PURE Pally help

[gamer111]

Hi everyone, I have been playing for about 6 months now and am slowly figuring out the jargon( he he old PNP player) Anyway I am and always have been a big fan of a Pally, though for DDO I'm not sure what skills/ ablities all the stats affect. I was wondering if I could get some advice for starting stats for a 32 pt build pally so I can start to plan for that great day. He will be Human, sword and board, and a pure pally of course. No I do not have a ton of +6 items or tomes yet.( and since I send a lot of items and pp to my son's chars, I am not uber rich) Any help would be greatly appreciated, I am more looking forward to roleplaying a Pally because that is what he is,than beating every char out there for DPS(??) If you could keep it simple for the dumb newb I'ld appreciate it. Any feat/skills suggestions etc would also be welcome.
"the measure of a man is not what he says, but what he does!!!"
Thanks all and good hunting.

[Slayer918]

This thread may help you out some:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=118081

I would start your stats at something like this:

16 str (palidans are front line fighters, str is your main attribute, however you need to be more well rounded then a fighter or barb who can afford to start at 18)

12* dex (enough to fill out full plate w/o having to use a slot on dex (this also gives you room to improve if you every get lucky and pull some +5 mithril fullplate or want to use a daggertooth's belt)

14 con (your hitpoints will save you)

8*-13 this will be up to you, first decide what skills you want, jump and balance are nice and you can keep them up w/ 8 int since your human - If you want combat expertise then you can start at 12 int and use a +1 tome or if you would prefer just start at 13

the rest of your points to be split between wisdom and cha with a slight edge going to cha (however I wouldnt put cha higher then 14 as then u start paying double)

* If you go 8 int you will have more points and may want to start your dex higher say 14 and then going 16S/14D/14C/8I/12W/14C this should give you a very well rounded build, if you want combat expertise you will have to drop your stats 4-5 points to raise int... I would probably drop dex to 12, con to 12-13, and cha to 13

Feats:

I HIGHLY recommend toughness, the feat itself is only 16 hitpoints but through paly enhancements can be as much as 66 which is NOT a small amount

Improved Critical is another great feat for any melee character

I would recommend picking up Power attack (or Combat expertise, either or depending on what you want from your character), It's easy to get your to-hit to a point where you wont feel the -5 to hit

Other then that it's really up to what you want from your character, you want to be somewhat of a buffbot pick up mental toughness maybe, extend used to be nice for a palidan for divine favor, but now you won't save any SPs, might as well just cast it twice (although its still usefull if you want combat expertise so you only have to reset it every 2 min instead of 1)

EDIT: As far as enhancements go I would NOT take palidan's charisma III, Palidan's charisma I and II are IMO AP efficient (as long as your hitting an even number), however spending 10 APs to go from palidan's charima I to III to get you to the next even number is a steep cost for the benifits you gain IMO...

[gamer111]

Ty for the input, nice to see a gamer help a "PNP" out

[Mithran]

There are still some pure paladin advocates around, but I'm moving farther away from them all the time, where my build experiments go.

I'm on about my sixth/seventh roll of a paladin, and I have a more and more difficult time justifying it, now.

My own experience in D&D/AD&D goes back to the late seventies, and Hillary Clinton was First Lady of Arkansas (where I lived for a few years, then). In reading the literature, paladins seemed to have the best utility. In my practice here, though, I've found a few levels of fighter (and the inherent Feats and Skill choices thereby) make a lot of practical sense.

Balance and Jump (the Skills) are very important abilities. In order to have points to invest in Skills, you need Intelligence, and points for Intelligence are hard to come by, for paladins. A paladin should have high Strength, fairly high Wisdom, and high Charisma. Belonging as he/she does, in front-line combat, your character also needs high Constitution.

In lieu of human, I've played almost (I've experimented with a couple dwarves) exclusively elves. They take a hit to Constitution right off, but they trade their lack of an inherent toughness for being harder to hit.

Being as you're committed to playing a pure paladin, and human, my first recommendation is taking the Toughness Feat, as has already been recommended. In practical terms, keep a Healing wand about you. This enables you to invest your Skill points in places other than Heal. Jump, Tumble, and Balance are all important for elven paladins, but for humans, I'd say Tumble is probably less significant. Invest in Jump and Balance as you progress, and you'll sometimes have encounters where Diplomacy is important, too.

Where Feats are concerned, Improved Critical is important, and I suggest you look at taking Khopesh Proficiency, as it's the best of the one-handed weapons, and if you're going 'sword-and-board,' it's your best bet, and you can get it as your Human Bonus Feat. If you decide to take Khopesh Proficiency, in later levels, take a Feat of Improved Critical: Slash, too. It will dovetail nicely with your khopesh use. With Toughness, Khopesh Proficiency, and Improved Critical, you've still three Feats to choose.

[gamer111]

I have and existing 28 pt human lvl 9 pally and wanted to try your suggestions so I decided to reset my enhancements so i could try some of the recommendations in this post. Now for some reason I can only chose like 4 enhancements and no more show up even though It says I have 31 action points left to spend. Is this common or am I hooped?? Do i train all the enhancements from my current level Pally trainer.?? Anyway thanks again.

[Girevik]

Enhancements have three "things" associated with them:

1) A cost in action points. With 31 free Action Points this isn't an issue for you.

2) A minimum level at which they appear for selection. This is probably not the issue for you.

3) A minimum number of Action Points that you must have already spent before this Enhancement is purchasable. For example, the Level 3 Paladin Enhancement Resistance of Good I costs 2 Action Points, but can not be selected until after you have already expended 6 Action Points on other Enhancments.

The third is probably where your problems lie. Humans have a fairly thin selection of racial enhancements and I, personally, have always had a difficult time allocating for a human without having to spend points for enhancements I don't really want, but need to get just to move along. (As opposed to Dwarves who have a plethora of good selections.)

[Zenako]

I have a Pure Human lvl 14 Paladin. I chose to make him somewhat of a caster and healer and somewhat strong fighter.

I have decent HP, but not great, but I am able to withstand the damage (and self heal) quite well with some OK AC and Heavy Fort.

I have 349 SP (449 with the Magi Weapon Equiped) and can cast a lot of buffs to offload the main casters. I never took extend. Was not a good option. I do have Improved Crit: Slash.

I have a number of enhancements tweaked for healing improvement and 3 Lay of Hands per rest. I also took the Divine Sovereignty enhancements. That gives me one UBER heal every 20 minutes. By UBER it is 1000 HP of healing and does pretty much everything a HEAL spell would fix. It lets me fix a feebleminded caster if I need to since only a HEAL spell would normally do that. A number of the casters out on Axtaria's Island will feeblemind casters which really can blow.

I can check on what other Feats I took later if interested.

Going Pure Pally does get you to 4th level spells, the main one being Death Ward that I keep focused. With the new MOd 5 content I am casting that one all the time.

One other thing about LoH. It is Now an INSTANT effect making it a LOT more useful. It used to have a casting animation with it making it take too long at times. I have been able to save multiple pink condition party mates in mere seconds by toggling Fx keys and the Lay on Hands. My LoH do about 170 points of healing a pop IIRC. More than a scroll of heal, but less than most skilled Clerics casting HEALs. You can also spam them at undead and seriously get their attention. Was doing that last night with a certain Undead Beholder...even that dude notices over 500 HP of "healing" on him.

[zoltan00]

Honestly i think a pally can be really well balanced with 16 str but 18 str is really good if your gonna go with 16 str might aswell go with hafling but anyway if you need some tips here are my stats on my Pally

Zoltan Pure Pally Drow

18 str base 28 str
10 dex 20 dex
10 con 18 con
10 int 16 intel
11 wis 19 wisdom
15 cha 24 charisma

I have 304 sp 52 ac just standing and 65 buffed up
I have 318 hp buffed 382 base 3 LOh that do 170
save are at 30,29,28 can get them up to 38,32,31

If i have any advise is i might have made him huma just because of the +1 to hit, and human virsitility

At first i wasnt sure if it was gonna work out but i really worked out nice

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

From my personal experience, I would never roll a Paladin with only 10 Con. Hit points are FAR to key in this game. 12 or 14 should be the minimum for any melee-oriented Paladin. Now, for a caster/healer/utility/ranged/non-melee-focuse Paladin I can see 10 Con, but not for a melee-oriented one.

Now, back to the OP, yes, as the second poster stated, I would recommend the Basic Paladin Build Guide (written by yours truely - link in my Sig). I have a number of basic Paladin builds in there. Don't be scared off by Tomes and +6 Stat Items... you can build it without them just fine. +6 Stat Items and Tomes can be hard to get a hold of until you have a Level 14 or two, but don't worry, +5 Stat Items are MUCH easier to get a hold of, and any build that plans for a Tome & +6 Stat, means that No Tome and +5 Stat still means an Even Ability Score, so you are good.

[gamer111]

Thanks for all the input, I readjusted some of my enhancements as per the basic pally build recommened earlier and kept what I liked to use personally.I came up with a nice round build I could keep. I then ran the pit and I did fairly well with him. The enhancement problem was that I did not have enough pts spent to pick some of the ones I wanted when i first reset, but it all worked out after I selected the show unavailable tab I could plan ahead. I appreciate the help, and am again jazzed about playing my 28 pt human pally. See you in the game.
My original stats were
Str 16
dex10
con15
int8
wis14
cha14, and by taking pally boosts and human adapt got some pretty good #'s as per the basic pally build.

[Mithran]

I agree with Dworkin on the paladin's need for Constitution.

[jmonty]

i'd like to roll an elf pally, and get the raise dead enhancement, but i am too fond of all the HP dwarfs get.

[ErgonomicCat]

In lieu of human, I've played almost (I've experimented with a couple dwarves) exclusively elves. They take a hit to Constitution right off, but they trade their lack of an inherent toughness for being harder to hit.

I really have to disagree.

Elves take a penalty to a stat you'll want to be at least 14, so you'll have to get it to 16, or 18, if you want the hp, so you're spending extra points.

They get a bonus to a stat that you won't be taking over 16, at the highest, end game, because your ultimate armor is either +5 full plate (+1 dex mod) or +5 mithril full plate (+3 dex mod). So even at your ideal armor, a 16 is the highest dex you'll want. And starting with a 16 dex on a pally, unless you're doing a finesse fighter, just isn't worth it.

On top of that, elven racials just don't lend themselves to a pally. Elven Dex is useless since you'll easily hit that 16 dex with items. The only ones I can see being worth it are the longsword bonus, but 99% of the paladin builds I've seen that are sword and board go with the khopesh, so that invalidates that.

Dwarves have a similar issue with stats, but the dwarven bonuses give you axes, which are nice, and usable, since dwarven axes are d10, and greataxes are fun. They also have Dwarven Con and Armor Mastery, both of which are very useful to tanks.

Warforged as well - they take a hit, but they have lots of benefits inline with pallies.

And humans are always good for builds that need feats and skills - +1 skill/lvl is nearly an effective +2 int for a pally, since int only gives them skill points and possibly combat expertise.

Not to say that an elven pally can't work - you can certainly do it, and do it well. But elves are pretty much the archetype of "race not to pick for paladins" to me.

[Mithran]

I've struggled with elven paladins since Day One. I'm working on a multiclass, high-dex paladin/rogue/fighter (11/2/1 is what I expect) and a two-handed elven paladin. If you go elven, you can try high-dexterity and lighter armors.

Dwarves get the bonus Con which is nice, but Charisma is a critical stat to take a nerf to, as a paladin, so I haven't liked either dwarven or warforged paladins, personally.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Personally, the only real reason I see for choosing Elf/Drow for a Paladin build (of almost any type) is if you are going Two-Weapon Fighting (or Finesse, but why?). Then the racial Dex can help.

But don't discount the Elf/Drow Racial Weapon enhancements. They are as strong as the Dwarven Axe series, and really up the DPS potential of the Longsword Elf (especially when paired with Soverign Host for +3/+2 at all times) or the Shortsword Drow + Follower of Vulkoorim (again, giving +3/+2).

While I give all the races equal treatment in my Paladin Build Guide, personally I can only see Human, Dwarf, and Warforged as the "best" classes for Paladins (and I could be persuaded on Halflings), but I just can't see myself ever rolling an Elf or Drow into a Paladin (or even a Fighter for that matter)

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Dwarves get the bonus Con which is nice, but Charisma is a critical stat to take a nerf to, as a paladin, so I haven't liked either dwarven or warforged paladins, personally.

I know a lot of people are immediately turned off by Dwarf and Warforged for a Paladin due to the Charisma Penalty... but let's look at this rationally:

1) Most Paladin build have 12-14 starting Charisma.
2) Most Paladins want more Hit Points
3) Many Paladin go into Rouge for Evasion
4) Most Paladins are DPS-focus

Ok, #1 doesn't rule out Dwarf or WF at all. If Pallys were 16-18 starting CHA then yes, but 12 Cha + 1 Tome + 1 Pal Cha 1 + 6 Item = 20 (+5), which is plenty for most Paladin Builds.

#2 & #4 give good reasons to go Dwarf, and to a lesser degree, Warforged.

#3 is actaully a VERY good arguement for WF, as the WF Immunities make Evasion less necessary, or the WF Immunities + Evasion means you are that much harder to kill

So the reality is, that Dwarves and WF can make very good Paladins.

Warforged offers a lot of Immunities, that when paired with Evasion, make a very-hard-to-kill character. Add in the fact that LoH works at full effectiveness on WF. Now they are -1 Feat usually, due to having to take a Body Feat @ Level 1.

Dwarves, already the Master Race in DDO, lend themselves well to a Melee-Oriented Paladin, with or without Evasion. Dwarven Armor Mastery, Tactics, Toughness, and Axe Attack/Damage are all potent tools for a Paladin (especially the Armor Mastery and Tactics, as they usually cannot get those without a significant Fighter splash).

[efreet5]

Lower Con does not necessarily gimp a melee toon. Simply by taking toughness and using the enhancement line he still has a respectable amount of hps. As Zoltan said, he has over 300 which is good.

Example: Elf 14 pal

10 con +6 item= 16 = 42 hp
20 Hero Feat Thingy
10 Argonessen
140 = 10 hp/lvl pal
66= Toughness
----
278

If Grtr Falselife item....
+30
-----
308

Not to mention....can use minos legens and get another 14 hps

=322

This is more than enough so no reason for high con. As stated in other threads loh helps us survive longer and with 3 or 4 of them and high cha it is like having extra hps. There is no reason that cha absolutely has to start at 14 or higher. For fighters and barbarians it is more important because they are very dependent on clerics and outside buffs to survive. Paladins have the ability to heal themselves more efficiently than these other classes which makes them more able to handle having lower hps.

[Emili]

From my personal experience, I would never roll a Paladin with only 10 Con. Hit points are FAR to key in this game. 12 or 14 should be the minimum for any melee-oriented Paladin. Now, for a caster/healer/utility/ranged/non-melee-focuse Paladin I can see 10 Con, but not for a melee-oriented one.

Now, back to the OP, yes, as the second poster stated, I would recommend the Basic Paladin Build Guide (written by yours truely - link in my Sig). I have a number of basic Paladin builds in there. Don't be scared off by Tomes and +6 Stat Items... you can build it without them just fine. +6 Stat Items and Tomes can be hard to get a hold of until you have a Level 14 or two, but don't worry, +5 Stat Items are MUCH easier to get a hold of, and any build that plans for a Tome & +6 Stat, means that No Tome and +5 Stat still means an Even Ability Score, so you are good.

10 is ok - 12 is better, 14 is great if you can spare your wis or cha, 16 is min str, it really comes down to more how you play the game... Fact is only my Barb breaches the 300hp line. And all my other melee - two fighters and a pally - are in the mid 200's with HP and end up carrying stones of people with two to three times the HP - you figure that out - what it is is balance... decent dps along with saves, HP and to a lesser extent AC in high end elite content account for survivability. Some people just walk up thinking 300-600hp is somehow great while they're standing there swinging away and getting hit back... If you watch your health and move around in combat you can melee on a 180 hp bard effectively. Standing there and taking the beating in the first place while hitting the mob back for 50's and 40's on average is a waste of resources - just because you've 600hp does not make it right to be a bloody sponge.