Official Raid Loot Feedback Thread - USE THIS THREAD for feedback.

[Braddock_Tharmwell]

Well you see. We both had the same opportunity to be right, but the system overcompesated one of us and the other one was undercompensated. And that's NOT FAIR!

LOL Ok then, I take 5% of madd's over-correctness and weld it to your 100% of in-correctness and render the whole mess as equal and thus Fair for everyone.

[Drith]

Bwwaahahhahahahahahahhahahhahah

Okay I made a new thread that is completely objective specifically defining the statistics and not talking about fairness or what not because that is subjective.

That way you guys can disscuss your opinions in that other thread regarding the actual facts instead of not even aknowledging the actual facts which is what has happened in this thread.

My only point that I want to get across is the actual situation that the new loot system is creating. Which has not gotten enough attention nor do I think the vast majority of people really understand it.

See you in the other thread.

[MysticTheurge]

Okay I made a new thread...

You're not supposed to make new threads about the raid loot system.

[Gornin]

I think the main problem is that we became used to a raid always providing a static reward in the form of 2 raid items, and the devs changed that because of some unsavory dealings and maybe they wanted to lower the amount of raid loot gained. Maybe they also wanted to encourage the group raid instead of shortmanning it.

Drith is exactly correct in that an RNG will make an average, but some will be at the low end of the average and others will be at the top - otherwise, how will you get an average without a low and high. Also, I have never seen an RNG that wasn't streaky.

I do agree with the majority that some reward should be evident in that resources (time, materiel) are expended in higher quantity in raids, and should provide higher (gauranteed?) rewards.

One way would be as, many have posted, to gaurantee one or two depending on the raid size. You say this would still encourage short manning somewhat. So what? I am in a small guild and we regularly short man since most of us have limited time and will put up an LFM, get a couple of puggers if possible, and head out with 4 to 6 party members regularly. Not because of the loot, but we want to do it and do not have the time to wait getting a full group together. I wanted to do TS last week for my rogue and toook almost 30 minutes to get a group together. I only have about 1.5 to 2 hours to play most evenings and that is a 1/4 of my time.

I am ok with the gauranteed 1 or 2 items with a small random chance of more raid items dropping depending on the size of the group.

I also think that the whole raid item list should be listed at the 20 mark, or cut out VoN 1-4 and the 3 DQ prereqs, but keep ADQ1 like VoN 5 and TF. If not, drop them to 10 for the bonus due to the time required to get flagged. I would even be ok with requiring the Gate Keeper preraid (minus the dragons) to do the Reaver again. In essence, you have to do the preraid before you do the raid every time, not the other quests.

Just for the record, I have 3 capped toons and only 3 peices of raid loot.
Since the change I have run the Reaver elite 3 times ( 2 pcs, 3pcs, 2 pcs) in full 12 man groups, and the Titan elite once in a 6 man group for 2 pcs. Our pulls are staying pretty average. I pulled 3 peices of the loot personally, but gave them all to people who could use them better than the toon I was running. This was actually a very unusual ocurrance. Ask any one in my guild. I rarely pull anything good. 2 of the peices of raid loot I have were because no one could use it or already had it, so it went to me by default.

The grind needs to go away or be lessened, and the rewards need to be some what dependable, in my opinion, and that is what I think the majority is trying to say.

[Riddikulus]

My only comment is that running a raid with any number of people and getting nothing should not be allowed.

I don't know how the raid item generation is done internally, but if it is possible I think that a zero raid item result should just be rerolled.

Here are some statistical analysis of doing just a single reroll on a zero item result.

Chances for a party of 12:

items	current	reroll
0	11.22%	 1.26%
1	26.92%	29.94%
2	29.61%	32.93%
3	19.74%	21.95%
4	 8.88%	 9.88%
5	 2.84%	 3.16%
6	 0.66%	 0.74%
7-12	 0.13%	 0.14%

Chances for a party of 6:

items	current	reroll
0	33.49%	11.22%
1	40.19%	53.65%
2	20.09%	26.82%
3	5.36%	7.15%
4	0.80%	1.07%
5-6	0.06%	0.09%

Chances for a party of 3:

items	current	reroll
0	57.87%	33.49%
1	34.72%	54.82%
2	6.94%	10.96%
3	0.46%	0.73%

Chances for a soloer:

items	current	reroll
0	83.33%	69.44%
1	16.67%	30.56%

This would improves a party of 12's chances dramatically for avoiding a zero item result, and as the party sizes get smaller the chances are improved but not by as much.

[Big_Russ]

Ask any one in my guild. I rarely pull anything good.

Yep. I can testify the the Loot Gods of Eberron do not have Gornin high on their favored list.

[Fallout]

I definately agree.

To keep it consistent with the new raids:

Remove Von 1-4.
Remove DQ's 3 preqs.

Have a guaranteed drop depending on difficulty and size.

Normal
1 in 6 drops. So on a normal run if the group is at least 6 people, 1 raid loot is guaranteed to drop. Rest is 1 in 6 chance. 12 man group, at least 2 raid loot is guaranteed to drop. Rest is 1 in 6 chance.

Elite

1 in 4 drops. So on a elite run, if the group is at least 4 people, 1 raid loot is guaranteed to drop. rest is 1 in 4 chance. etc etc.

There's nothing more frustrating then running a 12 man run, and nothing drops. It really discourages people, especially casual gamers.

I like it that it encourages pugs and large raid groups. But its cancelled out by the frustration that there is possibilty of 0 raid drops (which happens).

[Riggs]

*Raids should drop 1 item if there is 1-5 people, 2 items for 6-8 people, and 3 items for 9-12 people. People roll their odds as normal, so it is possible for more, but otherwise highest rolls get an item no matter what. No raid should ever drop 0 items. 16% odds are half of what they used to be, odds should really be at least 25% for normal, 30% for hard, and 35% for elite.
------------------------------------------------------------
The fallacy of rationalization is that; because raid loot is based off a currently randomish 1 in 6 chance - it is ok that some people get nothing for long periods of time.

For people who raid every other day, on several characters, it is easier to accept 'dry spells' becuase a) chances are they ALREADY ran all the raids enough under the old system to get most of what they wanted. b) knowing you will be raiding every 3 days no matter what gives you far better odds to get something - especially when your in a raiding guild that if someone else gets an item, they already have it and can just pass it to you - which is not an option available to pugs or more casual gamers.

The only real fair way to have 'random' raid drops is as long as there is a floor of probability. People roll as normal, but if no one gets their 1 in 6, whoever rolled highest still gets something. So is you bring 1-5 people to a raid, there will always be a mimimum of 1 item that goes to whoever rolled highest. 6-8 people, at least 2 items will drop, and 9-12 people - 3 items.

People play games to have fun, and pay for the right to play. Telling people "Oh tough luck, you ran Von 6 20 times already, but the dice rolled low again today, so no (x) for you. Maybe on your 40th run eh?" - is probably on the opposite side of what would be considered fun by most people.

D&D has magic shops where you can buy things you want. D&D has wizards (and Eberron Artificers) that can make a custom item for you for a price. DDO doe snot have that as of yet. So the ONLY way to get better than random junk is through raids and quests with named item drops. And named items range from meh, to far, far better than can ever be generated on a random table (and also ignores prefix/suffix limits - which should be gone from the generator anyway). So anyone who wants to improve their character in ANY way - needs named items. People have been capped for a long time. Favor is done for most 14th level characters. So no xp, no favor...what is left?

Some groups/players/guilds have raiding done pat, and can burn through them fast and easy, and can often get distainful sometimes about players that only raid once in a while. It takes a lot more time and effort for many people to get groups for raids, if they are in smaller guilds, guilds that dont raid every single day like clockwork, or are not in guilds at all (and avoid politics and drama) and so have to pug raids.

It is a false, and snobby reaction from people who play OTHER MMOs, and say "Raids are for the leet, only the leet should be able to raid and get raid itesm - the rest can go jump in a lake".

DDO was supposed to NOT be like other MMOs, and many people joined for that very reason. The glyph system was very wrong, and should never have been implemented. But replacing with a better system - and at the same time dropping the odds of getting an item by at least half - hasnt made things better.

many people want to a) improve their characters, and b) not have to spend 2-4 months running one character, in one quest/raid, just to get a single item better than what they have. That much grinding is not fun. But with the current odds - many people will have to run raids that many times just to get a decent chance for an item they want.

Some people go overboard and say the game is done, or everyone will quit. That is going a bit far. However - if a player who has played a character he/she likes, that is capped...and doesnt find 4 straight months of running von 1-6 a fun experience just to get odds approaching 100% of getting a wanted item...what do you think people will do?

As has been said - taking a break, or rolling a new character - are not long term options. Why roll a new character - just to park them once they also get to 14?

Until DDO adds crafting, or being able to buy custom items - raiding is the ONLY way to improve a capped character - and the current low odds are a fairly severe disincentive to raid for many. The shield/tome fragment drops being also low and hard to get to are in the same low fun factor, as are any quests that have to be run 50-100 time to just have a chance for a named item (how many people have ever looted a Kardins eye? out of how many 1000s of runs?).

Either the raid drop odds need to be doubled, as well as other quest named items increasing their drops rates, or buying custom items will have to be added.

Anything less spells a real blow to people wanting to play their capped characters. And that is far from good for the long term for DDO.

[nbhs275]

I fear we've found a flaw in the new raid loot system.

This evening a group of 10 ran Titan Awakes on Elite and received not one single piece of raid loot. I understand that the new system is a "1 in 6 cance" for loot to drop which increases in proportion if the raid is run on elite but no raid loot at all on an Elite raid? That's just not an acceptable use of players play time.

Find an alternative to no loot dropping on elite raids if not any level of raid because people will start to lose their patience receiving nothing for their work they put in. The system doesn't need to be like it was but again... NO raid loot on an elite raid is not an acceptable choice.

EDIT: We ran Stormreaver Hard with 9 people next after the Titan raid and again NO RAID LOOT DROPPED. Sorry Devs this is not acceptable. Those odds are not 1 in 6 and don't tell me we must have rolled crappy. On top of that we had someone run their 20th Reaver on a toon and did not get raid items in his end rewards.

EDIT: I am adding a post from later in this thread so newer readers get the infoi from it. The post was as follows.

Well we did some more testing just to see how it would pan out and here's what we've seen so far in a 50 hour period:

10 man Titan Elite - 0 items
9 man Reaver Elite - 0 items
8 man Reaver normal - 0 item
9 man Reaver Elite - 0 items
7 man Reaver normal - 1 item (Gloves)
9 man Reaver normal - 2 items (Tenderizer, Cloudburst)

Smodge13 posted:
11 man Reaver Hard - 0 items

Bizbag posted:
12 man Reaver Elite - 3 items

Tulsadoom posted:
12 man Titan Elite - 1 item
12 man Reaver Elite - 2 items

Qzipoun posted:
12 man Reaver Elite - 0 items

geoffhanna posted:
11 man Reaver Elite - 1 item

Prinstoni posted:
11 man Dragon Elite - 0 items
10 man Reaver Elite - 0 items

The_Hoff posted:
6 man Reaver Normal - 1 item
8 man Reaver Hard - 3 items
8 man Reaver Normal - 1 item
7 man dragon - 1 item

Brootus posted:
12 man Reaver (Difficulty?) - 0 items
12 man Reaver (Difficulty?) - 0 items

Borror0 posted:
12 man Reaver Hard - 1 item

Citymorg posted:
12 man Titan (Elite) - 1 item
10 man Reaver (Elite) - 1 item (He said 12 there but only 10 looted so adjusted based on number looting chest for comparison)

Knightrose posted:
10 man Reaver (Difficulty?) - 6 items

Bunker posted:
6 man Titan (Normal) - 2 items

Scorn the infallible posted:
12 man Titan (Elite) - 1 item
12 man Reaver (Elite) - 2 items

Sparkeling Diamond Love posted:
12 man Reaver (Elite) - 2 items (Grats on yer firt item Diamond)

Kalanth posted:
11 man Dragon? (Difficulty?) - 3 items

QuantumFX posted:
7 man Dragon (Difficulty?) - 1 item
7 man Reaver (Difficulty?) - 2 items (NOTE: Comment stated they did those 2 raids and got 3 items. unless corrected I assume 3 total not each)

Chosen one posted:
12 man Reaver (Elite) - 3 items

Jaiti posted:
12 man Titan (Elite) - 1 item
12 man Reaver (Elite) - 0 item
12 man Reaver (Elite) - 0 item
12 man Reaver (Elite) - 1 item
12 man Reaver (Elite) - 1 item
11 man Dragon (Elite) - 1 item
12 man DQ (Elite) - 0 item
12 man DQ (Elite) - 0 item
12 man DQ (Elite) - 1 item

Cyr posted:
12 man Reaver (Elite) - 2 items
8 man Reaver (Normal) - 0 item
9 man Reaver (Hard) - 1 item

Helmet posted:
11 man Titan (Elite) - 1 item
12 man Reaver (Elite) - 1 item
12 man Titan (Elite) - 0 item

Mad Bombardier posted:
12 man Reaver (Elite) - 4 items
11 man Reaver (Normal) - 0 item



Now that's 503 people total with a 1 in 6 chance for loot minimum and the math states, in a perfect world, that there should have been an average of, at least, 80 items minimum dropped (83.833333 to be precise). We see 64. I'm gonna take some more examples so this response will be edited over time.

EDIT: For a total of 50 raids the old system would have yielded 100 raid items. New system? 64. Do your own math now. I think that's a decent sample.

well, the thing is everyone who is posting here is mostly posting thier negative feedback. if you had all the people posting the good raids with multiple drops

Personally, in the last 2 days, i have done 10 seperate raids all on elite, with 12 people looting in each. and the lowest ive seen was two items, and most 5.( it was 3sets of 2, 4 sets of 3, 2 sets of 4, and 1 set of 5)

so for me, out of 120 people, 31 pieces, a little more then 1/4. So by what i've seen, it has been accurate. And as far as comparing current loot to pre-mod5 loot makes no sense. When you had people exploiting raids, and soloing or shootmaning.

Loot percent for a good player was 25% or above.

[MysticTheurge]

Here are some statistical analysis of doing just a single reroll on a zero item result.

....

This would improves a party of 12's chances dramatically for avoiding a zero item result, and as the party sizes get smaller the chances are improved but not by as much.

You know, while I've been strongly opposed to adding any kinds of "required minimums" to the loot, this isn't necessarily a bad idea.

If you end up with no raid loot in the chest, reroll everyone's treasure once, and only once. If it comes up no raid loot again, c'est la vie, but the chances of that happening are significantly decreased.

[Agarwaen]

I am not a complainer. I have been playing now for just over a month and am totally addicted to the game. In addition, I really like the mod 5 material I have played. Some of it is extremely creative and distinct from other quests. Wonderful job Devs!

However...

I just finished a dragon raid on Thelanis. Hannibal was group leader. 12 man raid. No raid loot for anyone. This really must be changed. It shouldn't be that hard to come up with something--anything--that ensures at least one person gets a raid item.

I am hoping and praying that we get a small fix to the raid loot system soon.

[Aesop]

DQ Raid on Hard

9 people

2 Raid Drops

Aesop

[CSFurious]

12 man

3 named raid loots: head of good fortune, dreamspitter, tenderizer

also +2 con tome

all popped in what used to be warded chest

i think you should do 12 man on elite & increase your odds

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

You know, while I've been strongly opposed to adding any kinds of "required minimums" to the loot, this isn't necessarily a bad idea.

If you end up with no raid loot in the chest, reroll everyone's treasure once, and only once. If it comes up no raid loot again, c'est la vie, but the chances of that happening are significantly decreased.

My understanding is that the generation of each persons' loot is done at their chest opening time, so the game doesn't actually know that there is zero loot until the last person has opened the chest, and by then everyone's already got their loot. The only way of implementing this would be to give the last person to open raid loot if the previous 11 people hadn't got any - which would obviously not be fair!

For a minimum of 1 raid item to be generated the whole mechanism of loot generation would have to be recoded, or the original 'raid loot chest' would have to return.

Garth

[Spectralist]

For a minimum of 1 raid item to be generated the whole mechanism of loot generation would have to be recoded, or the original 'raid loot chest' would have to return.

I cant pretend to know how they have it coded, but it shouldn't be difficult for them to simply roll loot at the time the chest spawns rather then when a person clicks on it.

This:

For all raid chests, players who are not in the dungeon at the time the raid boss is killed will not have loot generated for them and cannot have loot re-assigned to them.

in the weekly dev activities even seems to suggest that they might be working in that direction. It certainly says the engine is capable of checking who should get to roll for loot, and therefore should be able to roll it right then and there.

[MysticTheurge]

My understanding is that the generation of each persons' loot is done at their chest opening time, so the game doesn't actually know that there is zero loot until the last person has opened the chest, and by then everyone's already got their loot. The only way of implementing this would be to give the last person to open raid loot if the previous 11 people hadn't got any - which would obviously not be fair!

For a minimum of 1 raid item to be generated the whole mechanism of loot generation would have to be recoded, or the original 'raid loot chest' would have to return.

This should be relatively easy to fix. Since the raid chest is "locked in" when the raid boss is killed, just generate loot for each person in the quest at that point in time.

(It would mean you might end up with "no raid loot" more often if someone's unable to open the chest, but I don't think that's any different than now. It's just too late for me to be 100% sure.)

[tekn0mage]

Titan elite - 11 people

0 loot.


I don't care what you say about elite "improving" the odds, the end result is still the same. Less loot.

[Knightrose]

10 man Reaver elite

6 drops

2 gloves, 2 tenderizers, staff and necklace

We also had someone get a +3 DEX tome

No lies. Eclave is my witness.

[iconiclastic]

I do take exception to not getting any raid loot after 20 raids.I was told by several peeps that you get to choose from the raid loot as an end reward when you do that particular raid 20 times.Because of this I have started doing more raids,before I wanted no part of them because of false rolls based on guild points(haha the gm's took it out of your hands).Now that I am supposed to be guaranteed my "desired item" I don't mind wasting my resources doing them(time,plat,scrolls exe).It's exceptionally hard to get this kind of loot especially when there are only 2 things I want(squirt on +2and +3 tomes)so if you find that this is indeed true please post it so I won't waste anymore of my time

[iconiclastic]

I am not a complainer. I have been playing now for just over a month and am totally addicted to the game. In addition, I really like the mod 5 material I have played. Some of it is extremely creative and distinct from other quests. Wonderful job Devs!

However...

I just finished a dragon raid on Thelanis. Hannibal was group leader. 12 man raid. No raid loot for anyone. This really must be changed. It shouldn't be that hard to come up with something--anything--that ensures at least one person gets a raid item.

I am hoping and praying that we get a small fix to the raid loot system soon.

I like the content of mod 5 but the loot is garbage.It's the same old silver flame.I think the developers of this quest chain were the ones the gaming group picked on and now they want revenge