Originally Posted by Drith
The devil's easy fix: Random Number Generator.
The Random Number Generator is the worse thing that can be done to award those who put their hard time and work into any game.
The random number generator works based off of statistics. The statistics have been shown time and time again so I won't go into that.
What has NOT been discussed here (But was discussed before MOD 5 and the Developers IGNORED) is how the random number generator will follow a normal distribution curve which is posted for you below:
http://www.gfmer.ch/Books/Reproducti...h/Image211.gif
What this means is that everyone who says "Oh that's too bad that you got bad luck. Better luck next time" is 100 % wrong. Everyone who says "Would you be complaining if you got loot 3 times in a row" is 100 % wrong.
This whole discussion is about equality and fairness and currently the random number generator follows a normal distribution curve which is 100 % unfair.
It means that the majority of people will get a bit less raid loot... certain people will get more other will get less and that some people will get way way way more loot and others will get ZERO!
This is why this thread is full of "I LOVE IT" "I HATE IT" posts.
Obviously those who are getting more loot love it and those who are getting less loot hate it.
The absolute unquestionable FACT is that with this current system there will be lots of people who will get completely utterly scrwed out of raid loot. They will put in their hard time, work and effort just like everyone else does but they will get absolutely nothing to show for it.
Same goes for the far right side of the distribution curve.... some people who put in the exact same effort as those mentioned above who got no loot will get massive ammounts of loot. The closer you are to the center of the distribution curve the closer you are to the mean.
The solution to this is you have to put in place a system that does not use the random number generator as it's starting point for determining loot.
There are many many other systems out there some of which have already been suggested. 1 of which is already in the game. The "20 Completions" method.
Here is a small list of NON Random number generator systems that could be applied:
TOKEN SYSTEM:
Each and every successful raid completion generates 1 or more tokens for that given raid.
Normal = 1 token
Hard = 2 tokens
Elite = 3 tokens
These tokens can then be brought to the quest given and redeamed for loot. Please note that this system has been used in such games as World of Warcraft and was very successful.
Rewarding Repetition system:
Just like the current system where you get to chose which item you want from a list every 20 successful completions. HOWEVER for this to work you must make the item list the ENTIRE item list and not just a "selection" of the entire item list. Because if you do not do this then again you are using a random number generator and you will find that some people will run the quest 100 times wihtout getting the actual item they wanted.
I do not support the rewarding repetition system unless the FULL list of items is listed at the completion of the 20th raid.
Also I believe that if you remove the random raid loot completely from the warded chests then you should reduce the number of raid completions required from 20 to say 10.
[COLOR="yellow"]Increasing Favor Faction System:[/COLOR] can also be combined with the Token System. Just replace buying the items with cash to buying the items with Tokens however you still have to have done the raid xx number of times to unlock the best items.
The single turn in system:
This system is currently in place for the Black Abbott and works very well. It involves many quests (which promote grouping) to upgrade an item over and over again and then the item can finally be upgraded one last time after completing a raid! This system works extremely well and is working well in the game right now.
Another spin off on this system is you could implement quests which require you to bring the "head of the black abbott" to the quest giver for a turn in reward. Each raid boss could drop a different piece to be turned in... the titan could drop a special set of mechanics that a certain quest giver wants. The key to this system is that each raid boss must drop at least 1 or 2 of the special items each and every raid and then the lucky one at the raid to have gotten the item can then turn it in.
Notice this system has a lot of flexibility! You could say that there are 4 special items per raid boss and that each kill will generate at least 2 of the 4 items. (examples only) 1 item STR based melee, 1 for devine casters, 1 for pure casters and 1 for DEX based melee.
Please note that this system has also been used for over 10 years successfully in other MMO's (Everquest, FF Online, World of Warcraft, etc.)
I like these options. As I said before random is not a good way for raid loot. I want to know that if I work towards a goal I will get it. Not get a 1 in 6 chance for the computer to pseodorandom generate a pull.
Again I am ok with random raid loot -----> IF <----- the non-raid loot tables are adjusted so we do not pull vendor trash.
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10-09-2007, 04:34 PM #261Community Member
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Originally Posted by Drith
I like these options. As I said before random is not a good way for raid loot. I want to know that if I work towards a goal I will get it. Not get a 1 in 6 chance for the computer to pseodorandom generate a pull.
Again I am ok with random raid loot -----> IF <----- the non-raid loot tables are adjusted so we do not pull vendor trash.Server: Ghallanda
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10-09-2007, 04:38 PM #262Community Member
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QFT Originally Posted by Luthen
Luthen is right on here. It is frustrating to see the thread start to degenerate into power gamer vs. casual gamer or shortmaning thread. I don't think this is a casual/power issue. For those that like the new system (and I am one), is there no way to improve it?
For everyone completing a raid is a high point of the DDO experience. The first time is probably the highest point for many. It is simply not worth the negative impact to have nothing show up.
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10-09-2007, 04:41 PM #263Founder
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I have done all of these things. I have soloed the DQ and attempted the Reaver. I have run short man raids of 2-4 people on them both as well. I also run full raid groups weekly both with my guild and with PUGs. What is the difference? Each of these are my choices. I have plenty of raid loot, most of which attained from full raids not solo or duoing. I run no less then 5-6 full raids each week and short man only on late nights when there are not many on. However even if I was one of those who chooses to solo or short man a raid simply to attain loot just for myself isn't that the individuals choice? Originally Posted by Knightrose
Who is Turbine, or you, or anyone for that matter to dictate how we each "enjoy" the game. A person soloing a raid does not affect any other individual in anyway whatsoever. So they get more raid loot then you. So what. If everyone always did raids with 12 person groups then there would still be an unfair advantage for the hardcore 7 day a week gamers over the more casual gamers. There will always be something to place some players "ahead" of the game over others. Let them be that way. It's how they enjoy the game.
If this situation were reversed you would more easily see how silly it is. For example:
Turbine changes raids so that you can no longer enter raids with more then 2 people in the party in order to foster improved tactics and individual playing skills. Also the more people who are in a raid the less chance of looting raid loot you have.
How goofy does that sound? Now apply that goofy feeling to what's being done now. Turbine is definately responsible for how the game mechanics play out. Spells, quests and so on. When changes are made in the hopes it will force people to group more then they would prefer to then Turbine, or any company, has overstepped their rights. We all pay our $14.95 a month to play. You play however you want within the rules and let everyone else do the same. Those who want to group will and they'll enjoy it. Those who like to challenge themselves and solo or short man should be allowed the same chance since they're taking it upon themselves to make the game more of a challenge.Luthen || Eldormadoh || Luthian || Theodread || Madmardigan || Whillow || Earnur || Halbarad || Adnakhor
"A good player overcomes. A poor player is overcome" -Proud member of DWAT
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10-09-2007, 04:56 PM #264Community Member
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No, it's not. The statement I responded to said "the ability to get raid loot has been removed from us" as an objective fact. Originally Posted by wiglin
Since I have gotten more loot (and that is an objective fact, not a subjective opinion), then that statement of his is false.
If you want to make your case, stop making general statements and trying to apply them to all of us. You don't speak for everyone.
The devs asked for feedback, and I gave some. Now certain people keep jumping all over me because my opinion (based on my experience) doesn't happen to match theirs.
I think the new system is much better than the old one. I also think it could be improved, but you guys don't want to hear that. You just want me to jump on "teh new raid loot is teh suxxors" bandwagon.
You want to pressure anyone who disagrees with you to change to the "right" opinion.
I won't give in to pressure. Go bother someone else. All you are accomplishing is being mildly annoying.
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10-09-2007, 05:10 PM #265Community Member
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The following comment is what I said was subjective: Look in the arrows that statement is subjective to your experience. Originally Posted by Caliban
*shrug* Meh. The game is not about catering to the people who like to short man raids. (Your right it should be about catering to the majority hence polls to get an idea of what everyone wants)
-------->For most people the new the system is better<------. It could be better still, but I'm not going to get all butt hurt over it. ( I have no idea how to break up quotes and put exactly what I am responding too) I quoted the wrong comment in my earlier post when I said that is subjective...forgive my mis-communication.
My statements though where never said to apply to everyone, just to the ones who I have personally talked to in game. That is not everyone. Never said it was. You opinion is fine. I am not here to change. Just to post what I have been told by others. Again I mention the poll idea that is a good way to get a solid look at what the community wants.
I have never pressured anyone to think anything. Read my posts. I have given facts based on what I have been told, and I posted my personal thoughts. I rebutted your comment that for the majority the new system was better. That was your assumption based on the facts of your experience. I never said you were wrong or you had to change your thinking. Just pointing out that my experience was different. Which is to be expected under a pseudorandom system.
This is why I do not like it. Their is too much left to chance. I do not play the lottery or any other games of chance. I play games where my skill, and hardwork will be the deciding factor in the outcome, not chance.
Under the new system you could spend your entire life raiding and never get the 1 or 2 items you want. That too me is not an acceptable way to distribute items.Last edited by wiglin; 10-09-2007 at 05:24 PM.
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10-09-2007, 05:23 PM #266Community Member
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I also want to say that before this system was implemented I was in favor of it, somewhat. I sat on the fence, leaning a little towards change.
I still like the new system, I still like the randomness of it, the fact that the leader doesnt decide, the fact that we get raid loot after 20 times...yes, the new system has far more positives than the old system.
But its unacceptable to spend your time and resources doing an elite Titan run and the group gets nothing for their time. That, imo, should never happen.
And I gotta say it again, something is very, very wrong with the chest loot in ALL the raids. And you can put Gianthold Tor in with that too...Binding is Admitting Defeat ~ YndrofianPlook~Squidgie~Eyern~Irnbru~Grotesque
Of The O.S.D, Argonnessen Originally Posted by Grace_ana
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10-09-2007, 05:25 PM #267Community Member
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I have no interest in obtaining loot items, so I don't really have an opinion about loot systems.
There are other factors that are being influenced, however, that I find I do have an opinion about:
1) Mod 5 has dramatically increased the number of raids going up in the social panel. They are usually for elite and almost always for 12 people. I find this to be a dramatic improvement. The number of raid completions on elite I had before Mod 5 was 1 (one). Since Mod 5 (not even 2 weeks), I now have about 6. Total completions went from about 12 to about 18.
2) Larger raid groups running with a greater diversity of players seems to be improving tactics. This means less death and less frustration. My most recent Reaver and Titan runs have gone very smoothly. Granted, this could also be because the most experienced raiders are now sharing time with the less experienced.
From what I can tell, the objectives for changing the loot system seem like they are being met very well.
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10-09-2007, 05:26 PM #268Founder
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Suggestion
As I posted in one of the many other threads over the last while - there should be a minimum 2 pieces of raid named items drop - regardless of how many players. (or possibly 1 minimum if there is 5 or less people in the group)
If more than 2 players, then everyone rolls randomly as usual. If no one rolls their 1 in 6, then the two HIGHEST rolls get a random item.
Some will say this will again encourage shorting raids. So be it. You will have better chances with 12 than 2 to get more items, but there should never be a system that has 0 items drop.
I would still say the odds should be much higher than 16% - 33% in fact (based on most people running raids with 6 - which gives a 33% under the old system roughly). That way the chances of an item would be equal to the old system, but with the more fair no glyphs.
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10-09-2007, 05:27 PM #269Community Member
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No it's not. That comment does not appear in the post of mine that you quoted. Originally Posted by wiglin
It's pretty stupid to lie like that when all anyone has to do is read the previous posts to verify the facts.
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10-09-2007, 05:35 PM #270Community Member
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I hadn't really thought about this but I do like these suggestions. In particular the token idea to me, has a good distribution. They tried this with the bronze tokens in the desert.. but come on that was ridiculous how many you need to get a random roll.. however, you implement the same code for a static loot table..much better. The idea that power gamers would dominate this is valid but if you make the tokens bind, like invader tokens, that fixes one problem. Second safe guard is you can only stack x number, i.e. once you get the number necessary to turn in you cannot loot more till you go get an item. Thus prevents hording. Thirdly, from any raid list I would only want a few items per character as we all probably do thus you will raid till you get what you want and thats it. Lastly, to address the issue of whether you want a raid list or say a level of quest +1 chest (ie the table the current chest rolls on for random loot) give that as a toggle option just like how we can turn off end rewards being class based or not. Originally Posted by Drith
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10-09-2007, 05:42 PM #271Founder
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Turbine has not overstepped their rights. They own the game and can do what the want. We can argue all day long about x, y, and z but in the end, like any artist, they own the rights to their work. Originally Posted by Luthen
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10-09-2007, 05:51 PM #272Founder
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Fine. I misspoke. they have the right to dictate how the game is run. they do not have the right to control how we decide to play the game so long as it does not negatively impact others or break any rules. Soloing or short manning raids does neither of these. Originally Posted by Chelsa
Now... I have sort of lost my way in this thread and would like to avoid getting into play style and back to the topic of how best to find a middle ground that will work and be fair for all players.Luthen || Eldormadoh || Luthian || Theodread || Madmardigan || Whillow || Earnur || Halbarad || Adnakhor
"A good player overcomes. A poor player is overcome" -Proud member of DWAT
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10-09-2007, 05:57 PM #273Community Member
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There are some GREAT ideas in this thread, and even some I agree with, so I appologize if I am repeating anything that has been said in past posts.
A) I think the new system is far, far better than the old system. Overall it has shown a huge upswing in 12 man raids, and it is much better for the game as a social setting.
B) I really do NOT want to see all of the Raids go to "No Flag". The raids should be as different, and as varried, as the general missions themselves.
C) From the averages I have seen in game, and have seen anacdotally reported in game, it seems that the actual number of loot pieces have INCREASED. It would be helpful if Turbine could confirm or deny that, with actual statistics.
D) Getting No loot as a whole makes people angry. I understand that it was put in to decrease "short manning" raids, and may need to be continued.
My suggestion for compromise would be-
In raids where Reflagging is required - Queen/Dragon - A minimum drop of 1 item should be implemented for groups of 10 or more players in quest of completion. This would reduce the appearence of Zero loot, and stop the stories of (We ran 12 quests with 12 people and got only one item when the old system we would have goten 24, wah!) unfairness for quests that require Flagging, and gives a reason for the reflagging to occur.
Further - To do 20 reaver raids, you need to do 3 prequests, 1 end quest, 3 optionals for blooding and 20 raids for a total of 27 quests.
To do 20 Dragon quests you need to do VoN 1-4 EIGHTY times, Twenty VoN 5 for a total of 120 quests.
To do 20 Titan quests you need to do 3 pre quests once, 20 T1/20 T2s for a total of 43 quests.
To do 20 queens, 3 pre quests x20, DQ1 x20 and 20 queens for 100.
The items are a mix, the quest difficulties all play into the mix, etc. but in the end, the effort you have to put into the Reaver is much less than you have to put into the Dragon Raid. (By the way, if I have made errors on numbers of missions, feel free to correct me, and I will update my post)
As such, you may want to lessen the number of "Completions" for raids with higher pre-mission requirements for the auto award. The Dragon and Queen could be reduced to 15 without significant game impact, and 10 would be in the same ball park as the Titan in terms of missions completed and time invested.
Stormreaver and Titan can pretty much stay at 20 completions and be more than fair.
Finally, in the "Rune Chest" a swing of 10/12/14 items, with no chance of Money, Scrolls, Wands or Ammo would be a base "upgrade" to the chest. Normal modifiers would apply with a chance for Vendor Sale items, but it would salve the wounds of no end item. In addition, putting in a 1/6 chance for "Related Named Item" for a raid would be nice, meaning if you don't get a raid item, you get a shot at a "Silver Bow" or "Platemail of the Giants" or other lesser item (Demi-Raid lets say, that could be fun as well.
regards,
muffinquartermasterLast edited by muffinlad; 10-09-2007 at 06:02 PM.
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10-09-2007, 06:03 PM #274Community Member
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You should read the whole post. I said I quoted from the wrong one. I mentioned the one meant to quote from in arrows because I am not savvy on all the code for picking and choosing what to quote. I even mentioned that I mis-communicated that comment. I hit quote on the wrong post. As far as calling me a lier well to each their own. I am not going to start name bashing on a forum...lol Originally Posted by Caliban
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10-09-2007, 06:05 PM #275Community Member
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Originally Posted by muffinlad
there is no way that is true click on luthren's name he has a thread where loot dropping his being reported....less raid loot is dropping not more....In Game- Hsc, Malcis, ESD, Narsfilth, Nashnarlar, Axeslar, Darksilence, Nullnvoid, Norvex, Takanobu, Warzerk, Harshnarlar, Antibio, Zintarnarlar, Zorest, Axenroses and Intherear Originally Posted by kaidendager "I find a larger flaw with gathering data from dissatisfied customers and forcing proposed changes on a satisfied player base"
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10-09-2007, 06:09 PM #276Community Member
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I do not have a problem with everyone in the game having raid loot. I play to have fun developing my characters. At this stage of the game that growth comes from raid loot. It doesn't bother me if everyone has uber gear or not. The gear is bound and it cant be traded or sold.
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10-09-2007, 06:13 PM #277Community Member
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Setting the raid glyphs to random, rolling a 1d100, or accepting a 1/6 chance (or any 1/X chance, so long as X is not 1 or 0) are fundamentally no different. You still have a loot distribution curve.
The current 1/6 chance is essentially the same (on average, with groups of 12) as setting the raid glyphs to random under the old system, but with 1 huge difference:
It feels really really bad to do a raid and get no raid loot. It is SO disappointing, especially when it happens on a new raid... twice in a row. These are the big moments that people remember - the first time victories. It doesn't matter if the numbers average out. The bummed out feeling after that first victory leaves a stain.
Going back to the issue of distribution curve:
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/7687/randomwa3.jpg
The graph is not a real distribution curve for a 1/6 chance, as the curve to the left and right of 0.167 would not be symmetrical. It is just a rough thing to illustrate that random loot results in averages which, by definition, means there is some kind of distribution curve.
For the individual on normal: 1/6 chance to get loot
Thus, there is a 5/6 chance to get nothing
Say you do 20 raids:
That is a (5/6)^20 chance for an individual to get nothing. In other words, 1/38 people who do 20 raids will get nothing.
Turbines solution:
Reward list of raid loot is generated for completing 20 raids.
Problem:
The list is random. In fact, the list is not only random, but it is also biased. It operates as follows:
So the highly valued & sought after loot, with lower drop rates, is still probably not going to appear on the reward list.RAID LOOT: Not every item has the same chance to drop on a treasure table. It's exactly as if you opened the chest (X) times with a 100% chance of generating a raid item, but with no chance of duplicates.
- Eldarin
1/38 players who do 20 raids get nothing, until the reward list. Then there is a chance, greater than 50%, that a specific high valued item will not be on the list. So they run the raid for 2.5 months, non stop timer, get nothing, and then don't see the item they want in the reward list. What if it was a casual player, who spent 8 months to do those 20 raids as oppose to 2.5 months. And then, after not getting anything yet (as will be the case for 1/38 of them), they see the reward list fill with items that they do not want.
Is this good for business?
Is it good for business to have entire 12 person raid groups feel bummed out after spending a night raiding and not get anything?
Sure, some groups may get 5 items. And they will feel good. But that pretty little distribution curve is not only applied to the individual, but also to entire raid groups (the numbers are different, but it's still there). This is an unavoidable consequence of relying on a random system. There will be raid groups that get nothing over and over...and over.
If you think this kind of reward system is a good business model, then continue using it.Last edited by Vhlad/Sair; 10-09-2007 at 06:21 PM.
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10-09-2007, 06:15 PM #278
Aren't you aware that that means you were having no fun! Originally Posted by Lorien the First One
NO FUN I SAY!Have a question about the Eberron Setting?
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10-09-2007, 06:27 PM #279Community Member
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As long as raid loot is based on individual rolls and not tied to group size then I have no issues. Although I do believe that we should be told our chances for each raid.
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10-09-2007, 06:33 PM #280Founder
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There are already way to many responses here for me to read. But one thing that is a pain is flagging. Flagging is the most annoying thing, having to get reflagged constantly just drives me nuts. I don't mind the current raid loot mechanic, could it be better? Of course it could and I am sure there will be dozens of good suggestions in here, my suggestion is not about the loot itself.
Personally if I didn't have to run 3-5 pre-quests each time I wanted to raid I wouldn't mind as much. Get rid of reflagging please. There is no need for it. It just burns players out on the game faster. The timer is more than enough, if you must make the lockout timer an even 5 days, but again, please get rid of having to reflag, it seriously kills my interest in raiding at all.
I know this will likely get buried or at the very least ignored, but there are my comments anyways
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