Borror Z'rro - Dwarven Defender

[Borror0]

Well, the thing Shade is missing is that kill counts do not tell the whole story. You could lead in kills consistently with a pure rogue if you waited till every monster was down to 1/4 life and hit him from behind with a sneak attack and nobody would see the work that everyone else did to take the things life down 3/4.

Yeah, or Shade could steal loads of kills with his Glancing Blows... or the caster could weaken all the mobs with Fireball and the tanks would deal the last blow.

I agree killcounts are not the best example, at all.

We had a rogue named Viki in Guardians who was infamous for kill counts. Big deal. If you wade in , intimidate and draw all the aggro and people wail away from the flank with all those bonuses and then right as you lose aggro your timer resets and you grab them right back, you are like 3 members of the party in one.

This might interest you then.

The cleric in our 4 man TR run musta been a little bored most of the time. I realize Tr is not a great test of the build but its where I was today. I'll let you know as progress rolls along how a complete newcomer to this style of play is doing.

Sounds good. I'll be please to learn abouot your experience.

I've already had a cleric complaining that we took not enough damage. Some party members took their armor off and fought naked... the cleric barely saw a difference...

But yeah, there are some quests that are much easier on you. Anything caster-low is a breeze. When there are casters, it gets a bit harder if you move resist-less. So ask for them, you need them when you got the aggro of 5+ casters at the same time. They won't, however, succeed to land any Will-based, Fort-based spells. But sadly, most Reflex saves are save for half, so you still take damage.

Meanwhile, the concept of team oriented play-style and its real effect doesn't have to be appreciated by those who just want to hack and slash to make it valid or enjoyable. It doesn't sound sexy when you first hear it maybe but it's reall a lot tougher than flat out just beating things down. It requires some planning and practice. I think the timing on the intimidate is the hardest thing to get down so far.

The timing on intimidate becomes like a second nature before you reach level 14, unless you powerleveled like crazy. I took my time on Borror and did a few quests for favor, so I might have had a few hours of questing more, but I doubt you'll not get used to it by level 14.

I've came back from a month break of no gaming (hurray for RL!!) and was surprised that I still knew how to play the build, so forgetting it is not an issue. It's like riding a bicycle, you never really forget.

[A_Sheep]

What do you think about dropping axe attack II for Axe Damage I (and have a few AP leftover)?

It seems your to-hit will be in the mid 30's with CE on.

[Borror0]

What do you think about dropping axe attack II for Axe Damage I (and have a few AP leftover)?

That could be a possibility.

It seems your to-hit will be in the mid 30's with CE on.

Really? I'm getting low 30's.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I like everything you've done with this build, personally, including the changes you made. However, I would seriously consider dropping the axe attack II for Axe Damage. You DEFINATELY was Power attack. No doubt you will hit almost every time at level 14 so you want the damage. On my dwarven Maldini variant, when I use power attack the damage output is just sick. Its major damage when wielding a two hander, when you just need to go on the offensive. However if you are playing turtle or want that ac, turn that power attack off so you can make your hits count, especially if you are using stat damage/paralyzer/vorpal or anytime TO HIT means more than total damage.

[Borror0]

However, I would seriously consider dropping the axe attack II for Axe Damage.

When you do the math is becomes much more obvious!

5% of 30 = 1,5 damage
So, it's more than +1 damage... but it's cheaper. So it really comes to cost vs reward.

But +1 to-hit is, sometimes, more than more damage.

You DEFINATELY was Power attack.

No, I don't.

I cannot have both up Combat Expterise and Power Attack at the same time, and even if I could, my accuracy would drop soo low it'd not even be funny.

I'd get miss over miss, hehe. Not really interesting, wouldn't it?

I simply cannot even think of a quest where I'd drop CE all the time. Of course it'd be nice against doomsphere or the Abbot as they got no melee attack and you're going for straight DPS pretty much, but that is way to situational for now. I don't say later, when I get a feat and don't really know what to do of it, but I'm not there yet. AC being the main focus of this build, it is what I must but in priority. When you have 100% of the aggro on you, you can drop quick if you're AC is too low, or if your saves are worth a Masterwork Club.

DPS is always nice, I try to get it as high as possible, but it is not my main focus, it comes after keeping myself and others alive.

No doubt you will hit almost every time at level 14 so you want the damage. On my dwarven Maldini variant, when I use power attack the damage output is just sick. Its major damage when wielding a two hander, when you just need to go on the offensive.

Power Attack is a no brainer of any two-hander, simply too powerful to say no.

On a one-handed weapon, it's less powerful, still is a worth a feat, but not an as high priority as for a two-handed weapon. Of course, when I need DPS, it's because it is not time for AC at all. So I turn CE off and weild a Cloudburst so I would take full benefit of Power Attack at those moments... but those moments are too few to be worth it... yet.

I know you knew that I wouldn't have it on when turtling up... but I'm turteling up almost all the time.

And I'd keep Axe Attack II as long as I can, but if I ever end up short 2 APs, I'd swap it out for Axe Damage I.

[maddmatt70]

Somebody kept this post alive.. First, of all nice raid loot - with the new raid loot rules do you really think a new tank could remotely get this level of raid loot. Try posting your guy naked without gear...

I would second Shade's basic observation and furthermore say that this build is so mod2.. By the time your halfway through a quest Shade is already onto the next one and looting those quest's chests. The fundamental reason why this type of build is unecessary is because of the healing in this game. Healing is so overpowered if you really think about it. Clerics can use metamagics, scrolls, wands, manapots in a never ending supply of high powered mana and arcanes can supply the displacement. I personaly have been rooting for a firewall nerf to go along with the cloudkill nerf, but I can not deny that there should probably be a healing nerf as well. Yes, I am aware of the philosophy of kill them so fast that you take no damage, but if you got the cleric safety net behind you coupled with arcanes 50% displacement who cares about ac, intimidate or any of that drivel....

[Borror0]

First, of all nice raid loot - with the new raid loot rules do you really think a new tank could remotely get this level of raid loot. Try posting your guy naked without gear...

I'm not even denying this.

I've said it many times before, this build, or any intimitank, is really gear-dependant. Your tank needs his +5 Mith FP, +5 Mith TS, Chaosguardes and Chattering Ring. His effectiveness comes from AC, AC comes from gear. This build isn't for a new player, I'll never recommend this to a new player, or to anyone who plays very few. You need the loot to back it up, or you'll be a burden. Of course, a barbarian can contribute with a Greataxe, a +4 Str item, +4 Con item and Heavy fortification, but this isn't a barbarian. Fighters are more gear-dependant, it's a fact. Understand it and move on.

If we'd all play barbarians, the game would be pretty linear, wouldn't it? Other class can contribute in different ways, this build can increase others' DPS in so many ways. No CC, more nuking. Less healing, more nuking/insta-killing.

Of course this nears gear to be effective, but this does not make of it any lesser.

I would second Shade's basic observation and furthermore say that this build is so mod2.. By the time your halfway through a quest Shade is already onto the next one and looting those quest's chests.

Sorry, no, just no.

With a barbarian you use mostly CC, with a Intimitank, you use nuking. It goes at about the same speed, if not faster.

The fundamental reason why this type of build is unecessary is because of the healing in this game. Healing is so overpowered if you really think about..

While this build isn't necessary... no melee class is necessary. And this build makes cleric less needed.

I've done countless pre-raid runs with only a bard as healer... because I was sucking up the damage. Try to do that with a few barbrians, it'll be much harder... if not impossible (I do not dare impossible as I have yet to cap a barbarian). I'll not emphasis this enough, you need none to little CC with a Intimitank in your group, barbarians need more... or lots of Heal scrolls. The Intimitank will let the sorc to go trigger-happy and have fun.

Your a bass player, not the lead guitar. You won't lead the kill count, people won't thank you for taking less damage... fact is, you'll be probably the one taking most damage (if you don't, you don't play well or others are zerging ahead). You won't see big red numbers flying left and right, but you'll contribute, you make other better. Is a wizard that buff and CC any lesser than a nuking sorc? That's what you're comparing in the end.

CC and buffs vs DPS

Intimidate IS crowd-control. You reduce the total damage the group is taking, saying this build isn't good at all is like saying that CC is no more.

[maddmatt70]

I am sorry Borro Zrro, but the high end dps whether it is barbarian or other high end dps build does get through the quest quicker. I don't know what type of tanks/players/casters you run with, but high dps trumps in terms of speed a lower dps anyday. Axer is right if you have quick killing tanks and especially with a lovely bard the party does not take as much damage because the monsters are dead.. The defensive tank is not a bass guitar, but a crutch in a truely dps party because why not have 6 party members which slice the enemies to bits before they can respond in kind. Its blitzkrieg baby - that is the strategy. In mod 2 ac mattered and the intimitank had a place, but now even with mod5s crit protected monsters ac is still a lesser quality. Only hope is mod6 bro or you can just keep living in the world you live in.

I have been the sole healer on my bard with shade before, but in general I have run many quests with many barbarians or other dps tanks as sole healer (25+ scale runs, etc.) so I don't know if you want some sort of award for this? Healing is overpowered and is a very underrated aspect of this game. If you got a cleric try running around with quicken spell and empower healing with 100 heal scrolls and rez scrolls and tell me if you couldn't heal to full somebody in the blink of an eye with a cure crit or heal spell or even a cure mod on the squishes .. Scrolls are cheap now in relative terms to absolute money and if anything hardcore clerics have gravitated to the next thing mana pots which are actually somewhat reasonably to purchase now.. lol....

[Borror0]

In mod 2 ac mattered and the intimitank had a place, but now even with mod5s crit protected monsters ac is still a lesser quality.

AC has no place anymore but had place in mod 2?

Sorry, I cannot get myself to see why. If they hit on a 20 before and they do now, what's the difference?

Of course, barbarians weren't as interesting back then as they are now, Sword & Board DPS was nerfed by the metagame, but I cannot see why the Tank is no more.

Of course healing is overly available, so what? Axer needs a dedicated healer, I don't. That was my point.

I have been the sole healer on my bard with shade before, but in general I have run many quests with many barbarians or other dps tanks as sole healer (25+ scale runs, etc.) so I don't know if you want some sort of award for this?

I need no award, but what I meant is that if my character is good enough to allow a group to only require a full healer, then he isn't a gimp.

Axer can do the same? Great, his character is not a gimp either.

[Mhykke]

I have both types of characters, DPS barb, and sword and board tank....

You're both right, and you're both mischaracterizing the other side a tiny bit.

Quests go by pretty fast with either. W/ the barb, stuff gets cut up fast. A dedicated healer on the barb isn't needed, since others are taking little damage due to the aggro the barb is getting, and the quickness in which mobs are killed.

With the tank, the cleric can be freer to blow through some mana offensive casting. I do think you guys are mischaracterizing the tank a little bit. It's not as though the tank goes into every single fight, intimidates, and shield bashes. The tank goes in, throws the intimidate, and then swings away. Shield bashing isn't a big part of it at all.

The 2 types of characters work great together, also. The intimitank throws intimidate, the barb kills without taking hardly any damage.

They're both great types of characters to have separately, and together.

[Borror0]

Shield bashing isn't a big part of it at all.

I hope not, I've taken ISB out...

The 2 types of characters work great together, also. The intimitank throws intimidate, the barb kills without taking hardly any damage.

They're both great types of characters to have separately, and together.

Thanks Mhykke, that was my point.

Barbs are great, but that doesn't mean that the rest sucks.

[Riot]

Besides, I'll take my Tank, (Riott) and 5 rogues against your 6 barbarians anyday in a Mob DPS contest.
We'll come through with higher DPS, AND LESS Damage.

[Hvymetal]

Besides, I'll take my Tank, (Riott) and 5 rogues against your 6 barbarians anyday in a Mob DPS contest.
We'll come through with higher DPS, AND LESS Damage.

QmotherFnT

Or,

QFT

[maddmatt70]

Besides, I'll take my Tank, (Riott) and 5 rogues against your 6 barbarians anyday in a Mob DPS contest.
We'll come through with higher DPS, AND LESS Damage.

Yeah, I have run with you riott once or twice. I was on my cleric - I was not that agressive because I wanted to appraise your style which is effective enough, but still would not lead to out dpsing a pack of rabid dpsers. A: You assume that you and 5 rogues can perform coordinated attacks against multiple enemies and B: more fundamentally that a rogue could out dps a high dps machine when they get sneak damage all the time. High dps machine can also be for instance your two weapon fighting rangers or fighters, some battle bards, etc. You have obviously run with Maldini a few times as he is/was in your guild. Can you honestly say that you and 5 rogues could out dps 6 maldinis much less 6 axers... By the time you and the rogues get in your respective positions the mobs are already dead by the 6 axer group..

I actually think they will make superior two weapon fighting and superior two handed fighting require bab 16 this would lead to straight barbs either to take a level of fighter or do less dps possibly then some other classes. These things vary from mod to mod right now and especially in the gianthold the barbarian reigned, but in the next mod that might not be the case...

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Besides, I'll take my Tank, (Riott) and 5 rogues against your 6 barbarians anyday in a Mob DPS contest.
We'll come through with higher DPS, AND LESS Damage.

Im a bit surprised at your comment here Riot. I have a Dwarven fighter variant of Maldini's barbarian build. I am a weapon master. I lead in kills in most parties Im in, even against some of the best Ghallanda has to offer. BUT GUESS WHAT? Nobody else cares And I'm smart enough to know this. I party lead 95% of the time, and of course I'd like to finish a quest fast, but never at the expense of my other party members. I play for MY PARTY AS WELL as for myself. As party lead I want to deal with EACH players pros and cons to solve a quest, each night I play, enhancing not only the entire party's fun factor, but mine as well. If it takes 10 minutes longer but we die less and EVERYBODY GETS TO EXCEL, I'd rather it be that way. If I was in a quest we needed to create choke points, I'm sorry but I'd rather have Borror on my team blocking that doorway. His ability to take hits are huge in that type of quest, and let the cleric and casters focus on other enemies from a safer distance. Now when we need to just charge ahead, I'd probably want you up ahead busting faces

Point is this game is too situational to say you are a "better build" because your team of you and five rogues can beat a team of six ac based barbs, it just doesn't matter. This isnt DC vs Marvel! I think Borror is a daym good build, as well as yours. Both builds are superior to most we encounter in DDOdom anyway, and I recommend both builds highly.

Now, Wonder Twin powers, activate!

[maddmatt70]

Im a bit surprised at your comment here Riot. I have a Dwarven fighter variant of Maldini's barbarian build. I am a weapon master. I lead in kills in most parties Im in, even against some of the best Ghallanda has to offer. BUT GUESS WHAT? Nobody else cares And I'm smart enough to know this. I party lead 95% of the time, and of course I'd like to finish a quest fast, but never at the expense of my other party members. I play for MY PARTY AS WELL as for myself. As party lead I want to deal with EACH players pros and cons to solve a quest, each night I play, enhancing not only the entire party's fun factor, but mine as well. If it takes 10 minutes longer but we die less and EVERYBODY GETS TO EXCEL, I'd rather it be that way. If I was in a quest we needed to create choke points, I'm sorry but I'd rather have Borror on my team blocking that doorway. His ability to take hits are huge in that type of quest, and let the cleric and casters focus on other enemies from a safer distance. Now when we need to just charge ahead, I'd probably want you up ahead busting faces

Point is this game is too situational to say you are a "better build" because your team of you and five rogues can beat a team of six ac based barbs, it just doesn't matter. This isnt DC vs Marvel! I think Borror is a daym good build, as well as yours. Both builds are superior to most we encounter in DDOdom anyway, and I recommend both builds highly.

Now, Wonder Twin powers, activate!

Yeah I hear you man.. It is about the fun in the end, but the game is slanted toward groups that can get quests done faster that is just the way it goes. Am I going to take the ultimate speed party into each dungeon - basically mass charm everything, haste so the party is faster then the charmed monsters and drop mass aoe kills at the end for whatever is left - no that is not fun. Do these guys have effective builds. Yes. Are they dependent on other party members to get things done quickly yes? As Riott points out 5 rogues and him - I did not see him say 5 other tanks and him..

[Riot]

Im a bit surprised at your comment here Riot.

My post wasn't about Riott Vs. the B-man. geesh.
Get a grip. B-man plus 5 Rogues > 6 Barbarians.

but still would not lead to out dpsing a pack of rabid dpsers.

Only IF, the quest you run is so low that mobs will die in 2-3 hits. And incoming damage is so insignificant.

A: You assume that you and 5 rogues can perform coordinated attacks against multiple enemies

Not an assumption.
One intimidate allows Every single rogue to sneak attack any mob who has the "intimidated" icon over their head.
Dual wielding Rogues with and extra +7d6 per hit, not to mention standard weapon damage, out damage even the best DPS Barbs.

And you have to know, being experienced, that intimidating is Not that hard when done well.

I've been in these groups before. If you haven't seen it. Then basically you just haven't seen it. But the numbers are staggering.

It's like watching the 6 sorcerer groups go to town til they run out of Mana.

B: more fundamentally that a rogue could out dps a high dps machine when they get sneak damage all the time. High dps machine can also be for instance your two weapon fighting rangers or fighters, some battle bards, etc.

Sure, I love DPS barbs. And rangers and bards ect..... But the fact is, the dual wielding rogue build is leaps and bounds above them all. +7D6 per hit is nothing to laugh off. And it's Only getting higher every two levels.

You have obviously run with Maldini a few times as he is/was in your guild. Can you honestly say that you and 5 rogues could out dps 6 maldinis much less 6 axers... By the time you and the rogues get in your respective positions the mobs are already dead by the 6 axer group..

Yes... and so can he. I've had Maldini and Tegra (DPS rogue) in the same raid, and watched Tegra out kill maldini and then some. Why? Because he played "follow the Intimitank" and I did my best to set him up.

It's not about "getting into position". It's about following the leader.
Follow the Tank, attack stuff behind him.

I think at level 10 we ran Temepest Spine in 18 minutes on Elite, (At level 10 mind you) using this method with rogues for DPS. Killing everything in our path. This is actually a very old discussion.

The reason Rogues are the Kings of DPS, is Only because of the Intimitank.
It's the only class who can snatch agro, keep mobs in place, and not end up a pile of goo.

[Riot]

As Riott points out 5 rogues and him - I did not see him say 5 other tanks and him.

Hey, I'm pretty Keen on the 5 AoE'ers Plus and Intimitank too.... There's two ways to run this coin.
But the point being put forth was to challenge a group of 6 melee DPSers (Barbs)..... So Ii figured melee would be the way to do it.

Ahhh, Sebilis AoE pulls... those were the days!!!

Can ya tell I played a Monk?

[Twerpp]

Youre right about that Riot, I use intimidate a lot mostly out of laziness I hate chasing mobs who bee-line for casters and clerics when I can just hotkey a button and voila, "come get some mofos". Anyway pure rogues will absolutely love you when they are getting 100% sneaks and zero aggro. Casters will love it when you wrap 20 mobs up into a nice little package for a nuke or mass CC. Clerics will love it when he has a ton of mana to play with since mobs are only interesting in hurting the person with 50 plus AC plenty of HP and killer saves.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Hey, I'm pretty Keen on the 5 AoE'ers Plus and Intimitank too.... There's two ways to run this coin.
But the point being put forth was to challenge a group of 6 melee DPSers (Barbs)..... So Ii figured melee would be the way to do it.

Ahhh, Sebilis AoE pulls... those were the days!!!

Can ya tell I played a Monk?

You are talking about power-gaming, your world may only include speed running, and thats fine. Im guilty of that at times as well. But thats not 90% of DDOdom, so its YOU who needs to take that grip. Most of us want a fun party filled with old freinds, new freinds, and good times.... That in essence is what Dungeons and Dragons was and still is built around. Talent will get us through the quests, and I live to ADVENTURE... however, once new content doesnt feel new anymore, then its time to speed it up and dont dilly-dally. However, it would get boring for me if ALL I DID was speed runs.

I dont think we truly disagree here, since you are a great player Riot, but dont tell me to get a grip because your way is not the better way, its JUST YOUR WAY.