Borror Z'rro - Dwarven Defender

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

You just proved that you have no understanding of the way an intimitank works

Dont kid yourself like that ... Now as for Riot or Maldini's intimtanks (their intimitanks I consider to be the best models currently available... and you were #3 before this silliness about Power Attack, Cleave and Greater Cleave) I see NO CLEAVE LINE whatsoever. Your slashing line should grant you plenty of DPS punch. If Weapon Focus : Slashing Weapons, Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons, Improved Critical : Slashing Weapons, Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons, Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons are not enough feats to supply satisfactory DPS for you, then the Cleave line aint gonna be THAT MUCH MORE of a help to you.

Anyway.... I think my thread has gone to your head Borror0, cause you are starting to look more and more like a DPS guy, not an intimitank. You are seriously crossing over into hybrid territory now... and walking your intimitank off any "classic intimitank model list" that I would recommend anyone look at. Just my 2 pp

but if nothing dies you will never finish a quest

Ohh and as far as "nothing dying".... you have an entire party willin to get that kill for you, including a very hungry Aandre Dont worry, Leeroy Jenkins wont let you die .......

[Deragoth]

Lots of good info here... lots of blood and body parts laying around, too... but lots of good info.

Thanks Borror0.

[Borror0]

Dont kid yourself like that ... Now as for Riot or Maldini's intimtanks (their intimitanks I consider to be the best models currently available... and you were #3 before this silliness about Power Attack, Cleave and Greater Cleave) I see NO CLEAVE LINE whatsoever.

A long time ago, Riot did mention taking Power attack and Cleave as a possibility.

Your slashing line should grant you plenty of DPS punch. If Weapon Focus : Slashing Weapons, Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons, Improved Critical : Slashing Weapons, Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons, Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons are not enough feats to supply enough DPS for you, then the Cleave line aint gonna be THAT MUCH MORE of a help to you.

Ok, listen to this:

A floor Intimidate.
I can't remember the last tiem I failed a save on anything but a 1.
I cannot get my AC any higher.
If I wipe (in a PuG), I always die after the cleric. I cannot, however, say I'm the last to die... as aggro is on my 100% of the time. So, HP is fine. The cleric can keep me healed unless he is sleeping at the keyboard.

So, what do you want me to do?

Grab more toughness? HP is fine.

Mobility? Don't feel like tumbling around.

Spring Attack? A possibility, but no... wait! That would increase my DPS too!!

Quickdraw? Why? To change of weapon faster? No, it'd increase my DPS... can't do that.

Improved Shield Mastery? I'm quite fond of the Blocking DR I have now, no thanks.

Improved Shield Bashing? Tried it, the DPS it does is too ridduclous to be worth it. Useless sometimes, but too situational.

Power Critical? That would be more DPS.

Iron Will (it'll have been switched out for Force of Personnality)? I never fail myself right now, they'll even be higher with FoP, so why would I want more?

DPS is the thingg I want to increase now, my AC cannot go any hgiher from feats. My HP are fine and they'll improve as I'll spend more APs into them. When you can intimitank well, you have to focus on other things. Why do you think we have the whole slashing line? More DPS. And by the way, weren't you the one to say "Borroo loves his GWS:Slash. Of course I'd agree with you though."? Seems like you're contradicting yourself.

Anyway.... I think my thread has gone to your head Borror0, cause you are starting to look more and more like a DPS guy, not an intimitank. You are seriously crossing over into hybrid territory now... and walking your intimitank off any "classic intimitank model list" that I would recommend anyone look at. Just my 2 pp

No there is something you seem to have forgotten, beause you once had that speech. This game is mostly about DPS. You end a quests by killing mobs in your way. Of course, I mainly contribute by avoiding damage to the group, but if I only do that, I'm not playing my build to the fullest of its capacities. That would be playing a cleric with full wisdom and never casting anything but heals on the party. That cleric should cast a few Greater Command, the group would need less heals. He could cast Harm on red named, the fight would be shorter, which would result in less heals and in more loot per time spent. Same thing here. I could reach a little more AC by building myself differently, getting even higher saves, more HP, higher blocking DR... but would that make my build better?

Not really.

You have to put priorities. Unless they add new interesting feats, I'll probably go with Cleave and Great Cleave.

Ohh and as far as "nothing dying".... you have an entire party willin to get that kill for you, including a very hungry Aandre

Aandre eats? That's why he took blunt focus? So his molar tooth could be more efficient too?

Seriously, you were the one blaming me for counting on the party a few pages ago, where has that gone to?

Lots of good info here... lots of blood and body parts laying around, too... but lots of good info.

Don't worry about the blood, Leslie and I got a good deal with a really good cleric. We're... good customers of him.

But yeah, I'm glad it's still open and glad it is of help to you.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Don't worry about the blood, Leslie and I got a good deal with a really good cleric. We're... good customers of him.

I sure do... hey I even sleep with one..... Calling all cars.... Dr Howard... Dr Fine... Dr Howard........................!!!!!

As for Borror0, Im growing to like these pitty pats (darn puns) sure more entertaining than Hannity and Combs

[Mhykke]

I cannot try to compete with the DPS dudes in kill count. Thats not a palis role

Depends on the paladin.

[Borror0]

Depends on the paladin.

Indeed. My friend has a THF Human pally and she loves it. Amazingly high red numbers and good support capacities.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Depends on the paladin.

Oh I have shocked quite a few fighters and barbs with what my Pali can do on offense, especially against undead... but my Paladin stands proud in a supporting role first and foremost...

[Epitome]

I am sorry Borro Zrro, but the high end dps whether it is barbarian or other high end dps build does get through the quest quicker. I don't know what type of tanks/players/casters you run with, but high dps trumps in terms of speed a lower dps anyday. Axer is right if you have quick killing tanks and especially with a lovely bard the party does not take as much damage because the monsters are dead.. The defensive tank is not a bass guitar, but a crutch in a truely dps party because why not have 6 party members which slice the enemies to bits before they can respond in kind. Its blitzkrieg baby - that is the strategy. In mod 2 ac mattered and the intimitank had a place, but now even with mod5s crit protected monsters ac is still a lesser quality. Only hope is mod6 bro or you can just keep living in the world you live in.

I find this untrue personally. I've played intimitanks since mod 1 - 2. The only thing that has sucked bad is Mod 5 because of the shadows, wraiths, wheeps which any melee will have a hard time one on one with in elite.

As for kill counts on my intimitank? I usually win them or am a close number 2. Its not difficult and thats with CE going the whole time. I can see how a person who doesn't know what they are doing would be a crutch playing a intimitank; specifically if they aren't geared for it. I know with a bloodstone, decent str, madstone boots, and some good khopeshes I can hit for over a hundred easy. I also give the barbs I've played with an opportunity to stay on their feat and at least try to give me a challenge on killing things.

[Borror0]

especially against undead

Paladin do no more damage to undead than any other class, expect that the cap between barbarian is shorter because they loose the effectiveness of Crit rage II.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I find this untrue personally. I've played intimitanks since mod 1 - 2. The only thing that has sucked bad is Mod 5 because of the shadows, wraiths, wheeps which any melee will have a hard time one on one with in elite.

You arent built purely defensive if you are flipping lead kill counts with a barb. Then again, my DPS fighter beats barbs routinely. Im gonna tell you a secret, shhhh, dont tell anyone...

Many players that build barbarians in DDO don't know how to build/play the class properly. Say that in a barb forum they'll go nuts (hey they went nuts in my thread too, which is in the fighter forum!) but its true. You arent saying much if you can beat a barbarian, many fighters of all stripes can.

However, wisely built/played DPS barbs (or fighters for that matter) you are NOT beating routinely...

Now if its incorporals you need help with, Aandre may let you borrow his +5 Ghost Touch Great Axe of Righteousness or his Phase Hammer if tempted (aka bribed)

[Borror0]

Many players that build barbarians in DDO don't know how to build/play the class properly. Say that in a barb forum they'll go nuts (hey they went nuts in my thread too, which is in the fighter forum!) but its true.

You know, it's the case for every class in the whoel freaking game. And honestly, barbarians are the hardest to mess up. Very little choices to make and every oen and their mom can max Str and Con and then go to town. This is what I said to you many times and wouldn't listen. Glad you finally understood, or sort of. Many peole don't know how to build a character or don't know how to gear themselves up or tdon't play that brightly... comparing to PuGies isn't a good idea.

I also doubt that any Intimitank would lead the kill count that often agaisnt THF, but I could see in PuGs. But if it's all Sword and Board... that's possible to lead if better geared.

Now if its incorporals you need help with, Aandre may let you borrow his +5 Ghost Touch Great Axe of Righteousness or his Phase Hammer if tempted (aka bribed)

Huh? I don't get what you mean. Are you bragging about your gear or trying to make a point? Because you're being deadly unclear.

[Epitome]

Don't want to derail Borr's sweet character build thread...

Toon I was talking about is a mirror image of Riot (too impatient to get crafty and re-invent the wheel myself). The reason I can compete with kills is because I'm not doing to much shield blocking anymore in addition to haveing all the human improved recoveries I get hit very infrequently and can usually pot heal myself (anywhere from 30-38 points of healing) and keep trucking on.

My argument about mod 5's incorporeals is that they suck for any melee. I've seen alot of guildies not really care to take their melee toons in unless they need favor or sigil peices in the more incorporeal heavy instances. I've got the juicey weapons to burn them down but they are likely to burn down 95+% of melee toons that try to complete it without firewalls or blade barriers (how many melee parties go thrash the Temple of Vol?) However I still find intimidate and shield block (which shouldn't work against incorporeals but it does) very useful while these mobs are cooking in the firewalls.

[Borror0]

I've got the juicey weapons to burn them down but they are likely to burn down 95+% of melee toons that try to complete it without firewalls or blade barriers (how many melee parties go thrash the Temple of Vol?) However I still find intimidate and shield block (which shouldn't work against incorporeals but it does) very useful while these mobs are cooking in the firewalls.

Agreed. 100%

If one day melee damage becomes totally enefficient, well intimitnaks will still have their job.

And yes, DToV and yes, firewall is the incorp killer. They usually barely have time to get to me, they sometimes get an hit, two at most... and it's usually a miss.

A melee simpluy doesn't have time to compete in DPS in those cases.

[sigtrent]

Topics

Uber DPS Wins: More or less. Offense is primary in DDO and D&D although defense has its place. Sadly the monsters arn't clever enough to truly exploit our weaknesses. anyhow... super uber DPS monsters are more the exception than the rule (as are super defensive intimitanks) Most people (no matter if all your leet palls are super cool) have pretty medeocre characters and items and parties can benefit from any specilized character that joins.

Intimitanks doing damage: Doing damage is good. Arguing agasint that is silly. Mr tank my find himslef the only good DPS character in a party. You could blame the party for that but none the less its nice if you can do it.

Cleave: I suggested it not only as a way to do damage... not only as an additional way to grab some agro.. but primarily as a defensive measure. Paralyzed mobs can't hit you. Cursed mobs have a harder time hitting you. Destructed mobs are easier for your palls to kill, dead mobs can't hurt you, weaker mobs do less damage and hit less often.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I've got the juicey weapons to burn them down but they are likely to burn down 95+% of melee toons that try to complete it without firewalls or blade barriers

I have no trouble killing incorps, but will admit I've seen MANY melees fear them (maybe even more than I've seen them fear beholders back in the day). I think we all know that firewalls/blade barriers make life much easier in mod 5 necropolis.

But then I like traveling in well balanced parties...

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Cleave: I suggested it not only as a way to do damage... not only as an additional way to grab some agro.. but primarily as a defensive measure. Paralyzed mobs can't hit you. Cursed mobs have a harder time hitting you. Destructed mobs are easier for your palls to kill, dead mobs can't hurt you, weaker mobs do less damage and hit less often.

Agreed 100%. But borror0 wants it soley to increase his DPS. Im pretty sure he will find after testing that defensively using cleave with a paralyzer, is extremely effective, as I've already told him. Defense should be the primary use, unless he finds himself the ONLY melee in the party... then all bets are off and he can cleave his way to victory.

[Borror0]

Agreed 100%. But borror0 wants it soley to increase his DPS.

Oh God. I won't comment on that one more than to say this:

Sometimes, the best offense is a sweet mix of offense and defense.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

barbarians are the hardest to mess up. Very little choices to make and every oen and their mom can max Str and Con and then go to town. This is what I said to you many times and wouldn't listen.

You didnt get it in my thread and you dont understand it now.

If barbarians were that easy to build and play as maxing con and strength, then barbarians would lead in kill counts IN EVERY PARTY DOING EVERY QUEST ON EVERY OCCASION. That simply does not happen. Many fighters and rogues and rangers will tell you they've outkilled barbarians. You know I have. Many melees do. Many barbs dont rage properly... dont use speed to their advantage... or use their advantages to their peril, such as outrunning the clerics ability to heal him! And we all know how useful a dead barb is

And "very little choices" are the reason I prefer playing fighters over barbarians. Judging by the ratio of fighters to barbarians in the game, many agree Oh, and if Critical Rage wasnt granted on a silver platter to barbs, theyd be far less then there are now .....

[sigtrent]

You didnt get it in my thread and you dont understand it now.

It is rarely productive to tell people what they themselves said. Mostly because they already know what they said, and often folks mis-understand what others are trying to say.

If barbarians were that easy to build and play as maxing con and strength, then barbarians would lead in kill counts IN EVERY PARTY DOING EVERY QUEST ON EVERY OCCASION.

I don't really see why that is true. Gear and expereince are probably the biggest factors in the general population of character performance. The best barbarian builds are generaly pretty easy to make. You really can't go too wrong cranking up str and con. Picking good feats definately helps though. The thing is, cranking str and con is pretty intuitive. Many fighter builds are a bit more complicated requiring dex or int for meeting feat targets and the like.

Oh, and if Critical Rage wasnt granted on a silver platter to barbs, theyd be far less then there are now .

All said and done it's a 10% crit bonus. Not exactly earth shattering, but its a nice benefit when comparing classes that are otherwise pretty close in power. It fit's the class pretty well.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

All said and done it's a 10% crit bonus. Not exactly earth shattering, but its a nice benefit when comparing classes that are otherwise pretty close in power. It fit's the class pretty well.

Critical Rage I and II is pretty sweet, and most agree it was created and put in so more folks would play barb class. I know several barbs that say Critical Rage is the ONLY reason they rolled their barbs.

BTW critical rage II increases the threat range of a weapon by +2, thats pretty hard for a fighter to overcome.