And you wonder why you can't find clerics

[MrWizard]

Clericing is expensive.

I just finished Delera's with a pug.

One caster or a UMD spec can cast halt undead, even on elite, scrolls or spells, and there should be almost no problems except for wraith and wights.

If I am in a group and the caster does not have it, I think he is a gimp and will tell him/her so. SOrc or wiz, no excuse to not carry that spell asap. With all the undead you will be doing all the way to end game. (hint: even works in epic....)

My FvS went with UMD so I could use those scrolls.


Demand crowd control from the caster and tell 'em 'no haste' so they stay together and work together better.

[Waukeen]

One caster or a UMD spec can cast halt undead, even on elite, scrolls or spells, and there should be almost no problems except for wraith and wights.

If I am in a group and the caster does not have it, I think he is a gimp and will tell him/her so. SOrc or wiz, no excuse to not carry that spell asap. With all the undead you will be doing all the way to end game. (hint: even works in epic....)

My FvS went with UMD so I could use those scrolls.


Demand crowd control from the caster and tell 'em 'no haste' so they stay together and work together better.

The answer to this 2 year old thread about clericing in PuGs with idiots being expensive is a combination of halt undead and conspiring with a caster to withhold haste... it all makes sense to me now. Thank you, MrWizard now this can all rest in peace.

Or maybe just don't heal stupid, let em die. Its a teachable moment, now top me off healbots.

[Ministry]

One caster or a UMD spec can cast halt undead, even on elite, scrolls or spells, and there should be almost no problems except for wraith and wights.

If I am in a group and the caster does not have it, I think he is a gimp and will tell him/her so. SOrc or wiz, no excuse to not carry that spell asap. With all the undead you will be doing all the way to end game. (hint: even works in epic....)

My FvS went with UMD so I could use those scrolls.


Demand crowd control from the caster and tell 'em 'no haste' so they stay together and work together better.

Ya know that normally I agree with what you post and for the most part I do here as well.

The only issue I have with this "type" of advice is about telling people what to have for spells and / or how to play.

Even on my cleric I tell people... if you are in my line of sight / spells, you will not die, but I don't tell them what to cast, to have pots, etc... etc...

I might suggest some things to people, but they will do as they want, some will have "ideal" builds and some won't and every player is different in skills and personality and will do as they please.

I remember the first time teaming with Eriik and thinking... ***??? This guy is taking care of all the traps, rezzing people, killing everything and doesn't say a word, stays close to the team and is all round one of the most complete players in the game. Then I leave the team, switch to a lowbie and get onto a Tangleroot run and the first thing I hear is the cleric adding a WF to the group and telling them outright they won't be receiving any healing and better be self-sufficient... ya, I dropped that group after tearing that fool another one. The next day I'm in a shroud on hard with no clerics and we complete.

It's like anything in life... it's about FIT. Sometimes you find players that work in your schema and other times you have to try harder to adjust the team strategy to make the quest successful.

The best players and best leaders can take pretty much any team through any quest and be successful.

But, even the best constructed teams can fail because everyone is different and wants to do what they want the way they want.

In the end... Some will, Some won't... So what.

Life (including ddo life) is like a box of chocolates... (you know the rest).

[stromburg]

Or maybe just don't heal stupid, let em die. Its a teachable moment, now top me off healbots.

I've kept a level 6 cleric capped on argo for a few months now simply to see how the new folks on here play and I'll definitely agree that its a teachable moment. Other then when I get an experienced player, or a competent new one that make healing easier, I've noticed a few things during my exclusively PUG runs.

1. Most new players do not know the capabilities of a cleric in terms of crowd control; i.e. I cast command and watch the enemy lay there until he gets back up while the party "recovers" from its latest fight or watch the party bash on as the enemy mage remains held.

2. It may be a money issue but I rarely see a player chug a pot to remove a curse or poison on themselves. Several times I've watched a player's health ping away as a Melf's acid arrow eats at his/her hp wondering if/when he might chug an acid resist potion.

3. Some do not really understand the value of a good clicky item and several times I've given or told them to keep certain clickies which would benefit them.

4. It takes some players some time to understand the benefit of good, and appropriate, buffs prior to running head long into a fight

5. Some players seem to think its better to keep fighting to the bitter end rather then pull back from or bypass certain fights. I did a taming the flames run the other day and watched as the group consistently tried killing the fire elementals that kept re-spawning. Things worked better once they understood that they could simply run by them without getting chased.

As much as possible I will heal people no matter their actions but I also use that time as an opportunity to show them how they can better themselves for future runs. Not only do I think they have a chance at understanding the game better but I think once they get to higher levels they will benefit the party more. Some listen; some don't.

For the most part these runs are resource intensive but I've decided that my rich capped characters can put back into the game some of the coin they have been hoarding. Besides, it's great practice.

As well, a good cleric would not let this thread die. At the very least they would take it to a resurrection shrine

[TheJusticar]

Ya know that normally I agree with what you post and for the most part I do here as well.

The only issue I have with this "type" of advice is about telling people what to have for spells and / or how to play.

Even on my cleric I tell people... if you are in my line of sight / spells, you will not die, but I don't tell them what to cast, to have pots, etc... etc...

I might suggest some things to people, but they will do as they want, some will have "ideal" builds and some won't and every player is different in skills and personality and will do as they please.

I remember the first time teaming with Eriik and thinking... ***??? This guy is taking care of all the traps, rezzing people, killing everything and doesn't say a word, stays close to the team and is all round one of the most complete players in the game. Then I leave the team, switch to a lowbie and get onto a Tangleroot run and the first thing I hear is the cleric adding a WF to the group and telling them outright they won't be receiving any healing and better be self-sufficient... ya, I dropped that group after tearing that fool another one. The next day I'm in a shroud on hard with no clerics and we complete.

It's like anything in life... it's about FIT. Sometimes you find players that work in your schema and other times you have to try harder to adjust the team strategy to make the quest successful.

The best players and best leaders can take pretty much any team through any quest and be successful.

But, even the best constructed teams can fail because everyone is different and wants to do what they want the way they want.

In the end... Some will, Some won't... So what.

Life (including ddo life) is like a box of chocolates... (you know the rest).

+1 Excellent way to put it. You don't make demands while you are in a quest. If you have such demands, make them clear from the get-go or before you even start the quest. VoD elite w/o clerics (mostly WF party). Before you let the caster join, ask them politely if they have Recon, if not, send a tell and tell them sorry but you are looking for casters with Recon. You need a bard with certain song, a pally with certain aura, you name it. If you are looking for a specific party make-up it is your responsibility as leader to make sure those requirements are met. It's not the responsibility of the caster to have certain spells. Again, if it's your group you have every right to ask for whatever spell you are looking for, if it's not your group feel free to drop if you don't like the party make-up. However, if you start insinuating that someone let it be caster or any other class just because that person don't build characters the way you do that they are gimp just because they don't carry certain spell/ability then the one who is wrong is you, not them.

Godspeed.

[JasonJi72]

While I am a fairly new player (about 3 months), I put a lot of thought into how I play my Rogue and Cleric. I am on my rebuilds now, having played the characters enough to learn how I want to build them, and how to play them better. I really do love playing those characters, and don't plan on shelving them any time soon.

My Rogue has a cleric level, and has found himself as the main or secondary healer in many parties. This gets rather expensive. The problem is, I don't get much healing from the party healer, because I can heal myself, and they have enough difficulty keeping the others up. No problem, but there have been a couple of times when I could have killed a tough opponent if I could have stayed engaged. In most cases the guy I could have dropped kills another while I am recovering, and while I may be able to heal the other character, I can't do much of anything if I am dead, so self-preservation must take priority.

My cleric is not a healbot, nor is he a battlecleric. I gave him a greatsword so he could assist in damage dealing while remaining out of the main foray, and I use CC spells when appropriate, otherwise, I focus on healing the party. It took me a while to learn that sometimes you have to let people die. That is a hard pill to swallow for a cleric, but necessary. If I find myself draining SP and items too fast, I have to make a decision. I identify the characters I need to help me finish the quest, and focus on them. One other thing I have to point out to any that may read this, Please stay close to the cleric while he is trying to heal you after a battle. I can't tell you how many SP I have wasted chasing down injured people who suddenly run ahead at half strength. I usually tell people that after the first time my spell doesn't connect, I will make sure they are next to me before I try to heal them again. If they die... they die...

BTW. My Cleric has a much larger Blacklist of players I won't group with than my Rogue. Mmmmhhhhaaaahhhaahha!

[MightyKrendarian]

Having played a lot of support characters for my friends when campaigning in PnP, the interesting transformation of these support characters in an online game is that most folks are completely oblivious to what it takes to run an effective one. I carry one cure light wand (for topping off rare groups that know what a rest shrine is after using the rest shrine) and one cure moderate (for conserving my sp on-the-fly) on my clerics, if the group wants to skip every shrine in the dungeon and get to endgame in less than 2000 nanoseconds (I figure 100 per level is nice), they can buy their own wands. Rallying cry of the Damned and Quick To Die >>>"Go go go!!!!!!"

[CE2JRH123]

I have found some incredibly generous PUG's recently. For example:

I joined a group doing various quests in the shroud. Someone asked if I had heal scrolls, and I said I did have 15, but not more since I couldn't really afford more. The guy ran onto his haggle bard, bought me a stack of 100, and handed them to me while the group was forming.

Later, I was in a VoD raid. The leader said something like "Use scrolls first, save mana for the last 30 seconds/bats/adds/etc." I said I did have a stack of 100 scrolls, but didn't really have much plat to replace them, so I preferred to use them as a last ditch effort. The leader gave me a stack of 50 and said "Use these first." I used 40 of them and offered to give the rest back, and he let me keep them. When the gloves of Glacial Assault came up, I passed them to him (a sorc) because even though the efficient metamagics might have been slightly useful, they were way awesome for him and at best a minor upgrade for me.

But yeah; it seems like at higher levels, people are awesome. Thank you, Thelanis.

[Creddi]

point by point

- Get haggle/get someone with haggle to buy your wands/scrolls.
- i didnt blow that much stuff back in the day, matt damon!
- temple of vol elite give me about 10k per run actually...
- well if, in your party, people are dying, even if they are ********, and in my party the ******** people are saved by the awesome cleric, guess whose the better cleric?
- yes, your cleric is my shrine, and my cleric is your shrine.
- umm, maybe you've never fought a marut?

now, if you havent been playing the game long, or your a once a week type of gamer, thats cool, dont mean to hurt feelings. but if you play any more that you should know better on all those points.

Translation: You shouldn't play a cleric unless you have already got a higher level character to subsidize not only yourself but entire PUGs. That goes along with the philosophy that some vets seem to have that unless you have a higher level character to subsidize yourself with healing wands, all the potions you can drink, etc, that you shouldn't be playing at all.

In other words, you seem to be saying either than only vets should be playing or that anyone playing a cleric, vet or not, should have some way to subsidize you on your way to the top.

By the way, you must be truely pathetic if you use even one raise dead scroll on the way to most quests, since most quests are walkups in safe territiory.

[Clay]

As well, a good cleric would not let this thread die. At the very least they would take it to a resurrection shrine

BAH! Humbug!

A good cleric knows that sometimes you take the soul stone and drop it in the lava!

[Creddi]

Besides the economic side of clericing (which as many have rightly suggested we can contol) there are the emotional and practical sides.

The practical is this: If the quest isn't defeated, you are not just punishing the guilty but yourself and any in the group or raid who do understand too.

And the emotional is this: I am getting sick and tired of being treated like a healbot, essentially taken for granted. My cleric is not there as an extra large wand for the rest of the party to click and otherwise ignore. I will be shrining last, because it is good mana management to use up any remaining mana before shrining. I will choose when and whom to buff, and even if you are not willing to wait for or provide buffs to save me mana, I will at minimum buff myself appropriately (usually resists, depending on the quest).

If you are just going to assume that anyone (cleric or no) not with you is incompetent or unneccessary, then you only have yourself to blame if things go bad, and not only will that and any quest failures frustrate me, but if such frustrations are too common (which they seem to be), I will either just stop playing my cleric or stick to soloing.

And if you are wondering where all the clerics are, that is where they are. Anywhere *you* are not.

(There have been good groups, and some rather good ones. Just so many bad ones. ).

[Zenako]

I have found some incredibly generous PUG's recently. For example:

I joined a group doing various quests in the shroud. Someone asked if I had heal scrolls, and I said I did have 15, but not more since I couldn't really afford more. The guy ran onto his haggle bard, bought me a stack of 100, and handed them to me while the group was forming.

Later, I was in a VoD raid. The leader said something like "Use scrolls first, save mana for the last 30 seconds/bats/adds/etc." I said I did have a stack of 100 scrolls, but didn't really have much plat to replace them, so I preferred to use them as a last ditch effort. The leader gave me a stack of 50 and said "Use these first." I used 40 of them and offered to give the rest back, and he let me keep them. When the gloves of Glacial Assault came up, I passed them to him (a sorc) because even though the efficient metamagics might have been slightly useful, they were way awesome for him and at best a minor upgrade for me.

But yeah; it seems like at higher levels, people are awesome. Thank you, Thelanis.

You will find that once a player gets to being among the haves in the game, that many tend to become a lot freer with passing out stuff, since the economics of it are minor. For example, many of my characters carry a stack of HEAL or Raise Dead scrolls, even if they cannot use them, just for cases like above.

Not only does it create goodwill, it also helps the giver in that it makes it that much more likely that the quest will be completed and without excessive drama. Some drama can be fun at times, but having it every run gets old fast.

Since I also cleric a lot, it also gives me chances to help those clerics stuck in a healing rut to open up a bit and use other spells during the quest, that might actually be more effective (spell point wise) such as a single Greater Command Spell on those nasty brute Ogres/Giants/Trolls who while not being too hard to kill would almost certainly land a few nasty blows on your party while they were killing them and then use up way more SP healing after the fact than the single spell before engagement would use....

[Ereshkigal]

overall I make money hand over fist when running my cleric. If you're losing money then you're being far to nice to people who are not contributing to the party. Focus on those that are contributing and keep them alive and buffed. If people are draining your mana + not contributing just carry their stones to the next shrine.

I find I often get unsolicited donations at the end of runs where people feel I did a good job of clericing as well. I PuG 100% of the time with my cleric as well.

[DaoJones]

I just started a FvS in DDO, but I was an experienced prot/healer Monk in Guild Wars (wrote the first online guide about 'em, thank you kindly), and have played healing/support classes in many other MMOs.

My suggestion to healers in any game is always the same (with variations for the specific MMO): Up front, tell your party what you do and do not expect. Casters running ahead of Rogues/people with high spot scores? No heals. People running in different directions? No heals. Too many people trying to be the leader? YOU pick one, and the people who don't like it? No heals. This works even better if you're the party leader. Boot the malcontents. It may seem like work, but in the long run you'll get better groups, earn more XP/loot, and have fewer headaches. If people give you grief, leave the group.

You're a healer - you're the guy with the beer at a frat party. EVERYONE wants you in their group. That gives YOU the leverage to demand better play from the groups you join. At the end of the day, you can be in another group two minutes later, and that sadsack party will still be sitting outside the instance with a "LF Healer" sign over their sad little heads.

[Clay]

You're a healer - you're the guy with the beer at a frat party. EVERYONE wants you in their group. That gives YOU the leverage to demand better play from the groups you join. At the end of the day, you can be in another group two minutes later, and that sadsack party will still be sitting outside the instance with a "LF Healer" sign over their sad little heads.

Don't entirely disagree with your post... but i think you overestimate the 'power of the healer.'

I would drop a group if someone thought they were "the boss" because they were X class. You put the lfm together that I joined... I will follow as long as your leadership mostly makes sense and the stuff gets done in a timely fasion. If I think you suck as a leader, I will find a new group. Has nothing to do with what class you are.

One of the best leaders I know is a squishy rogue.

[Lewcipher]

Don't entirely disagree with your post... but i think you overestimate the 'power of the healer.'

I would drop a group if someone thought they were "the boss" because they were X class. You put the lfm together that I joined... I will follow as long as your leadership mostly makes sense and the stuff gets done in a timely fasion. If I think you suck as a leader, I will find a new group. Has nothing to do with what class you are.

One of the best leaders I know is a squishy rogue.

Bull! You'll hang out as long as it's entertaining and you know it.

[AyumiAmakusa]

I'm a level 13 cleric, mostly healer but my build is focused on the holy spellcasting side. Anyway, for the 13 levels, not once did I purchase a wand or scroll aimed for healing others. One of my healing rules is that healing you is a privelage, when I run out of sp, you're on your own pal. Don't expect me to keep you alive after that. Having said that, I rarely run out of sp without reaching another shrine or finishing the quest. There are some exceptions like 'Hiding in Plain Sight' or 'Tear of Dhakaan'. It just depends on how reliable your party is at keeping themselves alive and how you distribute your heals among everyone.

[Sweyn]

Holy thread Necro

[GottDDO]

Clericing is expensive. For those who have never played one and have never looked at prices, Cure Serious Wands run around 12-13,000 gold, Raise Dead scrolls are around 6,000. My cleric just made level 7, the minimum to use RD scrolls - I bought about 15 which seriously depleted my cash supply.

I just finished Delera's with a pug. I almost declined the invite, but figured I could use the XP. We ran elite with mostly 6s and 7s, so did have to work for it. At the end of part 2 I told the group that I was running low on wands and money. The mana-sponge Paladin 5 who kept running headlong into everything responds by sending a group message saying "someone give her something" but doesn't do so himself. Three of the other five people responded and each gave me a wand (ironically, they were the ones who were the least demanding of my services!) I went through 5 CSW and 2 CMW wands and 2 raise scrolls (both scrolls on pally sponge-boy.)

Anyway, this reinforced why I generally do not play my cleric much outside my guild; it's just too expensive. When I play my other toons, I usually offer the clerics wands or gold, even when I play self-healing types. I don't always give them stuff at the beginning, I have played with some clerics who would rather fight than heal, but if someone is really working to keep everyone up, I will defintely give them a wand or plat at some point.

OK, rant over, just needed to vent

I disagree.

Playing a cleric isn't more expensive than any other class.

First of all, clerics aren't nearly as dependant on equipment as a melee, so one usually doesn't have to spend the same type of pp on gear when playing a cleric.

Secondly, how many clerics carry around over a full backpack of potions? (sadly, not many of any class do this either nowadays)

I just played a cleric to 20, and I hardly used any wands. If you're efficient with your spellpoints, and you make sure you have an adequate SP pool, then you don't have to whip several wands.

But here's the most important thing: You have to build to be a decent healer. If you don't build your cleric to be a good healer, and you join a group that needs you to be one, expect to run out of SP quickly.

[nanoblue]

I have a simple rule, when healing a group with my FvS, i heal as long as i have sp, after that your on your own, i notify the group before hand of this and that usually works great. I do not carry any wands or potions with me either to heal people with.