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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riot View Post
    You are aware, that if mobs don't hit you, Your AC can equal 10 and it won't matter right?

    Just checking.

    I mean, You do understand that you Tumbling, With Your Mobility Feat, at an AC 90+ Is jsut as effective as running in a circle with an AC of 10?
    You get this right?
    Absolutely False. Its quite evident that our To Hit box Lags behind us..... i'D much rather have the extra +6 AC if I need to get out of the way of a mob.



    First, every Natural 20 in the game. Surrounded by 10 mobs? You'll be hit twice every time the group makes 2 swings. Not counting average disparity.

    Secondly, there are some mobs which can hit AC's in the 50's with a natural 20.

    Clearly, what you don't seem to understand is how annoying it is to chase mobs around that are following someone.

    The Point of an Intimitank is to bring the mobs to one spot for others to beat on. And be able to survive/contribute to the beat down. By taking Spring Attack, Mobility, and lacking 2 of the shield feats, IN MY OPINION.... And you did ask for it..... You are a Hybrid.

    Really now, I've said the same thing several times now... This isn't a hard concept.
    The Only concept I've grasped out of all your input is that no one can make a "Tank" that Deviates from "Your Template". I asked for your Input because I had respect for the Riot build.

    You say Running away from mobs and Not getting hit is better than Tumbling back and forth to keep them inthe same place? You just contradicted yourself. Running back and forth is FAR from Tumbling.....

    Running = NO Boost to AC
    Your Cannot Run Through a Mob. You must go around them... But you CAN Tumble Through Them.

    By Holding down Block and Tumbling Back and Forth, I can Hold Aggro and Keep mobs confined to a very smal area for the Barbs and Rogues to beat on. THis is what your missing.
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  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riot View Post
    When you are shield blocking, how much damage does you Khopesh Do?
    ZERO.....

    How much damage does your shield do?
    ZERO.....

    If you never shield block, why even bother with Shield Mastery?

    The point being, ISB is useful for when you are shield blocking. You are not left with ZERO offense.

    I don't understand why you find this difficult to comprehend.
    Ok, here is what my inventory is showing.

    Say we have a 38 AC mob, which is about the average on elite:

    38-20 = 18

    So, I hit the mob on a 18, 19 or 20. Meaning that I hit it 15% of the time.

    I'd hit for 1d6+4. So, 7.5 damage on average 15% of the time.

    Adding critical hits:

    1/20 * 3/20 * 15 + 2/20 *7.5 + 1/20 * 17/20 * 7.5 = 118.125 damage over 100 round!

    Now, I know you got a +5 Mithril Tower Shield of Bashing, but let's just say that's not the norm!

    Now, a second Borror, without CE so he can deal more damage, is swinging beside the first one against the same mob:

    38-29 = 9 / 38-34 = 4 / 38-39 = 2 / 38-39 = 2

    And he'd deal 1d10+19+2d6 per swing. So, 31.5 damage on average.

    Adding crits:

    1. First attack:

    10/20*31.5 + 2/20*8/20*31.5 + 2/20*12/20*80.5 = 21.84

    2. Second attack:

    17/20*31.5 + 2/20*3/20*31.5 + 2/20*17/20*80.5 = 34.09

    3. Third and Fourth attack:

    19/20*31.5 + 2/20*19/20*80.5 = 35.5725

    19/20*31.5 + 2/20*19/20*80.5 = 35.5725

    4. Conclusion:

    Over 100 round:

    Total of "DPS" Borror: 13,107.5 damage
    Shield Bashing Borror: 118.125 damage
    Total damage: 13,225.625 damage

    % DPS of Shield Bash: 0,8932%

    That is considerating that there is only one melee in the group and that melee is another Intimitank, not a DPS barbarian, not a DPS rogue, not a ranger... no... a one-handed fighting fighter without Power Attack! And only one. Even if Shield Bashing would be twice faster... only 1,7863% damage added!

    So, in conclusion, I'll use the words of my roomate: "Shield Bashing is for those who wants to do Low Road at level 14 without taking damage."

    And there goes about an hour of my life..

    PS: If you see any error in my maths, tell me... but I don't think I'm wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Riot View Post
    Tumble isn't as useful as you think it is.
    If the point is to move around an not be hit, You don't need tumble for that.
    I can Intimi-Kite alot more effectively with my Gyroscopic boots on.

    The point of Intimi-Tanking, is Not to lead "mobs on parade". It's to bring em together so someone else can pound them/AoE them.

    If you're pulling, fine... But again running is easier and just as effective.
    I'll say it here only once because you guys have debated in number of posts after that one too.

    Mobility is there for Spring Attack. Spring Attack is useful depending on your fighting style.

    Ever PvPed with Riott? Ever fought casters in there?
    I'll assume you said yes. So, I also guess you know that the best against them is to get in their back so all their spell misses?

    Same sort of question? Ever fought Giants with Riott?
    I'll assume yes once more. Have you notice the slow pattern in their attack?
    Again, I'll guess yes, since you've been around for so long.
    Ever tried kill one without any AC just for fun? I did. I took one hit, avoided all the rest by jumping around.

    Here's the lesson:
    AC, saves and HP are your only defense. Your mobility is a great one, no matter what your build is, as long as you've got the jump to do it. This is why Spring Attack isn't a bad feat and I'm not questionning it.
    A few weeks ago, I'd have been on your side. However, a guildy of mine said something that is so true:

    "Every fight should be fought like in PvP. In there, you got all your HP, all your SPs, all your abilities... and you're by yourself. No one else to babysit you, only yourself. You're fighting for your life. You die, it's over. You die, you lost. No recalling for SP or recall after death, You got to take the most of what you got."


    Sorry but, if you're not moving while fighting a pack of mobs, not jumping over them, not replacing yourself, not avoiding a few attacks, not placing yourself elsewhere to take less hits, you're not playing your build to the maximum.
    You're not taking advantage of our combat system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Riot View Post
    If you're comparing him to the Riott Tank, there's a hoard of skill points lacking, not to mention Human recovery advantage.
    Yup, those are Riott's main advantage over Borror too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    The Only concept I've grasped out of all your input is that no one can make a "Tank" that Deviates from "Your Template". I asked for your Input because I had respect for the Riot build.
    Errrr... I won't comment on that one..

    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    By Holding down Block and Tumbling Back and Forth, I can Hold Aggro and Keep mobs confined to a very smal area for the Barbs and Rogues to beat on. THis is what your missing.
    I'll sort of agree with Riot on that one thought.

    I don't see tumbling as a good tactik. Chances are you'll probably never have to tumble around like a moron for more AC. If you really need help, tumbling around while shield blocking might be good, but I advise you to not tumble all the time, you won't make any friends like this.

    But for repositionning or to save your ass, yeah, I can see that as viable.
    Last edited by Borror0; 10-18-2007 at 12:53 AM.
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  3. #23
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    Experimenting more with Tumbling... Ran CO6.... Withmy Heavy Mith Sheild, I can Tumble now, not quite withthe Tower sheild unless I down a Tumble Pot...

    Intimidate, Block, Tumble Forward, Tumble Back, Mobs stayed very tight on me.... I certainly wouldnt start tumbling aroudn the room to hold aggro.. But I was able to keep the mobs pretty close and benefit from the extra AC.
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  4. #24
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    Default Just an amateurs POV..

    ...i have a couple DPS builds,and i have a intimitank thats currently lvl11,so not super experienced with intimitanks.

    Ok,that being said, from a DPS point of view, when you tumble?? and i have to move to hit the mob attacking you?? i get -4 to hit unless you tumble well enough to keep them bunched. If you do manage that?? cool. I have run with an intimidator who tumbled alot.Was very frustrating,they pulled the mobs fine,but we spent all our time running after them,so almost felt pointless to inimidate.

    Your potential AC is great,and your standing is great too. I'm not too sure what AC the elite end game mobs can hit though, does it need to really go up to 70 odd??

    I personally tend to build chars around concepts. When i built my inimitank i decided that my Defensive DPS wasn't going to be anywhere near my DPS builds so decided not to worry about DPS really at all,and went for "effects" type weapons. So as for dwarven axe vs khopesh?? i'd go with whatever one you can get the best range of effects out of,although you get dwarven axes for free so if you can find a better feat use?? might be something to consider.

    Anyways, like the title said,an amateurs POV so take what you will out of it,or dont take what you will out of it lol.

    Cheers
    Draag-All Barb at 14,cash holder,Goose- you want healing when??15 Cleric,Smaash-multiclass survivalist,Slaash- Intimidorf @ 16,Shaank-lvl5 DPS sneak,Crtlaltdel-Greataxe wielding Bard
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  5. #25
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    Sorry Draag, only people who still actively play this game are allowed to comment.

    -Kirvan

  6. #26
    Community Member KiwiPhil889's Avatar
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    Default lol...

    ... yeah,thanx for that man,but doesn't me being able to comment here indicate that my acct is again active?? lol, saw ya the other night in fact,on Kirvan,was runnin my new barb experiment lol.

    And am enjoyin soloin' through the orchard area too, although the beholder Tehe..???.something or other,gave me bit of trouble lol,Smaash is ...well... Smaashin things lol.

    cheers
    Draag-All Barb at 14,cash holder,Goose- you want healing when??15 Cleric,Smaash-multiclass survivalist,Slaash- Intimidorf @ 16,Shaank-lvl5 DPS sneak,Crtlaltdel-Greataxe wielding Bard
    Proud member of " Utopia",in the provence formerly known as Aundair

  7. #27
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    OK B... Seems my point is lost on you... One last try.

    When you use Shield Mastery, you are blocking with your shield correct?
    (obviously)

    At that point in time, how much damage are you doing? Assume you have to block for 100 rounds....
    (Since you are blocking, obviously the answer is zero)

    If you have ISB how much damage would you do instead of zero?
    Over 100 round:
    Shield Bashing Borror: 118.125 damage
    Get my point?
    It's not about which DPS is higher, Khopesh or ISB....
    It's about being able to DO damage while blocking, or Not.

    That's why I favor ISB. Not because it's a complete whip Booty damage source. But because it IS a damage source.

    ------------------------------------------------

    Impaqt,

    You're entitled to your opinion.
    Keep one thing in mind, I can do Forward Flips with Riott in FULL PLATE AND TOWER SHIELD.... I've played with Tumble.

    It's uses are small, limited, and hardly worth the effort.

    imho, Spring Attack is something made for lighter armored fighters/Barbs/rogues who stick and move. Because of the hit box system they are able to avoid being hit all together. (I know, I play a Robed Fighter "Akeeles Build")

    Imho, and this is my opinion, Tanks Turtle up.... That's their job. Group up Enemy mobs so your group can dispatch them enmasse.

    That means staying still. Imo.


    --------------------------------------------------

    "Every fight should be fought like in PvP. In there, you got all your HP, all your SPs, all your abilities... and you're by yourself. No one else to babysit you, only yourself. You're fighting for your life. You die, it's over. You die, you lost. No recalling for SP or recall after death, You got to take the most of what you got."
    That's a great sentiment for a Hybrid fighter, DPS fighter. But I couldn't disagree more for an Intimitank.

    If you want a PVP toon, DON'T MAKE AN INTIMITANK!!!!!!!

    Your number one ability is useless in PvP.
    They way I PvP is simple. Spells, DR, and Damage Shields.
    And it's good at best. It's not a world beater.

    --------------------------------------------------


    Sorry but, if you're not moving while fighting a pack of mobs, not jumping over them, not replacing yourself, not avoiding a few attacks, not placing yourself elsewhere to take less hits, you're not playing your build to the maximum.
    You're not taking advantage of our combat system.
    Again, great advise for a DPSer or Hybrid.
    Unfortunately the Tanks job is different. (In my opinion).

    As a Tank standing my ground provides several advantages.

    1 ) My melee allies don't have to run around ergo suffering -4 to hit.
    2 ) My melee allies gain flanking because of my intimidating.
    3 ) Spell casters can easily target with AoE spells either Damaging or CC. And not worry about me moving the mobs out of range. or Missing them.
    4 ) Two handed weapons will get a lot more mobs in their glancing blows. Ergo increasing their DPS.
    5 ) Improved precise shot archers have an easier time hitting multiple targets due to their clustered proximity.
    6 ) Bottlenecking is easier if I'm not moving, there's no opening for mobs to slip through.

    ------------------------------------------
    In short, The only time a Tank should be running around with Intimidated mobs is if he's moving them to a set place..... (And you definitely don't need Tumble to do that)
    Riott Ad Infinitum ~20 Fighter ~ 67 AC unbuffed ~ "Riott, AC Intimi-Tank Build"
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  8. #28
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    Just an Update here....

    At Level 9 now. Droped Weapon Focus for SheildMastery, Abandoned Kopesh and Sticking to Dwarven axes.. I've actually colleced a few nice +2/+3 Elemental Bursting DA's of Parrying.... Should go well withthe build.

    If all you ever do is Turtle up and Sheild block, I can see the issue with Mobility and Spring attack... Its an effective tactic.. But pretty boring when the safety of the party is NOT in jeopardy..... Fortunatly, I run with a guild that very rarely is in dire straights.....

    I LOVE Spring Attack! Being able to move and Attack without pentaly is a huge boost on a character that is not focused on his TO HIT Modifier.

    Standing with a 27Intimidate right now. If a Squisy gets aggro, I can get it off him in a hurry. If I'm Partying with a good rogue, they lead in the Kill COunt. Its a lot of fun and a ot of stratagy.

    If tanks werent meant to be mobile, why do they have tracks? Seems tome in this day and age the army could easily drop in armored stationary artilery... But the benefit of a Tank is its mobility...... I find mobility quite an asset on this build.
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  9. #29

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    Sounds like Riot plays by this rule: A good offense is a good defense.

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  10. #30
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    No... a Good Offense, is a Ticked off Barbarian, or a Sorc with Distance.
    Riott Ad Infinitum ~20 Fighter ~ 67 AC unbuffed ~ "Riott, AC Intimi-Tank Build"
    Founder of the Twilight Avengers ~ Khyber Server ~ Owner of the Ultimate Gaming Table
    "Build a man a fire, keep him warm for the rest of the day. Light a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life."

  11. #31

    Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Riot View Post
    No... a Good Offense, is a Ticked off Barbarian, or a Sorc with Distance.
    HAhaha, sooo true.....

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