Official Raid Loot Feedback Thread - USE THIS THREAD for feedback.

**Issip** · 10-09-2007, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by tihocan

I don't see how it could be done without some kind of stupid trick like "pull 12 levers at the same time". There is a lot of variance in players' skills, experience, equipment, etc. so you can't design a raid that really require a number X of people without locking a lot of players out of the raid.

And note that even if it was possible, it wouldn't help with your complaint, which seems mainly to be that raid loot is now too hard to acquire (since it is also the case with the old system in a large group).

I used to play WOW long ago, and it had serious problems as a game, but raid encounters were light years beyond DDO. I remember the old Molten Core days - we needed 40 people to do the raid. 35 people was really pushing it, we really needed the extra 5 people. The great part was that the challenge was in the fights - everyone had to work together and work hard to win in those raids. DDO raids can be done with 1 or 2 people because the boss encounters are too short and too easy. It would be great to see a raid with multiple boss encounters (multiple bosses), and the encounters are truly epic battles, not kyting around to wait until a lever is pulled or a laser can be fired.

Probably now that the level cap in WoW is raised that particular raid can be done with fewer, but there are tons of raids with multiple boss encounters that require practice for full raid parties with top end gear to beat the boss in a straight forward battle (no levers).

From what I've seen in DDO I can understand why you would think it impossible, but if it can be done in WoW I think it can be done in DDO.

As far as the fact that I enjoyed the small raid groups - you are correct this won't help, but at least it would lead to challenging content, not challenging odds against getting a reward.

**MysticTheurge** · 10-09-2007, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Beherit Baphomar

Heres how it should work (imo)

Keep it as is. Random loot for each participant. Same chance of loot dropping as we have now. Only difference should be if you dont have a raid item drop for you then you have a raid token drop. Then, the token is used to trade for raid loot. How many tokens? I dunno, ten? Twenty? Thirty? Thats something the Devs can work out.

That is what we have now.

**Laith** · 10-09-2007, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by MysticTheurge

That is what we have now.

not really.

in the current system you can get a token AND a raid item.

...and the token doesn't take a bank slot

**Luthen** · 10-09-2007, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by Bracosius

Things I would not like to see changed:

I would not like any option for the raid leader to assign raid loot.

I would not like a raid loot guarentee.

Although getting no items when running elite is frustrating, guarenteeing raid loot would just make groups short man again.

It is nice to see so many LFM's up for raids and being able to join and do one almost anytime of the day.

What is everyones problem with short manning raids? Just because some folks can't or don't do it why is it others should be penalized? Because it goes against what Turbine had in mind when they designed the raids? Sorry... some players are better then the Devs expected and were able to do things more efficiantly then the Devs. You want a real answer to short manning raids? Make better raids. Make raids that force cooperation from a group effort. Instead of these long drawn out elaborate flagging processes how about a raid that requires some real effort?

No loot on a raid is not acceptable. Short manning raids should be at the discretion of the individual and should NOT be governed by Turbine because they want it done a certain way. If you force players to have to group for a chance at raid loot you'll only succeed in making some of them angrier. Allow people to play in the style that best suits them. People who don't want to hang out with large groups can keep short manning and those who are more social can keep doing it their way. But punishing people with no raid items because they didn't follow you're idea of how to run a raid is not the answer.

That's like a parent grounding their child because they want to become a Doctor instead of a Lawyer. It isn't Turbines job to dictate how we accomplish the tasks they set for us... or at leats not the manner in which we do it so long as it does not infringe on the players rights around us and does not go against the code of conduct.

**Dirac** · 10-09-2007, 02:01 PM

Well, I don't know if combining the threads was a good idea; it's hard to keep track of the discussion.

I hated the old system; the current is better with some tweaking. I can't stress enough how even a few acutely negative experiences can poison a person's perspective of the game. There are some good suggestions here. I'm ok with: guarantee of 1 item if x or more people are in the raid (x somewhere in the 6-9 range?), and being able to choose from the whole list after 20 completions.

However, I'd like to emphasize my original suggestion:

A character should get a raid loot item for their first completion. It will have to be bound to prevent exploiting, and run through the "character filter" to prevent armor for warforged, etc. However, one will get a potentially useful item that first time through. Honestly, this is the big one right? What are the most meaningful times you have playing? I don't care if you are a casual or power gamer. One of them is beating that raid the first time. For the love of the silver flame, let's make that time special.

**Palmetto** · 10-09-2007, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by Bracosius

Things I would not like to see changed:

I would not like any option for the raid leader to assign raid loot.

I would not like a raid loot guarentee.

Although getting no items when running elite is frustrating, guarenteeing raid loot would just make groups short man again.

It is nice to see so many LFM's up for raids and being able to join and do one almost anytime of the day.

What do you care if I shortman a raid? You are implying that it is WRONG for someone to do that.

You have always been able to start a raid group on your own then you wouldn't have to wait for an lfm.

**Dirac** · 10-09-2007, 02:11 PM

I'm not sure if we want this to get into another shormaning discussion. Right or wrong, the logic is pretty clear. The claim is DDO prospers when there are lots of people looking to group with other people. I follows not to have any incentive to bringing fewer people than you can on any quest. The glyph system was an anomoly in that regard.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong. But that is why people care that others are shortmanning raids, and why every other quest has no advantage to completing with fewer people.

**borgec** · 10-09-2007, 02:13 PM

I don't really have a problem with the way it was implemented.

I ran a raid last night for the first time post mod 5. We ran the Titan on Elite and had 11 people in the group. We had 4 items drop (Battle Coin, Belt of Brute Strength, Bereavement, and Chattering Ring). Not bad pulls.

Also on the raid 2 tomes dropped as well as the Cloak, and Freewill helm. I don't remember what I got in the warded chest so I'm sure it was just vendor fodder, but in the past I always pulled garbage from those chests anyway. Do you want Big 5 items and Mithril FP to drop in every warded chest if you don't get the "Named Loot"?

I really don't see what everyone is complaining about. The general consensus in our guild has been positive and the raids that have happened have averaged out to better than 2 per raid. Most have had 4-6 items with a few 1-2 and a few 0. It's the luck of the roll....PERIOD

Still you need to run a raid 6 times on the same character to have the averages work in your favor. Running 1 raid where zero loots drops and complaining that the mechanic is broken is shortsighted.

Do you play the game for fun or for loot? If you play for fun then this change should be no big deal.

**Snike** · 10-09-2007, 02:20 PM

New system is awsome! If anything, maybe the drop rates may need looked at, but NO changes that some people are crying for. Do NOT go back to set # of drops. All that does is encourage short-manning.

Should there be a chance of getting no loot at all for whole raid? Sure. But it should be just as rare as having 12 raid loot peices drop, unless short-manning.

**amysrevenge** · 10-09-2007, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by Dworkin of Amber

Simple Fix: 1/6 (or better) chance for each player to get loot, Minimum 1 piece for 1-6 players in the Raid at Time of Completion, Minimum 2 pieces for 7-12 players in the Raid at Time of Completion. Problem Fixed.

I kinda like this idea. If extreme short-manning is really the reason for all of this, then you could even do:

Normal
1-5 toons: 1/6 chance each, min 0
6-11 toons: 1/6 chance each, min 1
12 toons: 1/6 chance each, min 2
For every full multiple of 6 people you get one guaranteed drop. Partial multiples don't guarantee anything.

Hard:
1-4 toons: 1/5 chance each, min 0
5-9 toons: 1/5 chance each, min 1
10-12 toons: 1/5 chance each, min 2
For every full multiple of 5 people you get one guaranteed drop. Partial multiples don't guarantee anything.

Elite
1-3 toons: 1/4 chance each, min 0
4-7 toons: 1/4 chance each, min 1
8-11 toons: 1/4 chance each, min 2
12 toons: 1/4 chance each, min 3
For every full multiple of 4 people you get one guaranteed drop. Partial multiples don't guarantee anything.

Or something of that nature (your numbers may vary). The short-manners just need to run on Hard or Elite this way (I've done Titan and Velah with medium-short teams (5 or 6) on Normal, and we could have done just as well on Hard I reckon).

Big Mike

**Snike** · 10-09-2007, 02:25 PM

What is everyones problem with short manning raids? Just because some folks can't or don't do it why is it others should be penalized?

Short-manning is fine if you want the challenge. The way it was prior MOD5 it was the only good way of getting RAID LOOT. You could run 10 raids without getting a drop. Or you could run 10 Short-man raids and get 5-15 drops. That is what people's problem with short-manning a RAID.

The amount of RAID loot per player ratio, people were pulling with 2-3 man teams in a weeks period was just getting dumb.

**Jaywade** · 10-09-2007, 02:34 PM

in the old raid loot system there was a option for a random loot option....raise your hand if you ever did a raid w/ that option..... now we are stuck with not only a random option but the very real chances of a succesfull raid not bearing the fruit of raid loot ....this should never never happen. ..... the fact that some may or may not be able to short man raids also should not be a fact in what ever loot system there is or will be..... I mean how funny is it you make a system that just about forces us to have a full raid party at a time when the game population is at a all time low, and more and more people are leaving......at no time a raid should ever drop 0 pieces of loot. also the reflagging mech needs to be looked at for the new raid it is terrible...you could trade relics for the Gh but not sigil pieces......you are forcing us to farm everything (casue you are not releasing any new stuff till dec) or not play....not smart

**Riddikulus** · 10-09-2007, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by Snike

Should there be a chance of getting no loot at all for whole raid? Sure. But it should be just as rare as having 12 raid loot peices drop, unless short-manning.

The chance of getting no loot in a 12 man raid is about 11%, or 1 in 9.

The chance of getting 12 pieces in a 12 man raid is about 1 in 2 billion. I'd be happy if the odds of no loot was that.

**ccheath776** · 10-09-2007, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by Quarion

We've heard lots and lots of ideas on how raid loot should work. Unfortunately with 20 different threads a day on the subject, its difficult to collect the feedback for the devs.

I'm starting this thread for any player who would like to give us CONSTRUCTIVE (Read: No attacks, flames, expletives (even censored!) or otherwise unacceptable posts) feedback regarding how you think loot should be distributed.

In an attempt to keep the feedback centralized, all other threads on the subject will be closed and redirected to this thread.

Thanks for your help!
-Quarion

If you have twelve in a raid on normal.
At least 2 peices drop. This will promote the use of full raids.
On elite especially.

Less than 12, loot is by individual and has a chance of dropping nothing.

No system where 0 raid loot drops or increase the chances of loot dropping.

ALL, raid items should be made available to choose from on the 20th completion.

Lower raid completion to 10 instead of 20.

#1 suggestion and feedback. Do not go back to the old system. The new system works but it really needs some adjustment.
I'm up to 10 raids run now and only 3 raid loot pieces dropped. 2 titanic docents, which are a titanic dissapointment, and one seal of the earth.

Thats it. from 20 raid loot to 3. I cannot endorse a system that is so grossly malfunctioning like it is.

**Jaywade** · 10-09-2007, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by ccheath776

If you have twelve in a raid on normal.
At least 2 peices drop. This will promote the use of full raids.
On elite especially.

Less than 12, loot is by individual and has a chance of dropping nothing.

No system where 0 raid loot drops or increase the chances of loot dropping.

ALL, raid items should be made available to choose from on the 20th completion.

Lower raid completion to 10 instead of 20.

#1 suggestion and feedback. Do not go back to the old system. The new system works but it really needs some adjustment.
I'm up to 10 raids run now and only 3 raid loot pieces dropped. 2 titanic docents, which are a titanic dissapointment, and one seal of the earth.

Thats it. from 20 raid loot to 3. I cannot endorse a system that is so grossly malfunctioning like it is.

problem is I think they inteneded it to work in such a way... they want us to farm , farm , farm casue no new content till dec..... the Gh farming was one thing (at least we could trade and it was very clear what dropped where) but this new flaging/farming for the raid, farming for taps, tomes and shield pieces....

**Vinos** · 10-09-2007, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by Luthen

[COLOR=ORANGE]EDIT: For a total of 50 raids the old system would have yielded 100 raid items. New system? 64. Do your own math now. I think that's a decent sample.

You guys do know that the system was put in to REDUCE raid loot right?

**Jaywade** · 10-09-2007, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Vinos

You guys do know that the system was put in to REDUCE raid loot right?

I've made this post a number of times only to be scoffed at....it's very clear what's going on isn't it

**Vinos** · 10-09-2007, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Jaywade

I've made this post a number of times only to be scoffed at....it's very clear what's going on isn't it

The math proved that this was a simple reduction in raid loot long before this even went live. We all know there is about an 11% chance of no loot dropping for a 12 man party. Why the uproar now? Perhaps those poor misguided souls who thought this change was really about having full raid teams and a new era of PuG's are finally seeing what people like us have been saying all along.

**MtnLion** · 10-09-2007, 03:12 PM

We should all be pretty sure that there is a mechanic in place to evaluate the loot distribution on the raids. The Devs should be able to, and probably are reviewing what and how many versus numbers completing the raids. Sure it is an annoyance to complete a raid and not get any loot. I have been on raid prior to the new system where loot dropped that I could not get a roll on, that amounts to the same situation (with the added frustration that you know that it was there).

Could we, or should we appeal to the Devs to release some actual data on loot distribution on the raids? Just general terms to let us know that the gloomiest results are posted, and the bright ones are not.

**Riddikulus** · 10-09-2007, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Vinos

The math proved that this was a simple reduction in raid loot long before this even went live. We all know there is about an 11% chance of no loot dropping for a 12 man party. Why the uproar now? Perhaps those poor misguided souls who thought this change was really about having full raid teams and a new era of PuG's are finally seeing what people like us have been saying all along.

There was an small uproar back then from those of us doing the math.

The uproar now is from the people who are feeling the sting of running a full 12 person raid and walking away with nothing. People did not realize how much that hurts until it really happened to them.

Thread: Official Raid Loot Feedback Thread - USE THIS THREAD for feedback.

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