That's not something I'll take into account here. I'm not going to bork an entire section of combat, because of short term, single use attacks.

My addon's in red...

Ranged dps has been helped out a bunch by the additions of precise shot and improved precise shot... I might actually attempt to run a mainly ranged character again. But the way the game is currently designed, I'm much more usefull to a party attacking mobs with my melee weapons than with my ranged weapons. If I'm soloing, I'll kite stuff around and so on with a bow, but otherwise I'm just slowing the party down, and making them chase stuff all over the place.

[Elthbert]

My addon's in red...

Ranged dps has been helped out a bunch by the additions of precise shot and improved precise shot... I might actually attempt to run a mainly ranged character again. But the way the game is currently designed, I'm much more usefull to a party attacking mobs with my melee weapons than with my ranged weapons. If I'm soloing, I'll kite stuff around and so on with a bow, but otherwise I'm just slowing the party down, and making them chase stuff all over the place.

But paralyzation, destruption, smiting, those are not single use attacks, and for purposes of Undead or Constructs disruption and smiting are slaying effects. But more than that I have rune across rangers who have litterally pages of slaying arrows. they are for sale for a very inexpensive price on the auction house. This doesnot mention the ability to stack effects for damage alone such as flaming arrows on a greater giantbane bow for trolls and the like. I don't think this is an issue of single use effects as it is the ability of the ranged weapon in general.

[QuantumFX]

So honestly before I get to far in what is the best build?

STR based elf. 30STR/30 DEX just rocks. Also you have the option for racial weapon enhancements in Peircing/Slashing/Class Specific Ranged Weapons (Rapier/Longsword/Bows) rather than limiting yourself to Slashing (Axes).

OK, back to the topic.

There are 2 factors that, IMHO, affect rangers more than any other class.

First is the DDO melee combat system. The lack of proper shields and double weapons disproportionately skews DPS in favor of THF styles. (This is from a DPS PoV not a stat damaging argument.)
- Sword and Board loses out on an offhanded source of damage. (S&B style affects STR rangers because of the bizarre implementation of Improved Shield Bash)
- TWF loses a souce of defense (bucklers and more specifically Improved Buckler Defense).
- The lack of double weapons also affects STR based rangers due to pack space and the fact that a double weapon can be used in TWF or THF style.
- THF gets an AOE effect that is nowhere in the P&P rules.

Second, rangers need a better selection for enhancement chains. For single class rangers there is only one desirable enhancement chain to max out: Rangers Dexterity. After that all the "cookie cutter" ranger builds max out racial enhancements.

Some suggestions I've offered in the past:

Rangers (OK, OK all classes) need to have the toughness enhancement chain open to them. Rangers have just as much affinity for the feat as any other melee class in this game. (And yes rangers are a melee class.)

Improved Two Weapon Defense/Blocking would be a nice ranger only chain since they do have an affinity for the TWF style.

Some "Way of" chains would be nice. Examples would include Way of the Dervish (Could emulate the PrC), Way of the Bow (To emulate aspects of the Initiate of the Bow PrC)

[KoboldKiller]

No it's not bad enough to break the game, and yes laughable was maybe a little to harsh. The rate of fire while slightly increased it seems is still to slow compared to melee. DPS for a bow is to low as it is, whether the risk vs. reward is less with a bow is beside the point. The "Ranger" is supposed to be a master hunter thus knowing where to place his shot for maximum damage. I dont necessarily feel they should be able to do as much as melee but 30% is to low. Maybe more towards the 40%-45% of melee. As it stands now you cannot general get off more than two shots before the enemy is on top of you and pounding you down.

[CSFurious]

that is just the way this game is designed right now

a good ranger fighting their favorite enemy is a great addition to any quest

on norm in the Tor, my ranger/fighter cuts through giants, same applies to undead

if some players do not know that, i do not want to play with them in the first place

[Crabo]

However, DDO has, rightly, made ranged combat a very effective method of combat which does not also offer all of the advantages of melee.

You havent rolled a toon past level 8 , have you?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I don't think Rangers need any more than they already have.....We need some balance between the classes, and as you said Rangers are already an awesome class.

Ranged combat needs to be fixed for everyone, but other than that Rangers are great and don't need to be better. (Animal companions would be nice though)

I do agree that they don't get enough respect and invites though.
I have a muli-classed Rgr so I get even less respect, but I often group with a friend of mine who is a pure Rgr and one of the best in the game IMO. I've had to do some real sweettalking to convince some people to take both of us and that we did not need a tank to complete the quest.

My favorite has been two Tor runs with three Rangers and no other tanks.....people were so worried before the start, but it was mostly a very smooth run IMHO. We did wipe on one of the dragons once in both runs, but I don't think the lack of tanks was the reason.....and although I have not done scale runs as often as most, my experiance has been that wiping once on one of the dragons is normal....granted none of my toons are the most uber in the game.

With a high dex, and a shield a Ranger can have almost as good an AC as most tanks....at least at lower lvls...and with Barkskin at medium lvls as well......at higher lvls AC is much less important.

The best rangers I've seen are a little lacking in DPS, but usually make up for it by using rapiers with high crit ranges and special abilities. (duel wielding rapiers of puncturing for instance).

The high reflex saves and evasion, plus cure wands make them one of the most survivable classes in the game.

They really don't get enough respect....which surprises me at higher lvls....where the ranger really shines.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

i agree with you fully, but the problem is that people when they see a ranger is that they dont know if your built properly or badly, casue if built right they just as good as any fighter, but if wrong then its like a wasted space, and any class is like that to be honest, but when they see a fighter even if hes built poorly they still take him becasue they dont know

Yeah, but, Is the only melee type you are willing to group with the one who can take down the boss in only two hits? That is not the majority of melees out there.

I'm always bothered by the fact that so many people need this perfect party makeup before going on any quest.....it's just not so.

if people just work together, almost anyquest can be done with an average group of almost any type of players.......that means even a low HP, low BPS ranger....

I play a Rgr6/Rog3/Wiz5.....I am a low HP, low BPS ranger........and I wouldn't want to be the only tank in many parties.....but I do have good weapons and equipment and can contribute well to any party.

If you are lacking in tanks, just have someone (anyone) block the door and lets your ranged/spell casters unload on the mobs....etc.

I know this game is weighted toward high DPS tanks, but I've had the most fun in groups that were very iregular in makeup.

Smart playing and cooperation is more imprtant I think.....and more fun anyway. It doesn't take the perfect build on any class....and there are many bad builds out there on every class.....infact, I would argue that a badly built ranger is better than a badly built fighter in many casses. Evasion, better saves, cure wands,.....those things go a long way. And even a bad ranger can still range pretty good.

[Fallout]

Reason why some people don't want rangers in the group (unless the ranger is known), is that sometimes all they do is range combat.

Shoot at 1 mob. Then all mobs aggro on ranger. Ranger runs around. Cleric gets busy trying to heal ranger. Tanks get frustrated chasing the mobs around who's aggroed on ranger.

Rangers are a powerful class, but range combat is borked.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I play DDO, you know, the one where ranged combat is fine.
I am not sure what game the whiners about ranged combat are playing, but they seem to think that the MASSIVE advantages of ranged combat should not come with any cost and should do equal damage to a melee weapon, which is, frankly, equally absurd. However, DDO has, rightly, made ranged combat a very effective method of combat which does not also offer all of the advantages of melee.

There is room for a compromise you know. There have been numerous posts about how ranged combat is lacking.
Without going into everything about it, I will just say that it should be closer to melle than it is.....not equal, but closer than it is.

I have a dex based archer build that every ranged feat available and only weapon finesse to help him in melee combat........and he still gets more kills in melee than he does when ranging.....that is not right!
When the best ranged build cannot even compete with the worst melee build it is broken.

However, broken is still very effective when used right....even broken it is still possible to range manythings in the game and take no damage at all....broken but still nice.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Firstly to imply there is nothing wrong with ranged combat is laughable. Second, and this is an honest question, what is the "proper" build for a ranger? I have three types, a str based dwarven ranger, a dex build elf and a 16str 16 dex base human build. So honestly before I get to far in what is the best build?

I'd say all three of those are fine......but I think the OP was suggesting a tank oriented build was best. From my own experiance, specialized toons are better than more versitile ones (but not as fun...and not in all situations) and the game is weighter toward melee combat DPS. (also weighted toward Dwarves)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Reason why some people don't want rangers in the group (unless the ranger is known), is that sometimes all they do is range combat.

Shoot at 1 mob. Then all mobs aggro on ranger. Ranger runs around. Cleric gets busy trying to heal ranger. Tanks get frustrated chasing the mobs around who's aggroed on ranger.

Rangers are a powerful class, but range combat is borked.

I think this is mostly a lower lvl thing. Extremly annoying, yes....also happends with some arcanes too. But higher lvl rangers give up on ranged combat very fast.

I still range a lot, but I refuse to run around like that. If I draw agro, I change to mellee. Some rangers can still get a lot of kills by ranging and running, but most find that they can get more kills by just meleeing....especially after 8th lvl or so.

[llevenbaxx]

even the supposed problems with targeting can be circumvented with a little mouse finesse. frankly, the targeting system as it is doesn't lead a ranged target, nor should it.

.

Disagree with this totally. Its a non-factor in a turn based game, as the creature isnt moving technically when you roll the dice. Real time needs to account for that. The monster benefit from it, so should we. We arent rolling an attack for the 5' radius the mod was just standing in, we were rolling on the mob. If we wanted a 1st person shooter game we wouldnt be here.

[drachine]

i am excluding those who don't do this of course.

reason 1: is the ranger using ranged combat to aggro opponents and then proceeds to move away from the party, usually be backpedalling and shooting at them. then the fighters and melee end up running after the enemies and the ranger as well. i have reached the point that when i see this happening i don't bother to give chase anymore. after all, you aggroed the fool so i guess you should be able to kill them. good luck.

solution: kill or incapacitate your opponents or shoot at stuff already aggroed by the tanks.

reason 2: is the ranger that excels at two weapon combat and never dodges or blocks or tumbles or moves out of the way when it is clear their opponent is kicking their ass. not really sure what that is about. even drizz't had to block once in a while. sometimes the ranger has poor AC and they just become a mana pit for the cleric. i'm sure you have heard this before.

solution: buff well and use dodge and blocking and damage reduction effectively to not take so much damage. maybe heal yourself.

i think it's an easy class to learn to play well and usually at higher levels rangers are awesome, but this is what i have seen at lower levels that makes me hesitant to invite one.

[Raiderone]

I play rangers and tanks. I'm playing a human ranger , human tank
and a elf ranger.

I for one don't like it either when ranger gets aggro with range weapon
and then runs all over the place. I never do that with my ranger.

FAce it, you should switch from ranged to melee attack. Your not LEGOLAS
so give it up. I TWF and I shield with one handed weapon too.
Do all that running and range **** when you are SOLOING...You aren't SOLOING. Might be more a PUG issue than a Ranger issue...

I don't TWF until much higher levels. I like my shield bonuses...

I've told some rangers before to stop getting aggro until tank engages.

It's no different with a rogue...don't rush in until tanks get aggro.
I always wait then attack...

[Club'in]

i am excluding those who don't do this of course.

reason 1: is the ranger using ranged combat to aggro opponents and then proceeds to move away from the party, usually be backpedalling and shooting at them. then the fighters and melee end up running after the enemies and the ranger as well. i have reached the point that when i see this happening i don't bother to give chase anymore. after all, you aggroed the fool so i guess you should be able to kill them. good luck.

solution: kill or incapacitate your opponents or shoot at stuff already aggroed by the tanks.

As for 1; and it amuses (irritates?) the ranger that you guys get so miffed. Yeah, take a breather, man, I got this one. You don't HAVE to chase the thing around. If it's ****ed at me, it's not attacking the sorc, the rogue is getting sneak attacks, you can take a smoke break, for all I care. Or better yet, don't you carry a throwing axe or something? And as far as I know, anything else pulled is gonna be agro-d on the original puller, the ranger, so when that wave hits the front line you get a free round of attacks (or two) before they start beating on you. Try using intimidate as they pass you by. I thought you were a tank...

[Beherit_Baphomar]

As for 1; and it amuses (irritates?) the ranger that you guys get so miffed. Yeah, take a breather, man, I got this one. You don't HAVE to chase the thing around. If it's ****ed at me, it's not attacking the sorc, the rogue is getting sneak attacks, you can take a smoke break, for all I care. Or better yet, don't you carry a throwing axe or something? And as far as I know, anything else pulled is gonna be agro-d on the original puller, the ranger, so when that wave hits the front line you get a free round of attacks (or two) before they start beating on you. Try using intimidate as they pass you by. I thought you were a tank...

/qft.

If you are in a heated battle with casters all round and mob tanks holding you from them, the ranger who plinks an arrow into each of those casters is doing you a huge favour.

People who dont use ranged combat effectively are the problem, not those that choose to kite. Eye em oh!

[Elthbert]

You havent rolled a toon past level 8 , have you?

Yeah thats it... oh wait, i've been hear since beta and am one of the biggest complainers about the level cap not being raised.

My 14th level character uses a bow ALL the time.

[Crabo]

Yeah thats it... oh wait, i've been hear since beta and am one of the biggest complainers about the level cap not being raised.

My 14th level character uses a bow ALL the time.

I have a pure 14 ranger which i built specifically for ranged combat. He can equip 2 x masterwork shortswords and do more damage with those than he can with any bow. If you have been running around shooting a bow letting parties drag your ass through the dungeon, that is your own problem.

I wouldnt describe using 2 x masterwork shortswords as " a very effective method of combat " as you described ranged combat, but it is certainly alot more use than using a bow. 15 seconds of manyshot is the ONLY time ranged combat does decent damage.

But you know all this right, been here since beta right...haha.

[QuantumFX]

Try using intimidate as they pass you by. I thought you were a tank...

QFT - If you're a fighter or a barbarian and you cannot pull hate off of a ranger then the ranger is doing his job and you're not doing yours.