Borror Z'rro - Dwarven Defender

[Borror0]

Thats just ridiculous. Again, if you dont play a lot, your ARE NOT going to get all this stuff. Not happening. You "don't play a lot" but find all these items and have time to update the Wiki. Interesting...

Want me to list +4s items and such? It's not that much of a problem. The hardest item to get is the MFP, besides, not that hard to get. the build can be very effective with lesser items. The only needed items are Chaosguards, +5 Protection item, +5 MP and MTS. Chattering ring is a very nice bonus, but it's not gimping you. I've got my TS for less than 2kpp and I looted my MFP. I also looted my Chaoguardes after a few XC runs.

Items aren't that hard to get, you just have to look for them.

Oh, and as Madmatt has pointed out already, with the new raid drop system, the chances of someone who doesn't already have all this gear, actually pulling all this now, is just not being realistic. By the time one would pull all this stuff you are into another 2 Mods and a totally different game.

The gear listed here is not needed, but i rather the best gear than to list +4 Cha/Con/Str items. that is my choice, define me what is too much, and I'll "post" my builds accodring to youtr taste.

To defend your assumptions, the guilds I run with are FAR from gimped. Dont offend who you dont know. I've played with the best on Ghallanda. Your build is a good support build, and an ok fighter, but even you say, you are leaving most of the fighting to barbarians and I'll add the other better equipped fighters (for DPS). I just dont see an intimitank as being nearly as significant now as it was in Mod 1-2 days, and its becoming less important and much much harder to build.

I say if you got the items now, go ahead and try the build. But if you hang with us Borro, the sorcs and wizzys have already killed it, and if they didnt the DPS fighters & barbs have. I like the support guys (clerics, rogues, bards, rangers), because without them, we are nothing... But in the need-for-speed world of DDO questing, I think the intimitank fighter is a dying breed.

Yes. I am leaving most of the DPS to builds made for it, that is how it works. Until the day it'll become totally impossible for a caster/healer to run out of SP in a quest, intimitanks will be effective. We both know SP are the real DPS in the game, the more I save, the fatser the quest get done. On top of it, I also give rogue more DPS. The build is support, so what. You said you liek support builds, why do you hate the intimitanks so bad... or is it because I proved you many times your build wasn't really good... and you didn't enjoy it.

Intimitanks aren't dead, they are good. There are many people that can witness it. Maybe you're not one of them, but that's only because those you played with aren't good enough for it. Because a good intimitank will prove you he is worth a spot in any of your groups. So yes, I call your friends gimps... because they weren't capable of proving how good an intimitank is. If they're not gimps, they are bad players... or simply made-up friends.

[Mhykke]

But if you hang with us Borro, the sorcs and wizzys have already killed it, and if they didnt the DPS fighters & barbs have. I like the support guys (clerics, rogues, bards, rangers), because without them, we are nothing... But in the need-for-speed world of DDO questing, I think the intimitank fighter is a dying breed.

Umm, the OP didn't state the goal of his build was DPS. I think he'd acknowledge that casters/barbs/dps fighters/dps rogues would outkill him. That's not the point. The point is that during the quests, these DPS classes would take much less damage w/ the OP in the group, keeping aggro off of the barb/caster, freeing the cleric to offensively cast some, allowing the rogues to get multiple chunks of sneak attack damage, 6s at a time.

Walk up to a mob, intimidate, swing away....by the time intim. aggro goes away, w/ a good group, most stuff is dead or close to dead.

The intimitank can speed up quests, just in a different way than the barb or the caster.

The guy with the gear, well, I'd say it pretty much under-performs at fighting, and in gianthold elite and greater necropolis areas, still gets powned at his basic goal to keep aggro off the squishys.

If you run w/ an intimitank that still gets "powned", in any quest, on any level, while not keeping aggro off party members, then that tank either isn't built correctly, isn't played well, doesn't have the gear you claim, or a combination of the three.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I proved you many times your build wasn't really good... and you didn't enjoy it.

Actually all you did was make alot of noise. Aandre is a very active and very effective fighter on Ghallanda. I am amused you have to put down everyone who doesnt agree with your opinion. Sorry, my opinion stands.

As for insulting the people I party with once again, it wont work... you arent the only one who knows how to play the game, and you can put THAT in your wiki. Your build is a support role, plain and simple. Ive already stated I like support role toons. But I'd never have someone in my party putting down other players in MY group, so you'd be out looking for another group. Your knowledge of DDO and your knowledge of community are two different subjects. Focus more on educating people (if thats your goal) and not on degrading the people who look objectively at your build.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

If you run w/ an intimitank that still gets "powned", in any quest, on any level, while not keeping aggro off party members, then that tank either isn't built correctly, isn't played well, doesn't have the gear you claim, or a combination of the three.

Exactly my point. Building this tank correctly, with the gear borro claims we should have, right NOW as DDO stands, is a tall order, or maybe more accurately put a tall tale. Gameplay of course will make ANY build better or worse. I dont think we are in disagreement at all. My only problems with the build is how close to impossible it would be for a player to find all this loot (even the instrumental +5 mithral FP is no easy find) and the more and more limited his role has become.

An already established intimitank I have less of a problem with... and on some quests they prove really helpful, especially on a quest like Madstone. Any intimitank barb who runs the baddies in circles while the giants are safe and sound in Madstone know exactly what I'm talking about! But selling this build in DDO right now the way the loot distribution has changed and the way the quests are built and run, I feel is an awful hard sell at best. The road is waaay too long to get your guy EFFECTIVE at what he/she is supposed to be doing.... always waiting for that rare drop... hard enough to pull really good items in the game, you will be waiting for YEAARS to pull all this AC stuff (and Borro is STILL waiting .

[Mhykke]

Exactly my point. Building this tank correctly, with the gear borro claims we should have, right NOW as DDO stands, is a tall order, or maybe more accurately put a tall tale. Gameplay of course will make ANY build better or worse. I dont think we are in disagreement at all. My only problems with the build is how close to impossible it would be for a player to find all this loot (even the instrumental +5 mithral FP is no easy find) and the more and more limited his role has become.

An already established intimitank I have less of a problem with... and on some quests they prove really helpful, especially on a quest like Madstone. But selling this build in DDO right now the way the loot distribution has changed and the way the quests are built and run, I feel is an awful hard sell at best. The road is waaay too long to get your guy EFFECTIVE at what he/she is supposed to be doing.... always waiting for that rare drop... hard enough to pull really good items in the game, you will be waiting for YEAARS to pull all this AC stuff (and Borro is STILL waiting .

I don't know. Depends on the player. Some will wait a long time for the gear, some will have it already sitting in their newly rolled intimitank's bank, waiting for him to get to the appropriate lvl.

If your problem is simply the posting of good gear, well, that's a personal taste.

I prefer builds posted with the best gear, to see what that character's potential is. People can then adjust accordingly. In my opinion, it's better than posting a build with +4 items all around, w/o any great stuff b/c people look to builds for advice. If you don't show the max potential, someone looking for advice won't know if the build is what he's looking for, at cap, w/ items he's probably after anyway (even if it'll take him a long time to acquire).

I think it's better when people post max potential, instead of just average potential, leaving it up to every individual to try and figure out what they should be after if they're looking to a build for advice in the first place.

Seems to me that you weren't just criticizing the posting of the gear, but the very idea of the viability of a character like this, even w/ the gear posted.

[Borror0]

Actually all you did was make alot of noise. Aandre is a very active and very effective fighter on Ghallanda. Sorry, my opinion stands.

This doesn't prove your character is any better. I know people that are much better player with their weird toon than some are *** their "perfectly built" toons. I've given to you that you can be a very good player no mattter your build. A build is only a small percentage of your effectiveness (unless you are an 8 Int Wizard... but that's another topic). I've said that we are never discussing a player's skill on the forum. We assume equal level of skill as what we are trying to determinate is what would make the build better. We always assume that the player has equal level of skill, as we assume someone will only play build has has the skill to play.

As for insulting the people I party with once again, it wont work... you arent the only one who knows how to play the game, and you can put THAT in your wiki.

Put what on my wiki?

I've said, if they can't prove an intimitank is good, then they got a problem. Either the build is awful, either the player doesn't play well, either they got too low AC and saves... or a combanasion of the three.

But selling this build in DDO right now the way the loot distribution has changed and the way the quests are built and run, I feel is an awful hard sell at best. The road is waaay too long to get your guy EFFECTIVE at what he/she is supposed to be doing.... always waiting for that rare drop... hard enough to pull really good items in the game, you will be waiting for YEAARS to pull all this AC stuff (and Borro is STILL waiting .

I've said it to you, you can be effective without raid loot, so your argument holds no water!

Of course I'm still waiting to get my perfect gear, but so 99% of the DDO players. And like I said, don't have much time to play lately.

Good gear isn't as hard to come by as you make it sound, this gear is gear-dependant, but it doesn't fall into pieces if you don't have all the list.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Good gear isn't as hard to come by as you make it sound, this gear is gear-dependent, but it doesn't fall into pieces if you don't have all the list.

This is my whole point. Most of the AC gear you post is extremely rare. Dont fool anyone that it isnt. As an upstart build, starting with regular loot that 90% of the game possesses, they will stand no chance to EVER see this loot in the quantity thats necessary to realize the numbers you post. While they wait, they are getting hammered, unable to block those shots, less able to kill than the rest of the melees, and not enough hit points to survive the shots in the first place until level8 at least... you are a pin cushion. Anf if you are lucky enough to get to level 14, you better be ready with your items (which you wont be) or else you are really gonna get rocked.... Not my idea of fun

[Mhykke]

This is my whole point. Most of the AC gear you post is extremely rare. Dont fool anyone that it isnt. As an upstart build, starting with regular loot that 90% of the game possesses, they will stand no chance to EVER see this loot in the quantity thats necessary to realize the numbers you post. While they wait, they are getting hammered, unable to block those shots, less able to kill than the rest of the melees, and not enough hit points to survive the shots in the first place until level8 at least... you are a pin cushion. Anf if you are lucky enough to get to level 14, you better be ready with your items (which you wont be) or else you are really gonna get rocked.... Not my idea of fun

I think you're using some hyperbole in regards to the gear posted.
Here's the gear in the OP:

Trinket: Head of Good Fortune
Necklace: +5 Protection
Belt: Daggertooth Belt
Armor: +5 Mithril Fullplate
Shield: +5 MithrilTower Shield
Ring: Chattering Ring
Ring: Circle of Hatred
Bracers: Chaosguard
Cloak: +6 Charisma
Googles: Sandstorm Googles (Currently Blindness of Minute Seeing)
Gloves: +6 Strength
Boots: Madstone Boots

Head? Pff, there's plenty of reaver runs nightly. Not hard to get.
Protection +5 neck.? On AH all the time, some for very cheap.
Daggertooth Belt: rare, but not out of the realm of possibility.
Armor: So go w/ +4 mith. fp, which is very attainable.
Mith. tower, same as above, although much easier to get.
Chattering ring may be tougher, unless you can find a static group to run w/.
Circle of hatred? Doesn't matter for ac.....grab yourself a +11 intim. ring, but there are a few +13's on the AH here and there, for fairly cheap.
The rest, either not hard to get or don't add to ac. It's not as though he posted 5 deathnips and all the shields from the shield fragment list...

Most of that raid gear is fairly easy to obtain (reaver and queen loot). The +5 items have drastically gone down in price, and if one saves, can get those things fairly quickly.

If you replace some of the stuff on the list w/ slightly lower quality, AC drops 3 or 4 ish....definitely doesn't turn the build from a tank to a "pincushion", and is still a fine build.

I also don't get the "upstart" build stuff. I don't think the OP mentions this build is a good one for people new to the game. In fact, he stated it was his first 32 point character.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I also don't get the "upstart" build stuff. I don't think the OP mentions this build is a good one for people new to the game. In fact, he stated it was his first 32 point character.

You make this gear sound so easy to attain, but it isnt. On all the same player? No.. Did you ever catch the AH price for a +5 mithral fp? Only plat farmers "buy" in that range.... most players need to PULL an item like that... very very few can afford. Most players that have been playing since BETA (almost 2 years ago) cant say they have all these items.. You are misleading gamers here.

If you already have the loot knock yerself out... but if you dont, you'll be wishing you DID..... This build is not for the new OR average player... no matter how many times you say it is.

[Mhykke]

You make this gear sound so easy to attain, but it isnt. On all the same player? No.. Did you ever catch the AH price for a +5 mithral fp? Only plat farmers "buy" in that range.... most players need to PULL an item like that... very very few can afford. You are misleading gamers here.

If you already have the loot knock yerself out... but if you dont, you'll be wishing you DID.....

But I already addressed this. You don't need to get the +5 mfp. You can get the +4, which is very attainable (heck, I've seen it at house K vendor on multiple occasions.) Replacing things like +5 mfp w/ +4 mfp don't break the build. You are the one misleading people here, trying to say the build needs all of this stuff to be effective. No. It's just this stuff is the optimal gear for the OP. People can adjust according to what they expect to get.

[Strykersz]

Alternatively, one can get +5fp and dwarven armor mastery 2 and have identical ac to that of this build.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

You can get the +4, which is very attainable (heck, I've seen it at house K vendor on multiple occasions.) Replacing things like +5 mfp w/ +4 mfp don't break the build. People can adjust according to what they expect to get.

You argue over and over again about non sequitors. Most people would not be able to get this build into 50's... you'll still get hit hard. Most players dont have the Daggertooth Belt, Chaosguard, Chattering Ring, the +5 Mith FP, etc etc... by the time you redo the math, hes still in the 40's. Theres far too little room for "adjusting." Ive seen the +4 mithral FP in the vendor 1 time in almost TWO YEARS. And that was luck. And Im in there many times a day. 98% of DDOdom will tell you they never saw +4 mith fp in the house k vendor... You are living in a dream world. You have limited vision of the vast citizenry of DDOdom. Most dont have this uber gear.

This build is only for people that already have most of the loot already. PERIOD.

[Obitus]

You argue over and over again about non sequitors. Most people would not be able to get this build into 50's... you'll still get hit hard. Most players dont have the Daggertooth Belt, Chaosguard, Chattering Ring, the +5 Mith FP, etc etc... by the time you redo the math, hes still in the 40's. Theres far too little room for "adjusting." Ive seen the +4 mithral FP in the vendor 1 time in almost TWO YEARS. And that was luck. And Im in there many times a day. 98% of DDOdom will tell you they never saw +4 mith fp in the house k vendor... You are living in a dream world. You have limited vision of the vast citizenry of DDOdom. Most dont have this uber gear.

This build is only for people that already have most of the loot already. PERIOD.

It seems like you've spent the last couple of pages hammering home a point that Borror already acknowledged at the beginning -- that Intimitanks are very gear-dependent.

And that's irrefutably true. While all builds count to some degree on gear, Intimitanks are perhaps unique in the sense that, if they dip below a certain threshold of equipment quality, they simply cannot perform their intended role.

On the other hand, the counter-example that Borror offered, a Barbarian, is also perhaps unique with respect to its lack of gear dependency. Every other build falls somewhere in the middle. Seeing casters without high stat and Potency/Devotion items try to function in the later levels is kind of hilarious, for instance. Rogue builds without big +skill items are pretty weak, too.

DDO as an entire game revolves around gear, to the point where the underlying build is almost always secondary.

Discussing builds, however, is interesting for those who want to get the maximum performance out of their characters, and to that end, it's useful to know what's achievable with the best, or near the best gear. That doesn't mean, of course, that prospective players of a posted build should necessarily expect to find all the best of everything anytime soon; it just means that a build without a target, without end-game context, is very hard to read and evaluate properly.

As for Borror's AC breakdown:

10 Base
+13 Armor
+9 Shield
+5 Protection
+6 Dodge
+1 Aura
+5 Dex
+5 Combat Expertise
--------------------
54 Unbuffed

You're looking at 3 fewer points of AC if you remove the Chattering Ring, which is probably the hardest AC-related item in his list. Then again, you can add 3 points of AC for Barkskin pots, which are both cheap and in infinite supply. You can also add a further +1 if you pick up an "of parrying" weapon.

If you want to take this elite-loot argument to the point of absurdity, then sure, remove 2 points to account for +4 armor and shield. But as a previous poster noted, you can get the same effect with vanilla +5 Full Plate if you take Dwarven Armor Mastery II. Take away another 2 points to sub in Spectacular Optics for the +5 protection item.

Surely you're not going to argue that the +4 DEX item in Borror's equipment list is too rare, so we'll leave DEX where it is. Chaosgarde? Fine, fine. The bracers are a semi-static chest item from a freaking level 9 quest, but we'll humor you.

So where does that leave us?

54 old total
-3 Chattering Ring
+3 Barkskin Potion
+1 "of parrying" weapon
-1 Shield
+0 Armor
-2 Spectacular Optics
-2 Chaosgarde
-----------------------
50 AC without outside buffs
52 AC blocking
54 AC versus ogres, trolls, giants
56 AC blocking versus ogres, trolls, giants

Those last two numbers are very important, because most of the heavy-hitting, high-attack-bonus mobs in this game fall into the giant category. With group buffs, the Borror build with this new item loadout can potentially hit 62 AC (64 block) against these foes, and 58 (60) against others. Toss Chaosgarde into the mix (which is really kind of absurd to disinclude), and you're back up to 60 (62) AC, and 64 (66) against giant-type critters.

Oh noes. He sure is screwed.

Finally, it's worth noting that if the so-called casual player (I'm sure I'm one by the standards of this forum) is as helpless and gear-starved as you imply, then that self-same casual player will rarely if ever be fighting any of the mobs that would severely test the above AC scores. See, if you fight really difficult stuff in this game, you tend to loot very nice chests. It's funny how that works out.

The days of mostly-normal questing are over, by the way; shocking as it may sound, your average pick-up group these days (in my experience) is doing as many elite quests as they can. Considering that poor little old me managed to outfit an Intimitank basically on the sole basis of Co6 and Giant cave runs waaaay back when, it should be comparatively very easy, if perhaps time-consuming, to do it now that we have better chests and the Auction House.

[Cashiry]

The days of mostly-normal questing are over, by the way; shocking as it may sound, your average pick-up group these days (in my experience) is doing as many elite quests as they can. Considering that poor little old me managed to outfit an Intimitank basically on the sole basis of Co6 and Giant cave runs waaaay back when, it should be comparatively very easy, if perhaps time-consuming, to do it now that we have better chests and the Auction House.

Concur with this statement.... thats where I pulled my stuff also, minus the Chaosguarde/chat ring and +5 protection necklace, still pulled the a +4 pro necklace from Co6 back in the day so no bid diffrence there..

[Tanka]

Intimitanks have always been very, very heavily gear dependent. Moreso than any other class. They need all the high level, rare loot that boosts AC, Intimidate, saves and HP, with a few that boost stats (Cha, Str, Dex and Con, in that order generally speaking).

They are the hardest to play right, as they require precise timing and intricate knowledge of the game's mechanics.

To say "no new player could ever attain this" is partially right, if only due to the fact that without the proper gear and knowledge, such an Intimitank is gonna get clobbered no matter the cause.

However, if a new player were to dedicate their time to acquiring the gear, acquiring the knowledge and the skill, then they can make and use this build effectively.

Do you think Riot started with all this gear in his bank? Nope. He had to earn it through hard work, lots of looting, trading and raiding.

[Taerdra]

Trinket: Head of Good Fortune
Necklace: +5 Protection
Belt: Daggertooth Belt
Armor: +5 Mithril Fullplate
Shield: +5 MithrilTower Shield
Ring: Chattering Ring
Ring: Circle of Hatred
Bracers: Chaosguard
Cloak: +6 Charisma
Googles: Sandstorm Googles (Currently Blindness of Minute Seeing)
Gloves: +6 Strength
Boots: Madstone Boots

Do you switch something out for Heavy Fort or is it attached to one of the items you are referring to? I think that is the hardest part about playing an intimi-tank: not finding the gear, but fitting it all in for maximum efficiency.

[Cashiry]

Do you switch something out for Heavy Fort or is it attached to one of the items you are referring to? I think that is the hardest part about playing an intimi-tank: not finding the gear, but fitting it all in for maximum efficiency.

Mod Fort works for this build/Head of Good Fortune....

[Borror0]

Do you switch something out for Heavy Fort or is it attached to one of the items you are referring to? I think that is the hardest part about playing an intimi-tank: not finding the gear, but fitting it all in for maximum efficiency.

Mobs hit you 1 time out of 20. To crit they have to hit you twice, with Moderate Fort, it's 3 times our of 1600 hits. Pretty close to 0, not worth a spot for Heavy Fort. Much better stuff to get from other item, at least for now.

[Riot]

B-Man... Spoken like an AC master... You make a Intimitank proud... =)

[Taerdra]

Mobs hit you 1 time out of 20. To crit they have to hit you twice, with Moderate Fort, it's 3 times our of 1600 hits. Pretty close to 0, not worth a spot for Heavy Fort. Much better stuff to get from other item, at least for now.

Thanks. Just what I was interested in.