Borror Z'rro - Dwarven Defender

[Mhykke]

Now THAT is a blanket statement. Teamwork is king, not AC builds. As for "proof", you have none. My point is it will take a LOOONG time to find items to get him to a high 50's AC. My point has not and can not be proven wrong. That's just fact. Without any help (aka equipment) from guildies and friends Sual, your build will definately struggle. You will do ok in lower levels, but just wait till you get to 14 elite quests. They will slice right through you. Just trying to offer a counter opinion.

Leslie, if you could do a slot by slot breakdown of the equipment and why it'd be hard to get, that'd be great. Thanks.

[Sual]

I put 2 points into tumble and my rank is 2.5 and I cannot tumble 0.o, i even took my tower shield off and i couldnt.

[Borror0]

I put 2 points into tumble and my rank is 2.5 and I cannot tumble 0.o, i even took my tower shield off and i couldnt.

You score must be positive. So you must have a high Dex. I can on Borror with a 20 Dex I'm at 0 Tumble, so when I'm hit by Heroism/Greater Heroism, I can Tumble.

[Sual]

You score must be positive. So you must have a high Dex. I can on Borror with a 20 Dex I'm at 0 Tumble, so when I'm hit by Heroism/Greater Heroism, I can Tumble.

I am -11 total mod :P, Also just wondering if I should take like the +1dex to armor instead of like +1Dr to shield and the 25% chance to not take item damage becuase i dont block too much at this level and all my gear sucks, I could just reset at a higher level.

[Borror0]

I am -11 total mod :P, Also just wondering if I should take like the +1dex to armor instead of like +1Dr to shield and the 25% chance to not take item damage becuase i dont block too much at this level and all my gear sucks, I could just reset at a higher level.

Well, if you get a +X Tumble item and that could get you a positive Tumble, why not.

There are much better things to grab first. Tumble is more of a bonus than anything else. Mostly serve to repositionate yourself.. while blocking. also helps in the Reaver raid to avoid damage from fall. Worry about Saves, AC and HP first. DR and Tumble comes much later.

[Borror0]

Now THAT is a blanket statement. Teamwork is king, not AC builds.

Skills are key, not teamwork. If you don't beleive me.. you weren't in the same PuG as me this morning..

AC is knig in the first 12 level. This is not a blanket statement. Even back in module 3, THF fighter were struggling for more AC. TWFers and THFers were carrying their Shield clickie preciously. There were fights in PuGs about putting a shield on. Barbarian were unloved, because of their too low AC. Maldini was fighting everytime, a bit like I'm forced to do here. He had to argue with AC-men that DPS was good. Now, it's different. Mobs to-hit got higher and.. we got nothing to raise our AC. So now, it,s pretty much "focus on it or don't bother at all", but that doesn't mean that focusing on AC is worthless.

You even acknowledged this yourself:

I just dont see an intimitank as being nearly as significant now as it was in Mod 1-2 days, and its becoming less important and much much harder to build.

See! AC was key, they didn't touch the quests, AC still is.

[Strykersz]

Some tips for leveling up on the cheap.

You can get by without using Mithral Full Plate by taking more ranks of dwarven/fighter armor mastery, in lieu of some of the other enhancements. Axe damage and Shield Mastery can wait until you're able to use your entire dex bonus to AC. Without any +dex gear, you'd need one level of armor mastery to max it. Once you get a +2 dex item(Min level 2, check the AH for a cheap one), you'll need another rank. You can hold off on a third rank until you get a +4 dex item(they're min level 9, so you can hold off a while on the third rank). Remember that a tower shield caps dex also. You will most likely be unable to afford a +5 Mithral Tower shield, so plan around getting Tower Shield Mastery 2(it gives you a +4 max dex bonus with a normal tower shield, you will really only need level 2 until you get a +6 dex item or a +2 tome). The Tower shield will most likely be unnecessary for leveling up until you hit Giant Hold.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Skills are key, not teamwork.

Wow the "great" Borror0 actually promoting a notion that teamwork is not key. See, a lot of "great" players forget the basics, and teamwork is usually the first "skill" to be ignored. See the parties I lead, I PROMOTE teamwork. To me, perfecting your playstyle and working together with your party are the most important aspects of playing the game. Finding items are nothing short of a gamble. The skills you talk about are part of a building process. Most players build their characters without ever looking at a blueprint. Imagine if we tried to build our homes in real life without looking at a blueprint. Mistakes will happen. With careful planning BEFORE you begin building your build, your characters' skills (feats and enhancements) just fall right into place as you level..

Perfecting your playstyle and working together with your party are the most important aspects of playing the game to me because they take work. You are always getting better. Or you take them for granted. Playstyle and teamwork are what's key. Skills, for the well prepared among us, are expected.

AC is knig in the first 12 level. This is not a blanket statement. Mobs to-hit got higher and.. we got nothing to raise our AC. So now, it,s pretty much "focus on it or don't bother at all", but that doesn't mean that focusing on AC is worthless.

This is the first time I've seen you admit that AC is only "king" up the 12th level. Im going to take a wild guess here, and assume your self-supposed superiority diminishes greatly after 12. Finally you are being honest. You know full well you must rely on your party to do the majority of the killing after 12. You are also getting hit much harder in level 13-14 quests, especially on elite. AC isnt king in level 13 and 14, and I enjoy bursting your bubble, so I will... AC isnt king in levels 1-12 either. You cant hit squat in the early levels, and you dont have the AC yet so you get battered. Healing yourself is your only skill early on. You are a wlking medic, and you are your most popular patient!

As for the "Mobs to-hit got higher and.. we got nothing to raise our AC" comment... I got but one word for you.. Waaah. Kill it first before it kills you, and dont ask anyone else to do it for ya!!

[Borror0]

Wow the "great" Borror0 actually promoting a notion that teamwork is not key. See, a lot of "great" players forget the basics, and teamwork is usually the first "skill" to be ignored. See the parties I lead, I PROMOTE teamwork.

Sorry, skills is what get a quest done. Take 6 awesome players, put them into the same party and they'll get anyquest done, no matter how hard it is, if it's possible, they'll get it done. They wouldn't need to talk, and they'll pwn the quest... because like you said yourself, most of this game is skills. The more skilled you are, the easier the game as, as simple as that. Now, take 6 awful players and get them to play as a team, incredible communication.. they'll never get the quest done, except by recalling 3/4 times for mana or wipe purpose. The trigger-happy sorcerer will blow all his mana on 4-5 Firewall per encounters when one is usually enough. The cleric will not be able to keep everyone healed. The sword and board fighter with a 42 AC will be using a slashing weapon on the DR/Blunt mobs. The quest will be a nightmare.

Now, if you look somewhere in the middle, yes teamwork is great. Makes quests easier.. but without skills, it's pointless. Without saying I'm "TEH UB3R", I can safely say I've got skills over the average PuG. At that point, you can get most the quest on yourself. You can drag the rest of the party with you. You can do a lot by yourself, and tell others what they need to do. I've lead PuGs in XC (my favorite quest), some were made of awesome players. Said a word left and right, they knew where to go, what to do. Voice chat was used to tell jokes and have fun. Other PuGs were a little less good, but far from awful players. they needed more direction. Do this, do that. I needed to drink more potions to keep myself alive, but the quest was done and we had some fun. That's what counts.

Then.. you got the bad PuG. The cleric doesn't heal you even after being at half HP for like... a minute? Everyone dies left anfd right. they run into trap. You tell them to be careful.. they don't. They waste their SPs on.. you don't even know. Yes, teamwork is important, but skills is even most. Past a point, teamwork isn't needed. You do the right thnig, no coimmunication needed. You're playing cleverly ennough for barely communication to be needed except maybe a few keywords.

To me, perfecting your playstyle and working together with your party are the most important aspects of playing the game. Finding items are nothing short of a gamble. The skills you talk about are part of a building process. Most players build their characters without ever looking at a blueprint. Imagine if we tried to build our homes in real life without looking at a blueprint. Mistakes will happen. With careful planning BEFORE you begin building your build, your characters' skills (feats and enhancements) just fall right into place as you level..

Perfecting your playstyle and working together with your party are the most important aspects of playing the game to me because they take work. You are always getting better. Or you take them for granted. Playstyle and teamwork are what's key. Skills, for the well prepared among us, are expected.

Gameplay arguement again huh? If you can't play your character half decently.. don't play him at all or learn how.

This is the first time I've seen you admit that AC is only "king" up the 12th level. Im going to take a wild guess here, and assume your self-supposed superiority diminishes greatly after 12. Finally you are being honest.

Er.. what?

I've never hid that DPS was king after level 12. But like Maldini once defended, it's not because it's less used that it's not efficient. It's not as easy, you got to know what you're doing and it takes a little more gear to be as good. So yes, DPS is easier. Yes, AC is useless on most build. I'd make any other character and would never bother about AC. I might to twink my characters so they get decent AC while levleing up, but they will have 10 + Dexterity modifier at level 14!

DPS is what makes you reach the end of the quest. I've explained it to you many times before, mostly when you said that I should be shield blocking 24h/24. Yes a barbarian is effective, and with even less gear than Borror will need to be.. but that doesn't make the build unplayable to the barbarian the most uber class in the game.

You know full well you must rely on your party to do the majority of the killing after 12. You are also getting hit much harder in level 13-14 quests, especially on elite. AC isnt king in level 13 and 14, and I enjoy bursting your bubble, so I will... AC isnt king in levels 1-12 either. You cant hit squat in the early levels, and you dont have the AC yet so you get battered. Healing yourself is your only skill early on. You are a wlking medic, and you are your most popular patient!

Sorry, but I consider barely needing healing at all pretty cool. I consider runnnig healerless pretty nice.

I find topping myself with potions pretty cool also.

As for the "Mobs to-hit got higher and.. we got nothing to raise our AC" comment... I got but one word for you.. Waaah. Kill it first before it kills you, and dont ask anyone else to do it for ya!!

Ok, I'll quote Riot on that one :

B- man.... I think the problem is with trying to explain mana efficiency to a Barbarian....

That's like ice skating uphill.

Teach? no... maybe not entirely.... TRAIN? yeah... Maldini's been trained! =P

[BigBadBarry]

Hey Borro0,

Thoughts on taking a 3rd lvl of Pally and ending up 13F/3P?

My intimitank is about to hit lvl 11 and thinking the 3rd lvl of pally will add Fear immunity, an extra LOH (which for 60 odd hp a pop is pretty decent help) and I'm told an extra +1 AC from the paly aura (is this from an enhancement or auto btw?).

Enjoying the build to...did Madstone normal with a group of 8-10's (8 sorc, 9 cleric, 2 defensive lvl 10 tanks and 2 DPS fighters) and the whole intimitank concept works so well in a team enviroment.

BBB

[Auran82]

I concur with the 3rd level of paladin.

Currently 3 Paladin/9 fighter

Changed a few of the stats around slightly (slightly higher dex and con, slightly less Cha) and changed some feats (took Khopesh proficiency and Improved trip) shying away a bit from being a true intimitank (slightly less intimidate, more ac(slightly)/hp/dps with the khopeshs)

It's a fun build and I am finding that a highish AC is very useful even in the later levels (Madstone normal at level 11 with 5 level 8 - 11 characters or Trial by fire on hard) though he is only currently sitting at 46ac (when not using CE).

I found the trade off with taking a level of paladin Vs fighter is that you lose one feat (and access to greater weapon specialisation) and gain: Fear Immunity, Disease Immunity, +1 Saves and AC (Aura, with enhancements) and an extra LOH (which is useful in a pinch)

Just realised that BBB and I are talking about the same madstone run. I was the other intimitank.

[Borror0]

First of all, I must say that I'm sorry for the delayed responce. I read your two posts a while ago but didn't have tiem to answer back and then totally forgot about it with Christmas time and all. Very sorry. Now, the answers.

Thoughts on taking a 3rd lvl of Pally and ending up 13F/3P?

I've thought about it when making the build, then it has been brought a few times by people trying the build. Going 3 paladin makes you win the following:

Fear Immunity:

While it is nice, it is a very minor gain. I keep Greater Heroism on me all the time. Either I have an Arcane caster throw it on me, or I use a Planar Gird. If I ever forget to hit myself with GH, there is always Remove Fear potions that are quite cheap too. So really, not the reason to multiclass at all.

Disease Immunity:

Again, same kind of answer than Fear Immunity. Either you got a Disease Immunity item (after all it is possible to get a Disease Immunity Necklace of Protection) or you got potions for it. REally not important, it is nice, I agree. But really, nothnig potions can't cure.

Resistance of Good I:

Cheaper than Dwarven Spell Defense III and works against non-spells and non-spell-like abilities. However, I'm pretty sure I'm always flooring my saves. I'll wait for module 6 to come before saying that again, but I'm pretty sure it'll be the same. I'd even say that Dwarven Spell Defense is currently overkill. I'm probably going to step in a quest with a friendly cleric and try to get my ass kicked to determinate their average spell DCs and adjust myself around it to save some APs.

Extra Lay on Hands I:

My LoH go for 72 a pop, nice. I try to keep them for these "oh ****!!!" moments when they make a difference between life and death. however, I'm not so sure I'd invest in those. they cost 2 APs and I've probably got more to gain out of my APs.

Bulwark of Good I:

Ok, this is the only reason I consider the third paladin level. Other are nice, like I said, but only bonuses. Yes, +1 AC is nice. Yes, AC is the point of the build. So yes this is something to consider strongly. However, I don't liek to multiclass for enhancements. Enhancements are soemthing Turbine can change at will withotu any problem. If they feel like removing Bulwark of Good, they can. If they want to move it to level 2, they can. And that is sort of the issue I have with it. Yes, 1 AC is nice, but they promised lots of changes for paladins in module 7, so that could be a possibility.

I'm also waiting for level 15-16 class enhancements, I mean, there is got to be a few, right? Rigth now there is none posted in the WDAs, I hope it's not the case.. because that'd be plain silly. I think that it's too soon to take a descision yet. We don't know how much AC will be needed in the Vale of Twilight, nor the kind of saves it'll take. Right now, my plan is Cleave/Great Cleave. I'll also probably hold taking my 16th level until I get a good feel of the quests and see al the new named items... they might have added somethnig for AC this time. I know I wouldn't mind googles that gives an insight bonus to AC (and saves too).

So, in short, I'm considerating it, but it's not where I'm heading too yet. Too much unknown to take a descision yet.

I'd like to finish that I'm glad you like to be intimitanks, after all, we're here to the fun. I'll update my views on level 15-16 as soon I know more about it.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Extra Lay on Hands I:
Bulwark of Good I:
Yes, +1 AC is nice. Yes, AC is the point of the build.

I think going the extra pali level here makes sense. When I play my Pali, I always says crack comes in TWO flavors, LOH and Haste! For an intimitank who is constantly getting pounded on to NOT invest in extra LOH you can always count on AND a +1AC Just doesnt make sense to me. My intimitank invested in 4 pali levels, and of course the extra LOH. Why waste pots and wait for buffs when you can have it automatically, without cost or wait... Going 3 pali levels in this build just makes sense. Who cares if you lose weapon spec? Pad your strength, not your weakness. Your biggest strength is defense.

That being said, its all about playstyle. You went for a better balance in offense vs defense. But in my opinion, when you are playing defense, you need ALL the defense you can get. In fact, thats why I went Warforged, I get "auto immunities" as well

[Borror0]

I think going the extra pali level here makes sense. [...] Who cares if you lose weapon spec? Pad your strength, not your weakness. Your biggest strength is defense.

That being said, its all about playstyle. You went for a better balance in offense vs defense. But in my opinion, when you are playing defense, you need ALL the defense you can get.

Yes, never said it didn't. I've said I'll have to evaluate the benefits of it versus the costs. The problem is not to know if it's a valuable option or not, but rather if it's the best one. I can say that, in a way, going for a third level of paladin is the safest option. More is AC is never bad. However, you must always look at what you loose for that AC. As an intimitank, there is a notion of "overkill". If you're flooring intimidate, why invest in it more? If you're floring your saves.. how about swaping your feats and/or enhancements? Do mobs always hit you on a 20, maybe drop Dodge then? I'm not saying we,ll be there, I'm not saying AC will suddenly "gain more value" again and lower AC will be more efficient. I'm simpyl saying that this kind of build takes a little more than just adding more.

On a DPS build like your fighter, it's much easier. More DPS is always good. However, on an intimitank it's not quite the same. You much have soem sort of DPS. Actually, not enough DPS was one of your first comment on my build, now you're telling me to drop it even lower? More DPS, on any build is always good, I think we can agree on that. Now, do I give up too much for the DPS I gain? I don't know, you don't know. That is the problem, we'll be arriving in a new enviroment. New spells, two levels higher, new mobs. With a build like this, you simply cannot throw feats or class break up like this and say it'll be perfect.. mostly when all rests on enhancements. What do we know of level 15 and 16 enhcancements? Nothing. There are probably some, they are simply not in the WDAs yet.. because not a single one seems very unlikelly.

Now, you're also telling me to go full defense.. then why do you think Riot's build is superior? I have higher AC thanks to Aura of Good and higher saves than him thanks to Divine Grace. Riot's build is more versatile than mine, that is his main strength. So please, stop contracting yourself.

One last time, I'm being very wary about what to do next. We clearly haven't seen all the enhancements, nor do we have seen the (5) quests the devs have planned for us. We know nothing about what's next... so I'll wait to see what it looks like. All I can answer right now is that I'm more than satisfied of my AC (58 AC with Haste and Barkskin potions), can't remember the last time I failed a save agaisnt a spell.. so, all I'd need now is more DPS. If I the new module asks me for even more AC, I'll go get it. If the new module asks me for more saves, I'll go get them, but right now, in the current module we are in.. more DPS. More AC or more saves would be overkill, so why get it and lose something better? And we don't know, the devs might but in some really sweet level 16 enhancements and those who took three levels of paladins will be biting their tongue. We are in unknown.. all we can do is speculate.

When I play my Pali, I always says crack comes in TWO flavors, LOH and Haste! For an intimitank who is constantly getting pounded on to NOT invest in extra LOH you can always count on AND a +1AC [...] Why waste pots and wait for buffs when you can have it automatically, without cost or wait...

Well, I can talk about LoHs on a capped paladin from experience as I had one. I don't see it as being "crack", not even addicting. Yes, they are life savers. Yes, they are useful... but not game breaking for me. As for why "waste for poitions", well the answer is because I keep my LoHs for "Use or Die" moments on both Borror and on my capped paladin. Oh, and at shrine, just before shrining, when I want some HP back... but I rarely shrine on Borror nor do I use my LoHs. Maybe it'd be worth it for someone else, but not for me. Anyway, like you said yourself "healing is readily available in this game", potions aren't going to ruin me.

[Slayer918]

Yes, never said it didn't. I've said I'll have to evaluate the benefits of it versus the costs. The problem is not to know if it's a valuable option or not, but rather if it's the best one. I can say that, in a way, going for a third level of paladin is the safest option. More is AC is never bad. However, you must always look at what you loose for that AC. As an intimitank, there is a notion of "overkill". If you're flooring intimidate, why invest in it more? If you're floring your saves.. how about swaping your feats and/or enhancements? Do mobs always hit you on a 20, maybe drop Dodge then? I'm not saying we,ll be there, I'm not saying AC will suddenly "gain more value" again and lower AC will be more efficient. I'm simpyl saying that this kind of build takes a little more than just adding more.

On a DPS build like your fighter, it's much easier. More DPS is always good. However, on an intimitank it's not quite the same. You much have soem sort of DPS. Actually, not enough DPS was one of your first comment on my build, now you're telling me to drop it even lower? More DPS, on any build is always good, I think we can agree on that. Now, do I give up too much for the DPS I gain? I don't know, you don't know. That is the problem, we'll be arriving in a new enviroment. New spells, two levels higher, new mobs. With a build like this, you simply cannot throw feats or class break up like this and say it'll be perfect.. mostly when all rests on enhancements. What do we know of level 15 and 16 enhcancements? Nothing. There are probably some, they are simply not in the WDAs yet.. because not a single one seems very unlikelly.

Now, you're also telling me to go full defense.. then why do you think Riot's build is superior? I have higher AC thanks to Aura of Good and higher saves than him thanks to Divine Grace. Riot's build is more versatile than mine, that is his main strength. So please, stop contracting yourself.

One last time, I'm being very wary about what to do next. We clearly haven't seen all the enhancements, nor do we have seen the (5) quests the devs have planned for us. We know nothing about what's next... so I'll wait to see what it looks like. All I can answer right now is that I'm more than satisfied of my AC (58 AC with Haste and Barkskin potions), can't remember the last time I failed a save agaisnt a spell.. so, all I'd need now is more DPS. If I the new module asks me for even more AC, I'll go get it. If the new module asks me for more saves, I'll go get them, but right now, in the current module we are in.. more DPS. More AC or more saves would be overkill, so why get it and lose something better? And we don't know, the devs might but in some really sweet level 16 enhancements and those who took three levels of paladins will be biting their tongue. We are in unknown.. all we can do is speculate.

Thats why intimitanks are so fun to build IMO... have to get as close to the plateaus of AC, Saves, HP, and other defensive benefits while trying not to go too far overboard and have as much into DPS as possible

I'm not sure why you're worrying about level 15-16 enhancements seeing as at most you'll have 14 levels of fighter

[Borror0]

I'm not sure why you're worrying about level 15-16 enhancements seeing as at most you'll have 14 levels of fighter

Yeah, but you must look into the future too. If they is a very cool level 16 enhancement, some might not be able to get it for a while.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Actually, not enough DPS was one of your first comment on my build, now you're telling me to drop it even lower?

I initially pointed out where your DPS deficiencies were, in response to your silly notion that you could equal the DPS of my DPS fighter (in my thread).

Now, you're also telling me to go full defense.. then why do you think Riot's build is superior? I have higher AC thanks to Aura of Good and higher saves than him thanks to Divine Grace. Riot's build is more versatile than mine, that is his main strength. So please, stop contracting yourself.

I did not say to go "full defense", I said that LOH and haste is like crack. In highest level content, and in future mods, I sincerely believe your build would benefit best with the extra LOH. More defense, less DPS. Leave the bulk of the slaying to DPS fighters and barbs. As for who's better Riot or your build... you keep pressing on that your build is superior to Riots build... to me the road isnt as clear... he has several advantages over you, maybe the biggest one being he's more in tune with his defensive and blocking role. You are swinging your weapon more than Riot does, opening you up for more attacks more often, and on 14 elite quests, than means more pain... for you. I'd guess he stays alive longer than you do.. Just a guess though...

In closing, you say you've hit your ceiling for saves... you never fail a save.. well, you can never hit a ceiling on healing. Healing may be readily available, but not always WHERE YOU NEED IT... especially for those of us who like running around pis*ing peeps off (intimi-tank...) More LOH...

[Borror0]

As for who's better Riot or your build... you keep pressing on that your build is superior to Riots build...

First, I never said that, I said mine is more defensive. More AC, more Saves. It's a fact, just look at the numbers. However, never said mine was better.

the biggest one being he's more in tune with his defensive and blocking role. You are swinging your weapon more than Riot does, opening you up for more attacks more often, and on 14 elite quests, than means more pain... for you. I'd guess he stays alive longer than you do..

Ok, I don't understand what you mean by this? How would I swing my weapon any more often?

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Ok, I don't understand what you mean by this? How would I swing my weapon any more often?

When you hear Riot promote his build, hes always talking defense.. he's talking shield blocking... in other words, he's keeping his AC maxed, whereas you are talking about DPS. While you are swinging your weapon, you are easier to hit than Riot, who will probably be shield bashing... You are swinging your weapon more because you are taking all these DPS feats and are overtly craving more DPS... and that means you are constantly swinging that weapon, dont deny....... testify!

[Borror0]

While you are swinging your weapon, you are easier to hit than Riot, who will probably be shield bashing

Ok, first this is not a question of build, but of playstyle. Riott and Borror have the same Blocking DR! You can even do the math, we have a nice page here on the DDOwiki.

Now, do I swing most of the time? Yes. Do I shield block a lot? Yes. there is a time for both, soemtiems DPS is better.. soemtimes it's sheild blocking. I'm sure Riot does the same do. Now, you say that when I talk about my build I talk DPS whereas Riot talks more about Shield Blocknig, maybe. But that doesn't mean I'm not Shield Blocking. When you got a huge load of aggro on you, shield blocking is good. Same for incorp mobs while standing in a FW or in a nuking sorc heavy party where everything gets CoC'd. S

hield Blocking is a very important part of a intimitank, but if all you do is SB... not much better. It depends on many factor.