Official Raid Loot Feedback Thread - USE THIS THREAD for feedback.

[Knightrose]

We did a 10 man reaver and got 6 drops.

Its called luck. Sometimes it swings your way, sometimes it doesn't. Either way the raids are rewarding. Whether you gain an item of high value or you get a named rare.

Why is this such a drama bomb for some of you?

I mean think about the formula for a moment:

Possibile solution 1: You get rewarded

Possible solution 2: You get rewarded

I think some of you gauge the value of the reward solely on your desire. That's a selfish and narrow argument.

[Borror0]

I agree there should be a minimum of 1 or maybe 2 pieces of raid loot for every raid. However, how does one determine who gets it, if it is guaranteed?

I'd say one, two would be too much of an upgrade vs the previous system.

Say roll for loot, if no loot was given. 1dX where X is the number of player in the group. Player Y get the item where Y is the result of the dX.

We did a 10 man reaver and got 6 drops.

Its called luck. Sometimes it swings your way, sometimes it doesn't. Either way the raids are rewarding. Whether you gain an item of high value or you get a named rare.

Why is this such a drama bomb for some of you?

I mean think about the formula for a moment:

Possibile solution 1: You get rewarded

Possible solution 2: You get rewarded

I think some of you gauge the value of the reward solely on your desire. That's a selfish and narrow argument.

Reaver is a bad example. Say you did Titan twice and nothing dropped the two times... you'd be really ****ed of. Titan is long.

[Bunker]

Did a 6 man Titan on normal and got 2 drops of Raid Loot. One person was on there 20th Titan Raid and there end loot at the quest giver also yielded a Raid loot item. (even a +2 tome) I however was on my 27 Titan Raid with that toon and I was not given a choice of Raid Loot a the quest giver. *sigh

Luthen: I agree that they need to fine tune this system. (espeacially when on an Elite run) I hope that everyone has better dice rolls in the future. If on Elite, it would be nice if they did definitly have at least "1" person recieve Raid Loot in a Full party.

[Montrose]

Fully agree. the new system sucks.On elite the chances for raid loot are supposed to be one in 4 .If theres 12 people and no raid loot how is that one in four? Just wondering.

Note that the devs have said that the loot will only scale where the challenge does. The reaver is not significantly more challenging on elite than he is on normal, so it is likely that the loot drop doesn't scale on that particular raid. (Only difference is the elementals have better saves, but with mind fog/banish/FoD/PK/Dismiss they still go down fast)

[Borror0]

Only difference is the elementals have better saves, but with mind fog/banish/FoD/PK/Dismiss they still go down fast

From what I've heard, they also cannot be banished anymore as they have more than 24 HD. I'm not 100% sure because I'm always the main tank.

[scorn_the_infallible]

12 man elite titan 1 piece
12 man elite reaver 2 pieces

im done with this crapy raiding system prereqs are not worth running

[Citymorg]

If you say ok, these are the percentages for drops, BUT we will have ATLEAST 1 drop per raid. We will go back to people short manning it for the exact same reason they short manned it before the MOD. To increase thier percentages for getting raid loot. NO to at least 1 loot. If you should be asking for anything, ask for loot to be changed back, or for the percentages to be looked at and verified.

/signed. I was going to point this out as the problem with any guaranteed loot under the new system.

[sparkling_diamond_l]

I just ran the reaver raid with a group of 12, on 2 raid items dropped...one of which I got! It was my first real raid loot. So I must say that I like this new system. I had been excited for it since I heard about it, because my first thought was, "Yes, finally I will have a chance to get something"....and I did!

[Riggs]

As many had predicted when this was first proposed...

1. Getting rid of the glyphs is a very good thing.

BUT

2. Cutting the odds by a LOT , from what was already low odds, of getting a raid named item, especially one that you wanted, will only serve to drive people away from raids altogether, and the ones that do raid will only be even more annoyed and frustrated.

DDO was not supposed to be like other MMO's, and for the most part it is not. However adding in loot that you can only get from raids, and making it so only people who have the time to grind the pre-reqs, and raids, dozens of times over months can actually get items - seems quite frankly to be a mechanic from other games that slaps casual players out of the loop.

If I wanted to play games to grind I would play other games.

In D&D you could buy items. You could custom order items from a wizard. If you were a wizard, you could spend some cash, time, and MAKE your own Staff of Power etc. Since there is no way to do that in DDO, raid loot and grinding quests with special named items is the only way to aquire things over the random pulls.

As long as the chances of raid loot, and named items, and token drops etc - stay low, or keep getting lower (they are at least half, or even one-thrid of what you coud get with the glyph system), then a large part of the player base is going to give up ever raiding.

So what does a level 14 player do if they have gotten their 1750 favor, dont want to raid anymore, and dont have the patient to grind the bloodstone chest 50 times a week, for months, and still not get one, or any other named item that drops 1 in 1000 times (300 runs of pop and I have gotten a grand total, from all the possible named items in the rooms ONE named item, and no Kardins eye - those odds stink frankly)?

Those kind of players will either roll a new character, which is a false kind of option, because that character will also get parked as soon as they hit 14. The answer is now that there will be pretty much nothing to do unless you have the time and patience to run the same quest 100-400 times just for a chance of 1 item.

Unless they odds of raid loot go to at LEAST what they were before under the glyph system, ie at least 33% on normal, then people are simply going to find other things to do with their time than play DDO very soon.

I dont want people to quit that I play with, but frankly, what is sad that with all the other good changes that have come, this one change will make a lot of people give up playing a lot.

[Kalanth]

Maybe the drop rate should be examine but the old loot system was evil and should never be seen again.

I agree. Though on my first raid after the change I got raid loot, and saw a total of 3 pieces drop in a group of 11 (one unlucky soul went incap on a bridge and plummeted to their death). I can see that there is going to be a risk that there will not be any raid loot at all.

However, there was a good point made in that it is 1 in 6 per person, not per party. The odds are increased that way, but still net a good chance that no one will pull any raid loot at all. I have no answer for the 20th raid run, unless they mis counted their numbers

[McSurlykins]

hmm perhaps if there hadnt been so many posts complaining about the glyph raid loot system this would never have happened.....o well people always need sumthing to complain about i spose

[Strangelove66]

I was in those groups last night and while i understand your line of thinking, we did just that. After running the 1st raid and not getting anything, they said "OK, maybe it was just a bad rolls. Let's do a reaver and test the theory." And bam, again no raid loot again. So since we are talking about odds, what are the odds of running 2 raids with over 10 people in each and not getting a single peice of loot.

I don't hate the idea behind the new system. I don't even really disagree with that they are trying to do, but something is wrong. I have seen lots of post about people getting 0-3 peices of raid loot in 10+ groups and NOT ONE about people getting 10-12 peices of raid loot.

I say the devs should make the following change. If normally you get a peice of raid loot by rolling a 5 or 6 on a 1d6, then change it so you get the loot on a 1 or 2. If eveything is fair then it shouldn't matter.

I didn't get involved in the aurguments on this topic before it was released because i was willing ot give it a shot. I wanted to give the system the benefit of the doubt, but now i have tried it and i can say first hand. It is broken or applied incorrectly.

I encourage anyone who has run a raid since the patch and pulled 6+ peices of raid loot to post and let us know, but until i hear from someone who has i have to assume that what i am seeing is what is happening to everyone.

Basically what i am saying is that while the system works OK in theory, it must not thave translated to actual preactive very well or it is simply bugged and needs to be reviewed. Whatever the case, Turbine needs to look into it.

Since your post was in response to me I'll quote you and try to respond. You asked about the probability of a 12-man group running two raids, both on elite, and not receiving a single raid item. Under the assumption that there is a 1/4 chance per person of receiving a piece of raid loot on elite (as written in the Mod 5 release notes), that sums to a 0.10% chance. This is also assuming that the two raids are independent of each other (there is no reason why they should be dependent). That is a very low probability, one in a thousand. Impossible? No, but highly unlikely.

Now a question you may ask is, what if the raid looting chance doesn't scale with difficulty - ie elite really gives only a 1/6 chance per person. The probability of a 12-player group running two raids with the 1/6 "normal difficulty" loot chance, and not receiving any loot, becomes 1.26%. Now you're at one in a hundred, still very low, but more likely than 0.10%.

Which was the case here? Impossible to say, unfortunately, and I feel very bad for those that were cursed by the loot gods. But maybe the developers should re-examine the loot drop ratio to see if it really does scale, because The Ick's example is a one-in-a-thousand chance.

(the following is mostly speculation and disjointed thoughts, my apologies!)
There is no question that the developers really wanted to reduce the flow of raid loot and make raid items that much more rare. Why? Well my (uninformed) guess is that it was an attempt to try to halt the benefits of doing raids with very few people. It was likely the lesser of two evils - either change the raids so that they cannot be completed without say 8+ players, or just reduce the loot per player ratio, which they did. Now I'm not trying to brag here (and to prove that I won't list my server or character names), but I have probably soloed the Queen raid about 15-20 times with my primary character. I have all of the great items from her - 3 stoneskin rings, Torc, Jerky, Sandstorm, crossbow, gloves, etc. (everything except the cloak). There are others like me, that have also soloed the Queen and Reaver many times, or two-manned the Titan, etc. Now the question is, was this sort of raid loot acquisition originally intended by the developers? I very much doubt it, and I guess it finally got to a point where something had to be done before the divide between the casual and raid player got to be so large that either the content would be too easy for the dedicated player or very difficult for the casual player.

Myself? Well, I won't be doing the Queen anymore, nor Velah, partially because I don't really want/need their items, partially because I don't want to spend the time to do the pre-requisites, and partially because I'm not close to a 20-denomination. But that won't stop me from enjoying the game with others, and I hope it doesn't stop you either. May you be blessed by the loot gods.

[QuantumFX]

OP: Bad luck was against you bro. Did Velah and the reaver last night with a 7 man team and got 3 pieces of loot. (Personally pulled the Reaver Gloves and traded them for a Paralyzing LS. )

[Duplicate_18]

12 Man Reaver Raid last night on Elite.
3 Drops:
Ring of Lies
Cleric Gloves
Cloudburst

Other Items of Note:
+6 Int Hat
+6 Con Necklace

No Complaints here. I pulled Gloves and I gave away to a pick up Cleric.

And on the 20th Run thing...It is retroactive, divisable by 20, so you only get on your 20th 40th 60th etc runs. So if you were on run 19...just one more to go, run 23...17 more to go. There is a whole thread on it somewhere in the Dev forums.

[The_Ick]

Since your post was in response to me I'll quote you and try to respond. You asked about the probability of a 12-man group running two raids, both on elite, and not receiving a single raid item. Under the assumption that there is a 1/4 chance per person of receiving a piece of raid loot on elite (as written in the Mod 5 release notes), that sums to a 0.10% chance. This is also assuming that the two raids are independent of each other (there is no reason why they should be dependent). That is a very low probability, one in a thousand. Impossible? No, but highly unlikely.

Now a question you may ask is, what if the raid looting chance doesn't scale with difficulty - ie elite really gives only a 1/6 chance per person. The probability of a 12-player group running two raids with the 1/6 "normal difficulty" loot chance, and not receiving any loot, becomes 1.26%. Now you're at one in a hundred, still very low, but more likely than 0.10%.

Which was the case here? Impossible to say, unfortunately, and I feel very bad for those that were cursed by the loot gods. But maybe the developers should re-examine the loot drop ratio to see if it really does scale, because The Ick's example is a one-in-a-thousand chance.

Thanks for working out the numbers Strange. One-in-a-thousand, there just has to be somethiing wrong here. We are a very raid heavy guild and a lot of people are against running them now. Where there some bad rolls involved, sure. But even bad rolls can't explain a 1 in a 1,000 chance. Especially when this same situation is being reported all over the place my all different people.

I like to think that i am fairly logical person and logic is telling me that i am hearing about more no/low loot raid then high/all loot raids. Logically that tells me that something is not right somewhere in the loot system.

As you said strange, at a minimum the new loot system needs to be examined. People can talk about bad rolls and luck all they want, something just isn't right.

[Knightrose]

That's true.

Personally if they're gonna change anything. They need to nuke the Dragon and Queen pre-reqs.

It's just cumbersome, boring and lame to rerun them everytime solely to gain an item you've used many, many times. They don't feel like dungeons anymore.

[jaitee]

todays data

titan: Elite
# of people: 12
total raid item drop: 1(visor)

Reavers: Elite(ran 4 times)
# of people: 12
total raid item drop: 2(teason and head)

Dragon: elite
# of people: 11
total raid item drop: 1(ironweave)

Demon Queen: elite(ran 3 times)
# of people: 12
total raid item drop:1 (jerky)


today we did 9 raids, 5 raid items dropped for 8 raid between 106 toons
we did pug... but the odds were horrible, i dont think i will be raiding as much anymore

[Cyr]

Ran elite reaver with 12 people, ran normal reaver with 8, ran hard reaver with nine people. Only raids i have ran since mod 5 went live...2 raid items in first one, none in second, and one in third. Also someone hit 20 on their counter and got a +3 con tome in their end rewards so tomes are in there, just not as common it looks like. So in other words all 3 raids we ran were under the individual raid average for teh people and the difficulty and we were well under the supposed average for people for the raids as a whole. Sure, we coudl have just had some bad luck or the odds could not be implementing correctly for parties of varying sizes (which should not affect loot drop chance per person). Also, in guild have had 3 other raids I have heard about so far where only 2 two items dropped in those 12 man, 8 man, and 10 man (all on normal). So with that sampling we have a pretty big gap in percentages from expected to actual.

Oh while we are talking odds, the shield fragments are preposterously rare and even those cool shields can not entice me to grind that doomsphere optional which bugs out all the time (if you don't know the waves sometimes just stop and the wraiths sometimes can not be hit by weapons because of a no dice roll bug).

Edit: Just noticed the nuking the DQ and dragon prereqs /signed. On the same note the guy to get the preraid open in the necropolis TAKES YOUR SIGIL when you advance the quest so it looks like we are dealing with another annoying grind to get access to that raid each time (seriously reaver was perfect, took some work, but doable adn then you never had to run silly quests that you have run 20 times already again with that toon unless you wanted to).

[The_Ick]

todays data

titan: Elite
# of people: 12
total raid item drop: 1(visor)

Reavers: Elite(ran 4 times)
# of people: 12
total raid item drop: 2(teason and head)

Dragon: elite
# of people: 11
total raid item drop: 1(ironweave)

Demon Queen: elite(ran 3 times)
# of people: 12
total raid item drop:1 (jerky)


today we did 9 raids, 5 raid items dropped for 8 raid between 106 toons
we did pug... but the odds were horrible, i dont think i will be raiding as much anymore

This says it all. I can't imagine this was the intended behavior.

[Arlith]

Or he was already close to 20......

Its not retro-active. The count started on Monday.

And on the 20th Run thing...It is retroactive, divisable by 20, so you only get on your 20th 40th 60th etc runs. So if you were on run 19...just one more to go, run 23...17 more to go. There is a whole thread on it somewhere in the Dev forums.

You sure?? When I do the /quest count or whatever that command is, I get goose eggs on all raids. And I have done them a time or three.