Official Raid Loot Feedback Thread - USE THIS THREAD for feedback.

[Drith]

MY GUILD has ran Titan 3 times now.... all 3 times on ELITE ZERO LOOT.

TWO Black Abbott 12 manned raids.... BOTH ZERO LOOT !!!!

i dunno man.. i've ran a reaver raid and a titan raid since mod 5 was implemented; both 12 man raids. For the reaver raid, 3 pieces of raid loot dropped and for the titan raid, 6 pieces of raid loot dropped.

you guys must be rolling pretty crappy.

edit: reaver normal, Titan elite

This is EXACLY my point... the new raid loot system is a system that OVERLY rewards SOME and DRAMATICALY UNDER-REWARDS OTHERS!

This is 1000000000000 % Unacceptable !

[Spectralist]

It was introduced to REDUCE RAID LOOT!!! I have said this many times but it doesn't seem to click with some of you.

It doesn't click because you are wrong. With twelve people are in the group on normal its the same amount of loot overall. There will be times where there is none, there will be times where people think there's none cuz the guys who got it picked it up real quick and no one bothered to skim the chat log, there will be times where there's lots. But over the average, on normal its the same amount. On hard and elite its more. Unless of course they lied to us about the percentages. But i highly doubt that.

But that's not why it was changed either. People often complained about the old system, i was one of them. Many of them requested a system that worked just like normal quests, i was one of them too. When the dragon was first introduced especially there were a lot of people complaining about the raid loot mechanism, or so i am told, i wasn't playing at the time. The only real surprise is that it took so long to change.

[Vinos]

It doesn't click because you are wrong. With twelve people are in the group on normal its the same amount of loot overall.

While it's early the numbers are not supporting this position.

There will be times where there is none, there will be times where people think there's none cuz the guys who got it picked it up real quick and no one bothered to skim the chat log, there will be times where there's lots. But over the average, on normal its the same amount. On hard and elite its more. Unless of course they lied to us about the percentages. But i highly doubt that.

I doubt they lied but again they never came out and said which quests had elevated drops

But that's not why it was changed either. People often complained about the old system, i was one of them. Many of them requested a system that worked just like normal quests, i was one of them too. When the dragon was first introduced especially there were a lot of people complaining about the raid loot mechanism, or so i am told, i wasn't playing at the time. The only real surprise is that it took so long to change.

If you mean a very vocal minority of the already few players who actually use the forums then yes I will agree that many people complained.

Was a simple reduction in raid loot. Not some massive conspiracy to force you to have 12 man teams.

[Jaywade]

Why do you people think this system was implemeted to encourage 12 man raids? It was introduced to REDUCE RAID LOOT!!! I have said this many times but it doesn't seem to click with some of you. Also I would argue that the "casual" gamers generally don't really care about raid loot. If they want to grind it out with the rest of us then so be it. But then they wouldn't be casual gamers would they?

problem is they see as a doom sayer ....if you look at the all the posts of 0 loot dropping to the handfull of 4-5 pieces you could see there is less.....

[Spectralist]

While it's early the numbers are not supporting this position.

That's not necessarily true though. It's been shown time and again that people are more likely to comment on something negative than positive. For all we know the lucky people are simply not talking. I know i grouped with someone yesterday who claimed his loot success was 3, 4, and 7 out of the raids he has done since the change.

Was a simple reduction in raid loot. Not some massive conspiracy to force you to have 12 man teams.

I don't think it was a conspiracy of any sort. People wanted it changed and they changed it.

I very much dislike the fact that it is so random now, but it's still much better then it was. And i say that as someone who's raid loot has been 0, and 1 on 12 and 11 man raids.

[wiglin]

Their is not need to reduce raid loot in DDO. DDO was said to be different than the typical mmo. Raid loot at this point is how I can develop my characters that are capped. I am done rerolling unless we get a new class or race. This is not just my opinion either but that of people I have played with and talked to.

If Turbines goal was to decrease the amount of high end gear and loot then they will end up losing those of use that enjoy that aspect of character development.

I have already noticed the playtime of many friends getting less and less. Random just isn't a good idea when it comes to rewarding the efforts of the player base. I play DDO to have fun, that to me and many others I know is completing a dungeon for the first time, and developing our characters through gear. Since it does not take all that long to go through the quests, we are left with raiding, but that loses its appeal when the random loot demons keep giving us vender trash.

[Vinos]

Their is not need to reduce raid loot in DDO. DDO was said to be different than the typical mmo. Raid loot at this point is how I can develop my characters that are capped. I am done rerolling unless we get a new class or race. This is not just my opinion either but that of people I have played with and talked to.

If Turbines goal was to decrease the amount of high end gear and loot then they will end up losing those of use that enjoy that aspect of character development.

I have already noticed the playtime of many friends getting less and less. Random just isn't a good idea when it comes to rewarding the efforts of the player base. I play DDO to have fun, that to me and many others I know is completing a dungeon for the first time, and developing our characters through gear. Since it does not take all that long to go through the quests, we are left with raiding, but that loses its appeal when the random loot demons keep giving us vender trash.

Can't argue that. I was against the new raid loot system when it was 1st introduced. When they added the piece of loot for every 20th completion it became TOLERABLE but I am still not a big fan. It really bothers me with the new raid. While I have yet to complete it I would be uber mad if after beating it for the 1st time all that's in the chest is some hide armor and +3 wis +5 bluff helms.

[Jaywade]

also funny thing about the old system.... I did not have a problem with old system, never saw a item get ninja'ed, saw lot's of people leave grp casue they didn't like loot poilcy of that grp hell even me I left a grp before casue I didn't like something that they wanted to do, I short maned stuff for better odds, I never had a problem finding a grp, I never had a problem with old system, also never grp ith someone who "hated" it and thus it was grossly unfair...... and it was something to shoot for....I remember w/ great pride the first time I 10, 9 , 8 ,7 ,6 , 5 maned the dragon, or 2 man the dq, 4 manning the reaver....for the folk's I play with that was something to shoot for being able to have the know how and the ability to short man a raid and the payoff was better odds of getting something....people forget 6 man a dragon raid 4 people got no raid loot 12 man it now 12 people can/do get no loot often.... how does that make sense...... this whole arguement is senseless casue they are NOT changing this....they wanted less raid loot to drop...it is so they are happy, they want us to grind to that magic number of 20 to choose a item we may or may not want/use....they have to do this no new content till dec/jan they need to keep us busy....

I've always been a grinder, so having to grind doesn't bug me that much, I'll still get what I want .... it will just take longer......problem is you got a few folks saying yepee we can all get raid root now....and honestly that's not true, less is dropping now not more..... run 10 raids keep track for yourself you will see

[Deragoth]

I think it should be a combination of these two ideas.

NEVER drop gems.
NEVER drop scrolls.
NEVER drop potions. (not even nmeonics.)
NEVER drop ammunition

It SHOULD drop gear that is quest level to quest level -2.

Personally I think the biggest problem is doing a 12 man run and have not a single raid item dropping.
I suggest the following change to the loot drops, so it works that way:
- first, everyone gets a x% chance (e.g. 1/6) to get a raid item
- second, if NOONE in the party got lucky and got a raid item, then with probability n / 12 * (1 - x)^(12 - n) (where n is the number of members in the party) ONE random member is picked and is awarded a piece of raid loot (the rest of the time, too bad, no raid loot is awarded at all)

If I'm not mistaken, this should lead to a probability of raid loot that is still independent on the number of party members, and yet guarantee at least 1 item for a full group.

Here are simulations based on 1/6 chance (n = numbers of party members, avg_items = average number of items per person per run, no_item = fraction of runs with no raid loot dropping):

1. Current system

n = 1: avg_items = 0.166451 (no_item = 0.833549)
n = 2: avg_items = 0.1666 (no_item = 0.69423)
n = 3: avg_items = 0.166472 (no_item = 0.578561)
n = 4: avg_items = 0.166775 (no_item = 0.482838)
n = 5: avg_items = 0.166691 (no_item = 0.402217)
n = 6: avg_items = 0.166451 (no_item = 0.335056)
n = 7: avg_items = 0.166193 (no_item = 0.279484)
n = 8: avg_items = 0.166735 (no_item = 0.23336)
n = 9: avg_items = 0.166527 (no_item = 0.193579)
n = 10: avg_items = 0.166427 (no_item = 0.161364)
n = 11: avg_items = 0.166765 (no_item = 0.134477)
n = 12: avg_items = 0.167196 (no_item = 0.112568)

2. My proposed variant:

n = 1: avg_items = 0.176033 (no_item = 0.823967)
n = 2: avg_items = 0.175368 (no_item = 0.676112)
n = 3: avg_items = 0.176334 (no_item = 0.550443)
n = 4: avg_items = 0.175961 (no_item = 0.444926)
n = 5: avg_items = 0.176547 (no_item = 0.354295)
n = 6: avg_items = 0.176215 (no_item = 0.279182)
n = 7: avg_items = 0.176161 (no_item = 0.213348)
n = 8: avg_items = 0.175977 (no_item = 0.158163)
n = 9: avg_items = 0.176478 (no_item = 0.109995)
n = 10: avg_items = 0.175923 (no_item = 0.067926)
n = 11: avg_items = 0.175933 (no_item = 0.031942)
n = 12: avg_items = 0.175809 (no_item = 0.0)

[tihocan]

That's a nice idea.

Thank you

[Gaermain]

Personally, do I like the new raid loot mechanic? Absolutely. Previously, the loot basically belonged to the raid leader. I can't count the number of times I've been subjected to or witnessed people getting completely locked out of raid loot they helped gain. That problem has been solved, and I feel that's a good thing.

However, I do see how the new loot mechanic can irritate people with different goals and/or playstyles. I don't think though, changing the loot mechanic back is the answer.

I've helped a player short-man a raid to obtain a certain piece of loot in the past. If this new mechanic had been in place back then, the 20 completion requirement would've been filled prior to that stupid piece of armor actually dropping, lol.

The answer, I belive, is in the flagging. Either make the DQ and Dragon like the Titan and Reaver in regards to pre-req, or drop the static loot pick for the DQ and Dragon 10 instead of 20.

The Dragon is the first chain raid new players in this game will be exposed to. The pre-reqs for this raid can be resource intensive when you do them at level. This raid continues to get 'tweaked' because of the ease level capped players have (and it should be easy when you're over level), making them more difficult for people running them at level. Lower level players can hack and slash their way through the pre-reqs, getting to the raid, beating the raid - and getting....
NOTHING.

Now, they have to run the entire pre-req again for yet another chance to get...nothing or, a chance to get 6 items. That, in my opinion - needs some tweaking.

Under the new system people are going to get their loot. EVERYONE is going to get their loot, eventually. On one hand, people may not get it the 5th time like they were able to in the past. But on the other hand they won't have to wait until the 42nd time either.

To summarize: Leave the loot mechanic. Nix the Von 1-4 pre-req as it stands, and the DQ 3 quest pre-req as it stands. I can understand not wanting to make it like the Titan, and also having it be too complex at this point to make it like the Reaver. That being the case, drop the requirement to 10 instead of 20.

And I know it probably doesn't belong in this thread...but please think twice about 'tweaking' lower level raids for what appears to be a result of higher level characters running them...it's not fair to the lower level characters and will most likely leave a bitter taste in their mouth and turn them away.

[wiglin]

Personally, do I like the new raid loot mechanic? Absolutely. Previously, the loot basically belonged to the raid leader. I can't count the number of times I've been subjected to or witnessed people getting completely locked out of raid loot they helped gain. That problem has been solved, and I feel that's a good thing.

However, I do see how the new loot mechanic can irritate people with different goals and/or playstyles. I don't think though, changing the loot mechanic back is the answer.

I've helped a player short-man a raid to obtain a certain piece of loot in the past. If this new mechanic had been in place back then, the 20 completion requirement would've been filled prior to that stupid piece of armor actually dropping, lol.

The answer, I belive, is in the flagging. Either make the DQ and Dragon like the Titan and Reaver in regards to pre-req, or drop the static loot pick for the DQ and Dragon 10 instead of 20.

The Dragon is the first chain raid new players in this game will be exposed to. The pre-reqs for this raid can be resource intensive when you do them at level. This raid continues to get 'tweaked' because of the ease level capped players have (and it should be easy when you're over level), making them more difficult for people running them at level. Lower level players can hack and slash their way through the pre-reqs, getting to the raid, beating the raid - and getting....
NOTHING.

Now, they have to run the entire pre-req again for yet another chance to get...nothing or, a chance to get 6 items. That, in my opinion - needs some tweaking.

Under the new system people are going to get their loot. EVERYONE is going to get their loot, eventually. On one hand, people may not get it the 5th time like they were able to in the past. But on the other hand they won't have to wait until the 42nd time either.

To summarize: Leave the loot mechanic. Nix the Von 1-4 pre-req as it stands, and the DQ 3 quest pre-req as it stands. I can understand not wanting to make it like the Titan, and also having it be too complex at this point to make it like the Reaver. That being the case, drop the requirement to 10 instead of 20.

And I know it probably doesn't belong in this thread...but please think twice about 'tweaking' lower level raids for what appears to be a result of higher level characters running them...it's not fair to the lower level characters and will most likely leave a bitter taste in their mouth and turn them away.

People are not guranteed to ever get the loot they want under the new system. It is based on chance. Even on the 20th completion they only get a 50% chance at what they want.

I do not pug raids, so I never had an issue with the old system. We always allowed everyone to have a fair chance at the items they wanted, and if it was an item that could 100% be used better by a certain class we let them have it.

If you had problems under the old system, then it was more the leader of the party and not the system.

I had a friend (sorcerer) who was the only one not to wipe in the reaver recently. He completed the puzzle while pk'ing the elementals. Then a +3 Cha tome dropped that a fighter did not want, so he just gave it to a wizard. So the new system can have same flaw's when it comes to deciding who gets loot.

Now the +3 Cha tome belonged to the fighter and he could do what he pleased, so I am not upset, but to say that under the new system everyone will eventually get there loot is not correct. It is based on chance.

Under the old system it was also chance, but we new their would always be 2 pieces drop, so we could run the raid with our small guild and have a much better chance at the items if they did drop.

[Issip]

I've helped a player short-man a raid to obtain a certain piece of loot in the past. If this new mechanic had been in place back then, the 20 completion requirement would've been filled prior to that stupid piece of armor actually dropping, lol.

Seriously?? You helped short-man a raid over 20 times, meaning every 3 days for 2 months, or longer if you missed a day and didn't catch the cooldown window immediately???? Always with the same toon as otherwise it wouldn't count to your 20????

I've been playing since pre-order, and while I don't know the numbers I'm quite sure I haven't done any single raid with any single toon of mine anywhere near 20 times. That grind to me is completely out of the question, and even then you may not get the item you want.

I'm guessing some other nice items would have been picked up along the way as well, whereas with the new loot system I can easily see nothing dropping through 20 short man raids (a 5 in 6 chance of no loot to me is nearly a 100% chance as I am not that lucky).

[beeofdoom]

A lot of good points about the raid loot, I'd just like to emphasize:

1) 1 piece of raid loot should be guaranteed per raid, (I also like the idea of giving 2 for more than 6 people). If not enough pieces were dropped by the per-person random #, then the raid should pick a random raid item and randomly distribute it to a player, possibly repeating for the larger group scenario, (but not to the same player!)

2) The 20 raids per guaranteed list of raid items is somewhat troubling to me in its current implmentation. I *don't* like the fact that you are not given the full list of raid items. Considering that a minimum of 2 months of real-life time and anywhere from 20-60'ish hours of game-time will pass before a dedicated player will be able to get a guaranteed item, I think he should have the full choice off the table. Considering that most players will want multiple items for multiple characters from *each* raid, I don't think you have to worry about people leaving the game because they 'have everything'. I think it's far more likely players will leave the game due to being frusterated at not being able to count on a reward given any amount of time. Compounding this frusteration is the unequal amount of time that it takes to re-flag for the older raids....

3) Re-flagging on the older raids needs to be revisited, especially the Demon Queen! As more content is being added it's getting harder and harder to find folks interested in running lengthy pre-raid requirements, (that generally take longer than most people play in a day), for older raids, especially given the randomness of loot. I think the Titan is the ideal raid set up, but the mod 4 and mod 5 flagging methods are far preferable than those used for VON/DQ. The time spent getting flagged for Stormreaver/Abbot is no more than that spent in 1 month of re-flagging for DQ.

[Jaywade]

3) Re-flagging on the older raids needs to be revisited, especially the Demon Queen! As more content is being added it's getting harder and harder to find folks interested in running lengthy pre-raid requirements, (that generally take longer than most people play in a day), for older raids, especially given the randomness of loot. I think the Titan is the ideal raid set up, but the mod 4 and mod 5 flagging methods are far preferable than those used for VON/DQ. The time spent getting flagged for Stormreaver/Abbot is no more than that spent in 1 month of re-flagging for DQ.

Most grps I'm can flag for dragon or DQ in under a hour..... running the vons really doesn't bug me..... out of that whole chain the only quest I don't like is Von 5 going in there w/ 12 folks is a cluster f@#k and I'm amazed on how many people still don't know how/when with that quest......DQ isn't bad eithe rflagging with some guys form Amen (a guild on thelians) for the fastest time I've ever done 42 min total before we were ready for the 6 man dq.....I understand what your saying though to someone that doesn't play that much it can/is a long process..... that's not user friendly....it might take a casual player a year to run 20 dq raids and if how many pieces of loot do you think will drop out of those 20 raids used to be 40 I bet no more than 25 drop....that will be fun for him don;t you think

[Gaermain]

Seriously?? You helped short-man a raid over 20 times, meaning every 3 days for 2 months, or longer if you missed a day and didn't catch the cooldown window immediately???? Always with the same toon as otherwise it wouldn't count to your 20????

I've been playing since pre-order, and while I don't know the numbers I'm quite sure I haven't done any single raid with any single toon of mine anywhere near 20 times. That grind to me is completely out of the question, and even then you may not get the item you want.

I'm guessing some other nice items would have been picked up along the way as well, whereas with the new loot system I can easily see nothing dropping through 20 short man raids (a 5 in 6 chance of no loot to me is nearly a 100% chance as I am not that lucky).

Yes, helped. Helped as in ran it 5-6 times to assist their search for a specific piece of loot. And yes, they ended running it well more than 20 times to get it.

Me personally grind the heck out of a raid for a specific piece of loot? Uh, no. Not worth my time.

Now...I have done the grind dance in Delara's. More than once.

To an extent, I agree with you...which is why I would like to see the flagging systems change - or magic 20 number lowered.

[muffinlad]

Most grps I'm can flag for dragon or DQ in under a hour.....

Wow, that is impressive. I would have to say that your experience is entirely a-typical of the average DDO player though, but only from personal experience, and feedback collected from other players.

Not sure I want to set a reward policy based on what the highest skilled players (you and your guild) can do, and rather on what is fair to the typical player group.

42 min for a total DQ flagging (Dragon I have seen close to that) is pretty darn amazing.

Regs,

muffinconsort

[Riddikulus]

Wow, that is impressive. I would have to say that your experience is entirely a-typical of the average DDO player though, but only from personal experience, and feedback collected from other players.

Not sure I want to set a reward policy based on what the highest skilled players (you and your guild) can do, and rather on what is fair to the typical player group.

42 min for a total DQ flagging (Dragon I have seen close to that) is pretty darn amazing.

I wouldn't have believed it either except that I saw it first hand.

Offering is quick, that goes without saying.

Chains though? Under 15 minutes, I kid you not. The party leader basically solo'd it with the rest of us following about 50' behind him. It was a sight to behold.

WizKing in under 15 minutes also, but part of that was random luck with the king being in the first room.

Now could I lead a party in such a way? Never in a million years.

[Jaywade]

Wow, that is impressive. I would have to say that your experience is entirely a-typical of the average DDO player though, but only from personal experience, and feedback collected from other players.

Not sure I want to set a reward policy based on what the highest skilled players (you and your guild) can do, and rather on what is fair to the typical player group.

42 min for a total DQ flagging (Dragon I have seen close to that) is pretty darn amazing.

Regs,

muffinconsort

not saying they should....maybe you should read the whole post...... bottom line this new system sucks for the whole community as a whole, me it's not that big of a difference....but to many it will be a huge grind that they might not want to go through...

[Jaywade]

I wouldn't have believed it either except that I saw it first hand.

Offering is quick, that goes without saying.

Chains though? Under 15 minutes, I kid you not. The party leader basically solo'd it with the rest of us following about 50' behind him. It was a sight to behold.

WizKing in under 15 minutes also, but part of that was random luck with the king being in the first room.

Now could I lead a party in such a way? Never in a million years.

I don't care the class, I'm a zerger.....I'll do these speed flag runs w/ no cleric's in the grp..... and I'm by far not the best player in the world I mean I thought I was good than I ran w/ these amen guys (which also was my best time btw).....you go in chains w/ 2 sorc's and strong melee's guys and it's just a gore fest on the poor gnolls....wiz king is insanely easy to run in under 10 you just spilt up and find the king you don;t stop running you don;t get chest you just get to the king and you nuke his butt...... but bottom line is not everyone plays like me so reflagging to me is easy but is not for everyone else so is that fair ....