Borror Z'rro - Dwarven Defender

[rimble]

Just going to make a build observation. Would you consider picking up two levels of rogue (your ac would be 3 less or so depending if you got the delving suit) when the cap goes to 18 and/or would you advice new players to only build an intimidate tank with evasion? When I run/lead the shroud and there is an intimidator in the group and this kind of was the same with the abbot the tanks tended to take alot of their damage from spells (DFB) which evasion would prevent/mitigate alot. This kind of makes sense in pnp terms as high levels monsters often either casts spells or do aoe attacks which are preventable with evasion. If I were making an intimidate/defensive tank in today's game he would have to have evasion.

I agree, Evasion is a requirement for any Intimitank build I consider. So are good saves, which makes 2 Rogue/2 Paladin pretty much a requirement. After that you can salt to taste. I think Monks might make some serious inroads into Intimitank territory...innate Evasion, awesome saves...we'll have to see how all these various Monk stances and whatnot operate and what they offer.

[Borror0]

Would you consider picking up two levels of rogue (your ac would be 3 less or so depending if you got the delving suit) when the cap goes to 18 and/or would you advice new players to only build an intimidate tank with evasion?

I see where you're coming from, and I don't totally disagree with you.

When Module 6 came out, I went fighter 13. Then, I looked at how quests were demanding on AC, saves and HP. Just so it's clear, I didn't have stepped in the Shroud yet at that point. My conclusion was that AC was pretty much alright the way it was, so were my HP and saves. Now, looking back I realise that I was wronger for the Shroud, but that's not important for now. So, I went with fighter 14 over paladin 3, hoping they'd add more feat sooner or later. Besides, I'm still scared to miss out on nice level 16+ enhancements. I know that I'm being optimistic there. Simply put, the gap between paladin 3 and fighter 14 was too small to risk loosing out on something bigger in the future.

As for Evasion, I was more than alright in Module 4 and 5 on that side. Good reflex saves and Fire Resist was more than enough.

However, like I've pointed out, I hadn't stepped in the Shroud yet. And to be honest, the Shroud changes everything. The Shroud requires you to have more HP and more AC than anything you've met previously. And, as you've pointed out, those DFB hurt and make Evasion much more appealing. This is the continuation from the Abbott.

However, the tricky part is that none of five other quests from Module 6 requires investments into Evasion that much. At least, not enough to remove 3 of your potential AC. Then again, you can always build yourself for a MFP and switch to MBP when needed not costing you any AC, except when Evasion is prefered. Taking two rogue level will cost you a mere 8 HP, gain you UMD as a class skill and give you 1d6 of sneak attack so you know when you lost aggro. Your thirteenth and fourteenth fighter level doesn't give you much, 8 HP over taking the two rogue levels and an extra feat.

However, it's also all about the future reserves us.

Eladrin confirmed, in this post, that he is well awared of the issues defensive tanks face in end game. He has even confirmed me that some of the quests in Module 7 would be built having defensive AC tanks in mind. In fact, the changes to Divine Righteousness and Intimidate, plus the addition of those Eldritch rituals to add one alchemical AC to your sheild and armor goes in that direction.

So, how the game will be in Module 7 is hard to evaluate. We've only seen five level 16 quests, plus the Shroud which had the most horrible monster selection I have ever seen. The Shroud is totally different from the five others in its monster selection and the to-hit mobs have. Eladrin told me to not worried and that the Shroud does not really represent a trend of rendering AC so useless. So, with a so small sample of the current levels, and the most ran quest right now not being reprentative, the choice gets harder.

So, to answer your question, right now, for Module 6, the module where we run the Shroud most of the time, it's best having two levels of rogue over taking fighter levels. However, with Module 7 so close, and with nothing really indicating a trend like Module 4's devaluation of AC (which could be observed in every single of the eleven quests of the module), taking a stance for the future would be rather silly.

I'm left to say that neither going 12/2/2 or 14/2 has that much of an advantage over the other, it all rests on what Moduel 7 will be like.

[maddmatt70]

I agree, Evasion is a requirement for any Intimitank build I consider. So are good saves, which makes 2 Rogue/2 Paladin pretty much a requirement. After that you can salt to taste. I think Monks might make some serious inroads into Intimitank territory...innate Evasion, awesome saves...we'll have to see how all these various Monk stances and whatnot operate and what they offer.

9 levels of ranger also has some potential.. You get ranger favored enemy defense 2 and evasion at level 9 ranger (for your favored enemy choose the two raid bosses in the next mod for instance). You could have a dwarven 9 ranger/8 fighter/3 pally at end game and at the current cap probably a 9 ranger 4 fighter 3 pally.

[Borror0]

Woot! Got Tumbleweed!! That new FP wil be sweet.

And, AC matters more in the raids. Mostly versus those red named Orthons and the Renders. I'll update the thread for module 7 soon.

[maddmatt70]

Woot! Got Tumbleweed!! That new FP wil be sweet.

And, AC matters more in the raids. Mostly versus those red named Orthons and the Renders. I'll update the thread for module 7 soon.

On normal.. Which is the key point on normal ac mattered in the shroud.. We will see if ac matters any on elite..

[sirgog]

Woot! Got Tumbleweed!! That new FP wil be sweet.

And, AC matters more in the raids. Mostly versus those red named Orthons and the Renders. I'll update the thread for module 7 soon.

We had an AC-focussed character in the party toward the end of a marathon run of Vision of Destruction, and they were incredible. Suulomedes was the only thing that could really hurt them, and only with melee (he tends to alternate between cleaves and chain lightning). Even without buffing themself to the max, they could take on the rednamed Orthons three at a time, kite them around, do a little damage and let the rest of the party deal with one Orthon at a time while I meleed Suulomedes to distract him.

On hard, I assume they'll need to fully buff to do this - on elite, they'll probably still get hit a fair bit even with an uber AC.


I'm considering trying to make a version of this build with higher Dex that uses +5 mith BP, has several rogue levels, and can either play the Intimitank role, or when just DPS is needed and a cleric has SP to burn, can Diplomacy to shed aggro so as to use sneak attacks like crazy.

[Borror0]

On normal.. Which is the key point on normal ac mattered in the shroud.. We will see if ac matters any on elite..

I think it'll be fine on Hard, but not on Elite. The Xoriat Renders already hit pretty hard in the Hound.
Anyway, that quest is cake with a good group.

We had an AC-focussed character in the party toward the end of a marathon run of Vision of Destruction, and they were incredible.

It really is.

[maddmatt70]

I think it'll be fine on Hard, but not on Elite. The Xoriat Renders already hit pretty hard in the Hound.
Anyway, that quest is cake with a good group.



It really is.

you asked me before what class had a great chance to solo the hound and you may be surprised at my answer - a battle bard... Buff those dogs keep them alive and survive baby... Really you don't need much of anything for this quest just max songs, haste, little healing, and somebody to keep the few flensers off the dogs..

[maddmatt70]

[QUOTE=sirgog;1743182]We had an AC-focussed character in the party toward the end of a marathon run of Vision of Destruction, and they were incredible. Suulomedes was the only thing that could really hurt them, and only with melee (he tends to alternate between cleaves and chain lightning). Even without buffing themself to the max, they could take on the rednamed Orthons three at a time, kite them around, do a little damage and let the rest of the party deal with one Orthon at a time while I meleed Suulomedes to distract him.

/QUOTE]

I have seen a high defensive tank model, but I have also seen groups with high dps be successful in there as well because they kill everything fast.. It is a horse apiece really..

[Illuminati]

B, what AC did you go in with?

[Borror0]

B, what AC did you go in with?

I'll quote my friend Inspire for the Hard run:
"**** dude, these guys are hitting through my 62 AC so easily", we were in a PuG.

I didn't notice it much on my hard run because stuff died so fast. (I had Stash on my side.)

[Borror0]

you asked me before what class had a great chance to solo the hound and you may be surprised at my answer - a battle bard... Buff those dogs keep them alive and survive baby... Really you don't need much of anything for this quest just max songs, haste, little healing, and somebody to keep the few flensers off the dogs..

The problem is the beholders. Even moire, if you're too slow... seems like they spawn big beholder that aren't killable. (At least, seeem to not be.)

[maddmatt70]

The problem is the beholders. Even moire, if you're too slow... seems like they spawn big beholder that aren't killable. (At least, seeem to not be.)

The beholders only spawn after some time has elapsed.. If you get the stones and buff the dogs they will not spawn..

[Borror0]

The beholders only spawn after some time has elapsed.. If you get the stones and buff the dogs they will not spawn..

You got to be quick, and you've got to make sure the tiny beholders don't get in the middle either.

[Inspire]

I'll quote my friend Inspire for the Hard run:
"**** dude, these guys are hitting through my 62 AC so easily", we were in a PuG.

Man... I Went In With Allegiance On Elite, And I Buffed To A 70Ac, They Were Tearing Through It Still, I Felt Like All I Was Doing Tumbling Around With 5 Renders On Me, Waiting On The Cooldown For Whirlwind With A Vorpal... C'mon 20... Lol

We Completed It, But Its Nuts When You Intimidate Those Renders... I Do Not Wish This On My Worst Enemy... Lol

Bor Stay Away From Intimidate On Elite If You Dont Have A Cleric Right Beside You! Although Allegiance Only Has 366Hps Unbuffed... So Maybe Youd Fair Better.

[Inspire]

Btw, 70Ac Is Plenty For 1 Render, Is When You Have Them All Around You Its The Problem...
They Must Have Halfling Cunning Or Something... Sneaky Renders...

[Illuminati]

Yeah, it is what I noticed to. Solo 1v1 I was ok (had 69 AC on my ranger) but when I got flanked I started getting smacked pretty hard.

Normally they would get +2 but they must have some sort of sneak **** bonus.

[Borror0]

Normally they would get +2 but they must have some sort of sneak **** bonus.

Actually, thats more common than you think. A lot of mobs have sneak bonus, because there is no way they are rolling that many 20s.

[Inspire]

Actually, thats more common than you think. A lot of mobs have sneak bonus, because there is no way they are rolling that many 20s.

They Have Loaded Dice... I Refuse To Believe They Are Halflings In Disguise!

[Borror0]

They Have Loaded Dice... I Refuse To Believe They Are Halflings In Disguise!

What about spalshing rogue for Evasion? Maybe they powergame too?