Official Raid Loot Feedback Thread - USE THIS THREAD for feedback.

[Caliban]

You should read the whole post.

And you should learn how to quote the correct post in the first place.

They asked for feedback. I gave it to them.

I didn't ask for your opinion on my feedback. Go bother someone else.

[Erinyes]

Personally, I think the new raid is an improvement.

I think its good to see more people being able to raid. But it shouldn't be something that has to happen either. Until the new mod, I enjoyed a run with 6-7 people on Reaver. It allowed for me to run with friends, and it made for a more of a challenge. Sometimes 12 people in a PUG is just a headache, no matter how nice (or not) the people might be. Since the update, I've ran almost every time with a full group on elite, hoping for more items. Also, hoping that people will share loot they don't need, and open more chances for people to get the items they want.

There really is nothing stopping people from "short-manning" for challenge, except for the ratio of drops. Maybe a possible solution, to meet in the middle, is having the chance of raid loot increase in multiple ways. We already have the increase of difficulty = better loot rate, but what about an increase in the raid loot possibility per person if there are less people in the raid, kind of like you get bonus exp if you finish a lvl 12 adventure with a party of lvl 10's. In this scenario, there is an appeal to both sides of the coin, and gives people the chance to explore both avenues for maximizing their loot chance. This also doesn't restrict people from raiding if its a slow night and they can't find 12 people, but could, at the same time, still leave people willing to invite more people if it can end with the same chance at getting a raid item either way. And it gives people the choice to play the game to their own personal style, which should be allowed as long as rules aren’t being broken. And if there is an exploit used that makes the raid able to be short-manned when it shouldn’t be, that is up to the dev’s to fix, as we’ve seen happen for a number of dungeons.

I think it's nice to see the 20th run end reward being raid loot. I think it’s not a bad idea to have the reward include all items from the raid - but what about tomes? If you include a selection of all tome possibilities as well to account for "all possible rewards", that seems a little silly, most of all with the +3's. I don't know anything about programming, but I think the raid list should only be an "include all" if it could, at the same time allow, for a random chance for a tome(s) to be added to the selection as well.

I don't think there should be a retroactive reward for loot on previously completed raids. This is a new system - on the old system you already have 20, 40, 60 or whatever, chances for one of two items each time you did a raid. Getting handed back items now, plus whatever a person would already have, is way too much to ask for. Now, for future new raids in new mods, I think the idea of having a first completion reward list of raid items might be an ok idea. Most raids have a number of items that each person would want for any given character, so I don't think getting one item automatically would deter people from raiding again.

I agree that there should be always at least one drop. (Suggestions of 1-6 1 item min, 7-12 2 items min seem fair also.)

However, I have a question towards how this could work – with determining who would get said “required” item for the raid quota. Everyone checks the chest at a different time, generally. Would it mean, if everyone else opened the chest first, would their rolls be tallied first and if they all rolled no loot, that the last person to open the chest would get a raid item automatically? Or is the chest loot determined the moment the instance is opened and the chest is created? I guess that would be my only concern about how to ensure that the raid loot appears, despite poor rolls. (Again, forgive my lack of technical knowledge if this is something very simple. )

Anywho, those are my thoughts. I have yet to see a raid with no loot drop. I’ve been mostly doing Reaver elite with 12 people and have seen 2,4,3,3 and 2 drops for raid items. Also had one item drop on a six man raid. Again, as many have said, the majority of people who play DDO do not spend the time on the forums unless they are upset about something, fond of forum roaming (as I have become at my new desk job ) or looking for the answer to a specific question. Short of doing a survey sent to every account, we can never get a true gauge of who likes vs. dislikes the new system. A poll on the forums would be cool, but again limited. It is nice to see opinions shared and that the developers are taking interest and hearing our opinions. But in the end, it’s about the fun!

[Issip]

New system is awsome! If anything, maybe the drop rates may need looked at, but NO changes that some people are crying for. Do NOT go back to set # of drops. All that does is encourage short-manning.

Should there be a chance of getting no loot at all for whole raid? Sure. But it should be just as rare as having 12 raid loot peices drop, unless short-manning.

Once again what is wrong with shortmanning? As I stated before my guild was having fun - we were always too small to fill a 12 man group but we were doing great running raids with fewer people. If you think we should put up an LFM to fill our raid group to 12 because that's how many you think should go, you are crazy. There is no incentive to add people you don't know to raids, it greatly increases the chance that you will wipe when they do something stupid.

Nice try, but if the goal is to force us to raid with 12 people I'd rather either shortman it or not run it, regardless of the loot change. It's not fun for anyone when one person wipes a raid, and it's not fun for me to try and lead people who don't know what they are doing time and time again. 20 raids on one toon, each time telling random people every little detail, and preying they are actually listening not getting up to get a beer while you explain the strategy - not fun at all.

The raids can be done with a few people, changing the loot doesn't change that. I dont' see the incentive in adding unknown players to fill out a group when they are not needed in the raid, they are only extra loot pullers. That is ridiculous, and that seems to have been the goal.

Make the raids harder if you want to prevent shortmanning. Make the loot so unlikely it fails to be an incentive to raid if you don't want people to raid. The loot rule change, if done to prevent shortmanning of raids, is the worste band-aid dodge of the real problem (raids that can be done with 1-2 people) I have ever seen in an MMO (and I played SWG for years).

[wiglin]

Once again what is wrong with shortmanning? As I stated before my guild was having fun - we were always too small to fill a 12 man group but we were doing great running raids with fewer people. If you think we should put up an LFM to fill our raid group to 12 because that's how many you think should go, you are crazy. There is no incentive to add people you don't know to raids, it greatly increases the chance that you will wipe when they do something stupid.

Nice try, but if the goal is to force us to raid with 12 people I'd rather either shortman it or not run it, regardless of the loot change. It's not fun for anyone when one person wipes a raid, and it's not fun for me to try and lead people who don't know what they are doing time and time again. 20 raids on one toon, each time telling random people every little detail, and preying they are actually listening not getting up to get a beer while you explain the strategy - not fun at all.

The raids can be done with a few people, changing the loot doesn't change that. I dont' see the incentive in adding unknown players to fill out a group when they are not needed in the raid, they are only extra loot pullers. That is ridiculous, and that seems to have been the goal.

Make the raids harder if you want to prevent shortmanning. Make the loot so unlikely it fails to be an incentive to raid if you don't want people to raid. The loot rule change, if done to prevent shortmanning of raids, is the worste band-aid dodge of the real problem (raids that can be done with 1-2 people) I have ever seen in an MMO (and I played SWG for years).

QFT

[Snike]

Once again what is wrong with shortmanning?

Two post down from the one I quoted I answered that question.

Short-manning is fine if you want the challenge. The way it was prior MOD5 it was the only good way of getting RAID LOOT. You could run 10 raids without getting a drop. Or you could run 10 Short-man raids and get 5-15 drops. That is what people's problem with short-manning a RAID.

The amount of RAID loot per player ratio, people were pulling with 2-3 man teams in a weeks period was just getting dumb.

Before there was complete incentive to short-man it. Why bring ,more when it equaled less loot per person.

[muffinlad]

there is no way that is true click on luthren's name he has a thread where loot dropping his being reported....less raid loot is dropping not more....

I think I already politely indicated that I did not feel that posting request was in any way valid. I mean no insult to Luthren by pointing that out, again, and once again asked for Turbine to look into the numbers, after indicating that my own "feeling" for the improvement was also flawed. If that was less than clear, I state it again, for the record.

My "gut feeling" that loot has improved and that individual reports to me, and people I know, seem to show that while loot quantity has improved, the anger with times that there is ZERO loot has dramatically increased negative feedback. Is my "gut feeling" valid? NO. It is just what I am seeing, encountering. Turbine however, knows the answer.

Further, from my perspective, less loot would actually be a good thing, but ZERO loot for a 10+ man raid is the real delima. I think someone pointed out that there is an 11% chance for no loot, and 1 in X billion chance for 12 items, and that they would setting for a 1 in x billion chance for ZERO items....and so would I.

muffinbudda

[Twerpp]

I can tolerate it. It's not fantastic or much better or worse than the old system, but it's ok.

[Jaywade]

I think I already politely indicated that I did not feel that posting request was in any way valid. I mean no insult to Luthren by pointing that out, again, and once again asked for Turbine to look into the numbers, after indicating that my own "feeling" for the improvement was also flawed. If that was less than clear, I state it again, for the record.

My "gut feeling" that loot has improved and that individual reports to me, and people I know, seem to show that while loot quantity has improved, the anger with times that there is ZERO loot has dramatically increased negative feedback. Is my "gut feeling" valid? NO. It is just what I am seeing, encountering. Turbine however, knows the answer.

Further, from my perspective, less loot would actually be a good thing, but ZERO loot for a 10+ man raid is the real delima. I think someone pointed out that there is an 11% chance for no loot, and 1 in X billion chance for 12 items, and that they would setting for a 1 in x billion chance for ZERO items....and so would I.

muffinbudda

I raid a lot ...... 6 14's lvl toon 1 9th lvl that's already done 2 dragon raids..... I've seen 4 pieces drop 2 times , 3 pieces 2 times 0 2 pieces, 1 piece 3 times out of 15 raids ....btw that's 17 pieces when 30 would of dropped under old system....I think it is working how they want casue I agree they want less raid loot for folks ....if that is the case they should say it......under this system though less loot is falling now I have guys that raid just looking for +2 and +3 tomes other than my lowbie's I'm not looking for raid gear ...... thing is I promise you newer players and folks that weren't into raiding under the old system will never catch up .....ever... now maybe you don't care and if so that's fine.....but saying that more people have a chance at raid loot is crazy and not true....numbers don't lie....btw out of 15 raids 10 times no loot dropped sure 4 dropped twice and 3 dropped twice as well...10 raids where no one got anything to show for it.....that should not happened ever

[Lormyr]

I'd like to weigh my voice in on this matter by saying that while I may not know if I believe this method is "better" or "worse" than the other, I can say with certainty that I do not like the current raid loot mechanic.

For me, the chance (and I say chance loosely based off my experience with it so far) to have a few extra items drop does not begin to compensate for the times you complete the raid only to find no items at all.

[Jaywade]

I'd like to weigh my voice in on this matter by saying that while I may not know if I believe this method is "better" or "worse" than the other, I can say with certainty that I do not like the current raid loot mechanic.

For me, the chance (and I say chance loosely based off my experience with it so far) to have a few extra items drop does not begin to compensate for the times you complete the raid only to find no items at all.

well said...../signed

[loki523]

I'm starting this thread for any player who would like to give us CONSTRUCTIVE...

Why should we bother posting here? We've given plenty of constructive feedback ever since Mod 1 and been straight up ignored...

There have been plenty of awesome variants on the token based system laid out so that Turbine had nothing left to do but do it.

There have been plenty of awesome variants of the old wardstone system laid out, raid loot drop rates, etc. All of it has been ignored.

What Turbine chose to do with the raid loot system is ignore ALL feedback, implement a system that everyone despised, stick with it for a year and a half ignoring all negative feedback, then spring a raid loot change on us that everyone hates even more! We (by "we" I mean those of us who actually understood how this was going to pan out) even TOLD Turbine we were going to hate this new system and they still ignored us completely and rolled it out anyways.

Why would we think 20 pages of saying the same things over and over will help this time?

[Luthen]

I'm gonna continue to repeat this until Turbine aknowleges it or I get convinced Im wrong. Neither is likely to happen soon.

1) Every raid should yield at least one guarenteed drop minimum with a chance for loot for everyone else.

2) It is never acceptable to have no raid loot at the end of a raid.

3) The new system isn't horrible and has some really good merits but, as previously mentioned, no reward is never an acceptable solution at the end of a raid. Lets find a middle ground please.

[Jaywade]

what kills me is that people think no believe that more raid loot is dropping than before...... talk about the wool over the eyes ....... I like what you said loki I disagree though....I think they wanted to do this TO lower raid loot drops pure and simple...take SOS what capped barb doesn't have this sword???? if you raise your hand you don't use 2 handed weapons often, or don't ever play and or raid, must not be a member of a guild...... everyone has this weapon I've done quests when 3 out of the 4 melee's had one.... Turbine and the "I don't have good loot" crybabies don' like this so guess what....a lot less folks will have one...pure and simple.... I would love a dev to respond to this and say we did not intend for less loot to drop you have just seen bad luck.... won't happen

[Dirac]

Why should we bother posting here? We've given plenty of constructive feedback ever since Mod 1 and been straight up ignored...

There have been plenty of awesome variants on the token based system laid out so that Turbine had nothing left to do but do it.

There have been plenty of awesome variants of the old wardstone system laid out, raid loot drop rates, etc. All of it has been ignored.

What Turbine chose to do with the raid loot system is ignore ALL feedback, implement a system that everyone despised, stick with it for a year and a half ignoring all negative feedback, then spring a raid loot change on us that everyone hates even more! We (by "we" I mean those of us who actually understood how this was going to pan out) even TOLD Turbine we were going to hate this new system and they still ignored us completely and rolled it out anyways.

Why would we think 20 pages of saying the same things over and over will help this time?

I hate this because it's negative, and I've tried very hard here to provide constructive suggestions. I've spent a lot of time reading all this stuff and thought a lot about what would work for everyone. HOWEVER ...

everything Loki says here is 100% correct.

[muffinlad]

....numbers don't lie....btw out of 15 raids 10 times no loot dropped sure 4 dropped twice and 3 dropped twice as well...10 raids where no one got anything to show for it.....that should not happened ever

Yes...I agree. But people do. I am not saying you are, but you could be. I could be. (and, HONESTLY, I am NOT trying to insult you in any way....I am just making the point regarding self reported stats.)

In the end, no matter what you are reporting as results, or what I am reporting as results, becomes statistically insignificant other than as a statistic on what people are self reporting on a forum. Nearly worthless on anything other than an emotional responder level.

Turbine, OTOH, has the numbers. All they have to do is decide to share them with us, and the matter is settled on if the loot numbers are higher or lower.

But, should they not do so, that is fine too. Their choice. However, they do need to address my other ideas, and the ideas of others, on how to make the current system less disapointing, even if they make right decision (IMHO) to keep the loot awards as LESS than they were before.

Less Raid Items, but better chest end reward quality means more raids, and disapointment levels reduced. No scrolls, no potions, no gems, and item levels 10 to 14 with some higher chance at rare items makes the end reward chest just as fullfilling.

Regs,

muffinlootbravo

[Jaywade]

i hope they do look into this but I bet they don't

[Vhlad]

Less Raid Items, but better chest end reward quality means more raids, and disapointment levels reduced. No scrolls, no potions, no gems, and item levels 10 to 14 with some higher chance at rare items makes the end reward chest just as fullfilling.

Regs,

muffinlootbravo

I raid for raid loot. The kind of loot that is unique to the raid, and binds.
I do not raid for randomly generated loot. If I want randomly generated loot, I'll find it from a normal quest. i.e. instead of 1.5 hours doing von 1-6, I'll run ghosts 20 times.

[Riddikulus]

Here's an idea for people to shoot down:

What if everyone got one piece of random, bound, untradeable raid loot when you complete every raid?

Good, bad, stupid?


Crud *another* titanic docent.

[Vhlad]

Here's an idea for people to shoot down:

What if everyone got one piece of random, bound, untradeable raid loot when you complete every raid?

Good, bad, stupid?


Crud *another* titanic docent.

3/4 of all raid loot is 100% worthless. that last 1/4 has low drop rate.
If everyone got a random bound loot every time, then they will just put the drop rate of stuff like bereavement, nullcloth gown, ventilated bracers, etc etc, at 95%

Bound loot that no one has touched does not make much sense from a d&d perspective. If the loot binds, it should be on equip, or touch (in some cases). But that's another issue.

[Aesop]

OK here it is in quick and dirty form.


Chests in general drop loot at Quest Level -3

For Raids they should Drop the -3 or at least reduce it to -1 (the idea here is that raids require more resources on average and thus should have greater rewards right?)

on your First Completion of a Raid (or the First time a character completes a Raid after this is coded in) they get a Raid Item Quest Reward. Every 20 Completions of a Raid the character also gets a Raid Item Quest Reward.

All times that a character pulls from a Raid Chest they have a chance to pull one of the Raid Items from that Chest. This chance is based on the difficulty of the Raid. Normal 1:6 Hard 1:5 Elite 1:4.

Tomes should not be bound items (except the Favor Tome) but should instead have Minimum Level Requirments. +1=lvl 1 +2=lvl 7 +3=lvl 11 +4=lvl 15 +5=lvl 18

my thoughts anyway

this way people have guaranteed pullls on 1(or next after implementation) 20 40 60 etc etc decent chance on others and decent loot even when they do not pull a raid item


Aesop