Official Raid Loot Feedback Thread - USE THIS THREAD for feedback.

[Issip]

I think I am a little confused, perhaps because I missed the discussion that led to the loot change. I'm not understanding what was wrong with the old system.

If the problem was smaller groups running raids, the proper course of action is to set up raids to prevent few people from completing it, not take the loot away. (This is difficult in to implement in DDO I admit, but it can be done)

If the problem was people not fairly distributing loot, I would expect that to take care of itself as people refuse to raid with those they do not trust.

My feeling is that the new raid loot system is not fixable, and my best recommendation would be the old system. I'm not interested in a 1 in 6 chance to get loot I don't likely want (e.g. new greatsword for my sorceror, which I would of course give away anyway). Repeating a raid with the same toon 20 times to get loot - that would be ok if I were unemployed and loved the raids for the sake of the raids. Unfortunately, I enjoyed smaller raid groups because it shifts the challenge from herding cats to excecuting strategy (seriously, 12-man groups cause more problems with people not paying attention than they help with the extra manpower). It gets tedious always telling everyone the same thing over and over to keep them from wiping the group - I don't like it when everyone gets mad at the person who messed up, but it happens all the time (11 good people can often not recover from the actions of one careless person).

I was really happy with the raid system toward the end there, as my guild, which is too small to ever field a 12 man team, was finally successfully raiding and we were being rewarded.

So as far as I'm concerned the old system was fine, and the new system means I have little to no interest in raiding, and minor tweaks to the new system don't interest me much.

On the bright side I haven't had to spend any time running the pre-raids over and over since the change so all in all I don't really miss the raids that much.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Simple Fix: 1/6 (or better) chance for each player to get loot, Minimum 1 piece for 1-6 players in the Raid at Time of Completion, Minimum 2 pieces for 7-12 players in the Raid at Time of Completion. Problem Fixed.

Please keep the Raid Loot as End-Reward for the 20th Raid, but please give the entire loot table. I have run the Dragon 40+ times between 2 of my characters, and still have never even seen the Sword of Shadows drop, let alone get a chance to roll for it.

I think that 20 completions is sufficient incentive to get your choice of the entire Loot Table.

------------------------


Additionally: Please go back and look at the Demon Queen and Velah, and PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Change the Raid Flagging System!!! For Velah, once you have completed VON 1-4, that should be it. You should be flagged for good. Just wait your 2.75 days and re-run VON 5-6, just like the Titan. It's bad enough that it's a double-raid to run the Dragon, but having to re-run VON 1-4 every time is a real pain.

And for the Demon Queen, it needs a major change. The initial flagging in Wiz King, Chains of Flame, and Offering of Blood is bad enough, but to then have to do ADQ1 with a 6-man party to flag... that is just ridiculous. Let's look at this honestly. Set the flagging to Wiz King/Chains/Offering/ADQ1, then you are flagged for good. The Stormreaver raid is setup with the quick-and-dirty 15-minute Raid, why shouldn't the DQ be the same?

And while I don't know about the Abbot, as I have been busy running other things, please make sure this raid and ALL FUTURE RAIDS have a one-time flagging. I don't even mind the grind required for the Stormreaver Raid... if we have to work for it for a Flag-Once-and-you're-flagged-forever I think a great majority of the players will be satisfied with that. Now I'll agree that the 20 of each relic is a bit much, but knowing that I'm flagged for good takes some of the sting out of the grind required.

Take a look at Raid Attempts (I'm sure you have ways to do that), and you will see that the Titan and Stormreaver are attempted much more often than DQ & Velah. Even with the VON's being easy to complete, it adds unnecessary time to each run.

I'm usually not one to complain, but the constant re-flagging is a really annoying process, and I will tell you that I have no interest in reflagging for DQ, and barely want to do it for Velah...the only reason I am re-flagging for Velah is for the 20th completion reward... but if I don't get the loot I want for the first #20 reward, I can tell you I have NO interest in running another 20 times through VON 1-4 to reflag.


Short Version: 1-time flagging for All Raids. Raid Loot: Keep the 1-in-6 or better chance, but add minimum guaranteed loot based on attendance in the Raid (1 piece for up to 6, 2 pieces for 7-12 or something like that)

[Shima-ra]

I think the new raid loot system is fine and a great improvement in many ways.

There should never be guarantied good loot per run.
Its far too easy and in 2 or 3 runs you'd have everything you want, and never run the raid again.

[tihocan]

If the problem was smaller groups running raids, the proper course of action is to set up raids to prevent few people from completing it, not take the loot away. (This is difficult in to implement in DDO I admit, but it can be done)

I don't see how it could be done without some kind of stupid trick like "pull 12 levers at the same time". There is a lot of variance in players' skills, experience, equipment, etc. so you can't design a raid that really require a number X of people without locking a lot of players out of the raid.

And note that even if it was possible, it wouldn't help with your complaint, which seems mainly to be that raid loot is now too hard to acquire (since it is also the case with the old system in a large group).

[DolfaTrueheart]

New System:
Two Abbott Kills = Zero Loot.

With Old system we would have had 4 loots distrobuted to members and in use. Instead you have left us with anger and nasty posts for you.

I think the old system was fine. Just because some people couldn't share or learn how to evenly award the loot doesn't mean it should have went away...

Perhaps maybe code it so people can choose there loot method.

[wiglin]

1 Time flagging = good.

I know that you cannot get away from the grind completely in an mmo, you can still do away with what isn't enjoyable. At some point you have to balance challenge, grind, and fun. If the first two are ever greater than the last you have a game that only a few hardcore will play.

Bungie said it best when they developed Halo 1. Create 30 seconds of fun and recreate it over and over. Now I am not comparing an FPS to an MMO, but mearly the concept to what has made the Halo franchise the largest revenue generating entity in the entertainment industry (beating out the release of spiderman)

Grind does not equal that 30 seconds of fun over and over again. This is not dnd it is an mmo based on dnd. We do not need grinds we do not need harsh death penalties. We need fun. People who want to have a harsh death penalty and crappy loot tables can enforce that upon themselves, but add the elements that make the game fun for the masses and let the few hardcore I want to die and grind players do it themselves...aka permadeath and +1 weapons only.

[Boulderun]

I think the new raid loot system is fine and a great improvement in many ways.

There should never be guarantied good loot per run.
Its far too easy and in 2 or 3 runs you'd have everything you want, and never run the raid again.

In 3 runs of the old system there would be 6 raid items. Half the raid lists are garbage, you'd be better off getting a +2 seeker 4 kama of greater ooze bane to vendor for cash.

In 3 runs with a new system guarenteeing only 1 per... hell, I don't even need to continue. You know you have to be extraordinarily lucky to 1) even see the raid items you want appear and 2) actually get them after three tries.

My main has 44 Velah, 33 DQ, 20 Titan, and 13 reaver completions. The only raid I'm "done" with is the Titan, and that's only for one character. I do have a ton of raid loot; most of it is sitting in the bank because it's either garbage that I collected for the hell of it, or something halfway useful that nobody present could use and I collected for the hell of it.

[nabrendel]

Well to echo many of the previous sentiments getting zero raid items out of a raid is just not allright in my book. There should be a 1+ effect in play for the raids.. in other words.. guarantee 1 item (random on who gets it) then each additional player should receive the current ratios of getting a raid item. However, the problem with that is as others have pointed out, the raid chest table needs up changes. I really got disappointed when I ran the Reaver on elite the other night and I pull a stack of +5 holy arrows, +5 acid darts, and plat plat plat... sorry that is a failure. And many of the people in my group were getting the same, I got better items out of the non warded chests than the warded ones. Please really look at the table for these, it had been previously stated that they drop superior items to anywhere else in game, and I have to say that is not the case. I pull better items from other lvl 14 quests on a regular basis. I am not saying put only in the uber items that people want but raise the min lvl to say only generate items usable lvl -2, so a lvl 12 raid generates, at worst, min lvl 10 or 11 items, lvl 14 raid generates min lvl 12 or 13 items, etc.. granted you may still get vendor trash but at least its more likely to be something useful.

Oh and btw Ghost touch on armor/shields = useless. Sorry not shield bashing ghosts. If you made it remove their bonus to hit us.. that *might be useful

[Bracosius]

I think the new system is on the right track and just needs a little bit of tweaking.

Running a 12 man elite Reaver raid and seeing no items drop is frustrating. But I don't see how this can be fixed and not have people short manning again if you guarentee loot.

The alternate non-raid loot is bad. I received gold, plat, and +5 repair kits out of what used to be the warded chest. That was very disappointing. I may have rolled bad for loot but I don't think such a poor loot selection should even be an option for the Reaver raid on elite.

My suggestion would be to leave the raid loot random and non-guarenteed, but adjust the non-raid loot table so people can receive decent items even if they get no raid loot.

[GoldyGopher]

In the past week plus our guild has run 24 raids and seen 54 raid loot items drop.

Generally we run 12 man raids with all raids on elite, our average is 9.75 characters per raid with almost 23% of characters getting a raid item.

13 Reaver
6 Titan
3 Demon Queen
2 Dragon


For us the change is a positive, even though last night we were blanked.

[oronisi]

We've heard lots and lots of ideas on how raid loot should work. Unfortunately with 20 different threads a day on the subject, its difficult to collect the feedback for the devs.

I'm starting this thread for any player who would like to give us CONSTRUCTIVE (Read: No attacks, flames, expletives (even censored!) or otherwise unacceptable posts) feedback regarding how you think loot should be distributed.

In an attempt to keep the feedback centralized, all other threads on the subject will be closed and redirected to this thread.

Thanks for your help!
-Quarion

I would say that the biggest 2 problems I'm seeing are no loot drops, and the greed factor involved in how the new system works. I don't want to discuss how that plays out, I would merely like to offer my constructive feedback on the loot system. Here is what I would suggest:

1) Implement a separate raid loot system, and give the party leader the option to set the loot system. Just as the LFM changes are broadcast to all party members, make sure all party members know what loot system the party is running in. The loot option should be locked upon quest entrance, just like changing a party from raid to party size does.

The new raid option would be alot like the old system, in that it is for the raid leader to distribute the loot. A system message would broadcast for the leader upon openning a chest reminding them that this is the group's loot, to be distributed via the leader.

2) Implement at least 1 raid item dropping on each raid. Random amonst all participants.

[Kisaragi]

My personal preference would be to have the really nice items as the end rewards, not the end chest.

Depending on what level you run the quests at, how many people you have in your group, and a random amount you get so many tokens. People then trade the tokens in for something they want from the raid after so many runs. Let me show you how this would work;

Random Element - 3 to 6 tokens drop at random for completing a raid.
First time within the raid = +2 tokens.
Hard Difficulty = +3 tokens
Elite Difficulty = +6 tokens
10 people = +1 tokens
11 people = +2 tokens
12 people = +3 tokens

Group A decides to run the hard version of a raid with 11 people. At the end of the raid each member in the group gets 2 (base) tokens from the final chest. The total amount would be 2 + 3 + 2 tokens = 7. Make rewards cost from 15 to 20 tokens and we're in business.

Group B decides to run the elite version of a raid with 6 people. They get 4 from the end chest as base. They get a total of 4 + 6 tokens = 10 tokens. It might be easier for them to run, and they get more tokens for doing it elite, but they don't get the bonus for having extra people participating in the raid.

Group C decides to run the normal version of a raid with 12 people just to explore the raid and have fun. The end chest rewards them with 6 (base) tokens, so each person ends up with; 2 + 6 + 3 tokens = 11 tokens.

So you can see raids become fun. Someone isn't doing raids sixteen times just hoping they get lucky with rolling in the group, and lucky that the item they wanted dropped. If they run it a few times (especially since people get tired of raids rather quickly) they can exchange their tokens for 1 piece of raid loot.

It eliminates the doing six, ten, twenty raids without getting anything valuable out of it. If people want to devote the resources to raids, after doing it a few times they should be able to get something, and preferably something they want.

It works quite well with Invaders and I'd love for it to go not just to raids, but chain quests as well.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Nice to see Q taking an interest.

Heres how it should work (imo)

Keep it as is. Random loot for each participant. Same chance of loot dropping as we have now. Only difference should be if you dont have a raid item drop for you then you have a raid token drop. Then, the token is used to trade for raid loot. How many tokens? I dunno, ten? Twenty? Thirty? Thats something the Devs can work out.

Give us something for the hours spent doing some raids. Running VON 1-6 isnt a five minute job, and when NOTHING drops...hmmmm....12 unhappy campers.

No raid loot then you get a token toward raid loot.
Raid loot, no token.
20 completions, raid loot.


Or even simpler...leave it all as it is right now, but do something about the loot in the chests....bump them up to lvl14 chests or something...hell, people are pulling repair kits outta Velahs chest...why the HECK does a Red Dragon hold onto repair kits?
If people knew the chests had phat loot then they wouldn't grumble so much about lost raid items.

Plain and simple make it worth while to run raids.

[Bracosius]

Things I would not like to see changed:

I would not like any option for the raid leader to assign raid loot.

I would not like a raid loot guarentee.


Although getting no items when running elite is frustrating, guarenteeing raid loot would just make groups short man again.

It is nice to see so many LFM's up for raids and being able to join and do one almost anytime of the day.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

I would say that the biggest 2 problems I'm seeing are no loot drops, and the greed factor involved in how the new system works. I don't want to discuss how that plays out, I would merely like to offer my constructive feedback on the loot system. Here is what I would suggest:

1) Implement a separate raid loot system, and give the party leader the option to set the loot system. Just as the LFM changes are broadcast to all party members, make sure all party members know what loot system the party is running in. The loot option should be locked upon quest entrance, just like changing a party from raid to party size does.

The new raid option would be alot like the old system, in that it is for the raid leader to distribute the loot. A system message would broadcast for the leader upon openning a chest reminding them that this is the group's loot, to be distributed via the leader.

2) Implement at least 1 raid item dropping on each raid. Random amonst all participants.

Just dont like the idea of the loot put into one persons hands.
You think there could be any way of making the system know who had won what roll?

[Gadget2775]

No raid on any difficulty should yield NO RAID LOOT. At least a minimum of 1 item per raid should be required. On the other side of that coin no raid should yield 12 raid loot items. I am not a mathemetician so I will leave the true number crunching to those better suited to the task.

Secondly 20 completions is far to high a number for raids other then Stormreaver and maby Black Abbot (although I have not yet run the Abbot... later this week we're hoping). Assuming the Abbot is like the Reaver. Also what about adding the 20 run rule to Tempest spine loot rewards? Maby those items arent the best but it would still be a nice incentive to go back to running those once in awhile. My suggestion, unless you're willing to remove the multi-quest pre-flagging for DQ, Velah and the Titan pre-fight raid, is that you reduce the quest threshold from 20 completions to 10 on those raids.

/signed

[Chelsa]

Reading this thread is like reading the rules for Fizzbin.

Each person gets 6 cards, except the player on the dealer’s right, who gets 7. The second card dealt is turned face up, except at night, when it is face down. (Dark or night is defined as being the sunset time and before the sunrise time of the city in its own time zone.) On Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Sunday, the cards in the pile cannot help you, but can only hurt you. On Friday, they can only help you. On Saturday and Tuesday, they can both help and hurt you.

[Riddikulus]

My only comment is that running a raid with any number of people and getting nothing should not be allowed.

I don't know how the raid item generation is done internally, but if it is possible I think that a zero raid item result should just be rerolled.

[oronisi]

Just dont like the idea of the loot put into one persons hands.
You think there could be any way of making the system know who had won what roll?

Yes, I know there are several people that don't like the idea of the loot put into one person's hands. That's why I'm requesting it as an OPTION. You can choose to join or not join a raid based on the way the loot is set up.

I'd also be for a need/greed roll system similar to what WoW has, but that seems like it would take much more work to implement.

[SneakThief]

I'm sure all of this has been said, and I only got through 3 or 4 pages, so ...

The Problems:
-People are VERY dissapointed when nothing drops.
-People are MORE dissapointed with the random loot from the raid chest.

I dont know what THE solutions should be.

I kept brainstorming how, programatically, to ensure at least one or two items drop. Then someone else said it. Roll it behind the scenes before the chests are opened. Since you now have code in place to lock the chest loot to the people in the quest when the boss is defeated, also add some code in that process to roll each person's chance at raid loot. Then if you don't get at least one or two people with loot, re-roll the group until you do.

Another one I have always been a big proponent of is the token/credit system. Ex: From the 2 per 12 ratio of the old system and the 1/6-1/4 from the new system, 4/5/6 tokens/credits for normal/hard/elite. Turn in 24 tokens from a short list of stuff (heck the list could be as short as 2 for all I care, just no repeats).

As for the junk in the raid chest:
I think that one is a no brainer. Narrow the table range to the upper side. I dont see people get dissapointed (even on elite) when there is junk in the 3 small chests in Reaver. But when the raid chest is full of rocks and pots, thats rather disheatening (the NPC reward is as well, but thats another problem all together). At lease make sure if its going to be full of random junk that its at least profitable random junk.