What's up with the AI targetting casters?

[GlassCannon]

Honestly, I ran through PotP about seven times earlier and none of the Aurum made a b-line for me (the cleric), like everyone seems to be talking about.

As far as I can tell, things aggro on the PC that they see first, or whoever deals the most damage. I generally don't pull aggro at all unless something saves against Destruction.

I have rushed in as the crazy dwarf, enraged and fully psychotic, and half the monsters rush right past me and start mashing the cleric. Places seen: Shan To Kor(entire series), Inferno of the Damned, Tangleroot, Stormcleave... and I think Cabal for One. In almost all these cases the cleric was at the BACK of the party and rushed through everyone to attack specifically the Cleric and nobody else. I even whalloped a monster for 126 slash damage and it kept on going(it had a sliver of health left), attacked the cleric, and died when the ranger shot it down.

[Missing_Minds]

The problem here is that it really seems to be mob dependent.

I've noticed that dwarves seem to target who is in front of them a bit more often than other races.

Hobs and trolls make beelines for casters.

Ogers... will try to make it towards the caster first, but if anything smacks it, it iwll change direction. (so long as its action que allows it to do this) (this tested with range weapons and a wizard.)

Orcs... hard to say there. They'll make a rush for casters first then everything else much like we do. Probably the most like PCs I've seen.

Giants... caster then whomever hit them twice. Once is not enough.

Slimes go for casters first then whomever hits them. They will also ALWAYS try to flank you. It is this "race" that I have the biggest issue with the AI.

Vermin and animals.... They seem to have a habit of going after whom they see first.

Outsiders and magical beasts tend to target casters first.

Constructs... depends. WF go for casters first, Iron golems the casters. Clay and flesh golems... whomever they feel like.

Undead.... casters first unless it is zombies or mummies, then anyone is fair game at any moment.

Charisma does not matter. Tried this out with a paladin and sorc. Sorc had only 2 points more cha than the pali. They still tended to hunt down the sorc first even if the sorc was a good 50 feet away after the pali comes in. Pali is in their face, sorc hasn't attacked, pali hasn't attacked, Mobs ignored pali and went for sorc. *shrug*

Oh yeah, and for some reason, and it could just be me, but halfling ANYTHING just means munchy. Which really means bad stuff for my poor bard. I'll die in the Reaver and Dragon runs always at least once and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

I hate the slime AI the most.

[MrWizard]

I just did the cursed crypt normal with my 14th lvl caster..

The skeletons that were non casters ran right at me...no spells cast by me.

The red named skeletons ran by entiure group, all along the passageway to get to me some 60 feet away.

The silver flame dudes, especially at the end guy charged me....well, two fo them did, went through the entire party to do it too....

no doubt that as a caster they have added a 'target' robe to you and teh mobs will instantly attack you even if they are already engaged and you are a mile away....

plus side? IT was REAL REAL easy in a few dungeons I did today to simply 'haste' and run a MAJORITY of monsters around while the melee took them out one by one...

So forget web, clouds, hypnos, just haste and run in circles and the party wille asily survive as the mobs will ignore all but you and just follow you around.

Kinda a cheap exploit, hope they change the AI soon on that....but running circles is awesome....really works with specters as they will COMPLETELY leave the party alone....

kinda liking the new aggro, saves mana....lol

[Harncw]

Exactly.

I bet there a thread on the monster's forums:

Kobold Shaman:

What the hell, man? I have like 1/3 the hp of the warriors, who are up in the guy's face, and he still *JUMPS* over them to attack me? I've cast two magic missles. That warrior's sticking a sword in his crotch!!!

Turbine, please please please make realistic PIs, okay? That fighter *obviously* made Int his dump stat, and he has on an amulet of the brute, but he still charges straight for me when I'm still invisible! Obviously he's using cheats, with his 7 int.

I mean, sure, wizzies with 34 int can make good choices, but the big meat shield? Come on....

Hobgoblin 1- "who should we try to kill first?"
Hobgoblin2- " I dunno maybe the big robot in the shiny white armor with the gigantic sword that was telling his friends all the crazy magic gear hes got on to make him unstoppable"
Hobgoblin3" Holy **** look out hes running figure 8s swinging his sword in every direction"
Hobgoblin 1-" actually what a bout that wafer thin guy in the robe wiggling his fingers he looks easier to kill."
Hobgoblin2- "oh ya and we can eat him after"

hilarious

[Raithe]

When they implemented the "improved" AI, it immediately became obvious that:

Monsters that suddenly see the whole party will attack those in BACK - class notwithstanding.

Monsters that get hit by any sort of spell (ok, almost any...I've seen about 3 that don't draw aggro) whether damaged or not will proceed to beeline towards the caster - whether they can see the caster or not, whether there's a cliff and lake in the way or not, whether the caster hides behind a large object, stealths and moves away quietly while still being out of sight...you simply can't lose them in most situations. There are a few ways to lose their aggro, but they're location and/or situation specific.

Monsters will not take any of their own abilities or traits into account, the AI treats nearly every monster the exact same way be they a kobold or a giant, unthinking zombie or enemy wizard, slime or bi/quadruped. Another caveat here, since the AI change happened I have noticed changes that are bringing things back to a more rational state, but there's quite a bit of work left for the devs to do. Oh, and the latest mod has made some monsters take forever to get from point A to point B, pausing frequently along the way...I think a pathing bug got introduced.

Monsters don't take our abilities into account, either...I've seen them spam-cast will-save spells on clerics and fort-save spells on fighter types, rather than try to hit us with the thing most likely to debilitate us. It's really funny when they feeblemind the party fighter or barbarian. Um, yeah. With tactics like that, it's no wonder the monsters get dead so much more often than the PC's.

Some very good observations here, good post.

I think some of the not-so-good observations posted are caused by melee myopia. Yes, you may have critted for 150 points of damage, but the caster or cleric can crit for well over 500 points. And, sometimes, those rays or spells don't show up in animation very well. If you think a mob's behavior is completely erratic (which is actually kind of true for some mobs, such as golems), you should probably ask around your party to see if what you thought was true really was.

I would also add that Eladrin made an offhand comment about character class not affecting mob aggro. If I decide to take the time, I may edit this post and provide the link.

[binnsr]

Just jumped back on after a 3-month hiatus. A buddy of mine and me jumped into the Orchard to check it out. My Wizard buffs his fighter and we approach some mobs. Well, the mobs start making a b-line for me immediately. Ok, I figure, it's just random or something, or my Scorching Ray must have hit them before the fighter did. Fine. So we move on to the next mob, a group of golems. Well, this time I wait and just stand there, not casting any spells, so the fighter can get the aggro. He's wailing on them with a scimitar... and they STILL run for me. I haven't even done anything, he's doing hundreds of points of damage to them, and they're STILL rushing for me, ignoring the guy that is wailing on them with a scimitar? Um, what? Same thing happens on many other mobs-- zombies, vampires intelligent and unintelligent mobs... I mean, ***? This is pretty ridiculous. Maybe I can see it with intelligent mobs like Vampires; but I certainly can't see this with non-intelligent mobs.

It really seems like DDO has it in for casters. They give Barbarians and Dwarves MORE hitpoints while changing the AI to target casters... this AFTER casters are already hurting.

Now, please, before you flame, realize that I play both casters and tanks. I enjoy playing both. And casters can still be useful. But I have to say the AI seems a little borked here when a mob will totally ignore the guy wailing on them with a sword and rush through an entire group to reach one guy standing doing nothing at the back of the party. This does not work to promote balance amongst the parties, and it isn't really kosher with PnP DnD when unintelligent mobs are targetting casters. So I do have to say thumbs down on the way this works.

Just my 2 cents.

quick solution -- bring a damage spec cleric .. have them drop a maximized blade barrier (mostly) in front of your walls of fire .. most of the time, they're chasing the cleric now instead of the caster.. My experience is that most mobs find it hard to ignore 400 points of damage over 2 hits..

[narizue]

I would say that the BB peels aggro pretty well. Slices, dices, makes a fine red mist.

I hear the concerns though. I think it has something to do with aggro being assigned to the character farthest away from the mob. When I zerg with my caster there is little aggro, but if I hang back, aggro hell.

[bnrilfun]

My understanding and it makes total sense to me, is that the AI is now changed to target specific classes first. So Clerics and Casters are first to get Targeted. Quells make a beeline for the cleric because they are drawn like a moth to a flame.

And in the case when I play my sorceror that is exactly what they get a firewall maximized, heightened, and extended, and when I get level 16 empowered. Of course they now made flame retardent skeleton bones which is really bogus.

Doesnt Turbine take the seriousness of cancer right and eliminate the use of Asbestos covered undead???

Sorry to side track. Anyway I think its appropriate that they go after the squishies first it makes it easier for our fighters to get thier casters.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

My understanding and it makes total sense to me, is that the AI is now changed to target specific classes first. So Clerics and Casters are first to get Targeted. Quells make a beeline for the cleric because they are drawn like a moth to a flame.
The last official word that we had was that this is incorrect. They are not targetting specific classes. They are(sometimes) targetting whoever is farthest away when the mob gets aggro'd.

And in the case when I play my sorceror that is exactly what they get a firewall maximized, heightened, and extended, and when I get level 16 empowered. Of course they now made flame retardent skeleton bones which is really bogus.
Yummy yummy. There's nothing like some firewally goodness to light up a quest.

Doesnt Turbine take the seriousness of cancer right and eliminate the use of Asbestos covered undead???

Sorry to side track. Anyway I think its appropriate that they go after the squishies first it makes it easier for our fighters to get thier casters.
I agree that this would make sense. But as far as any Dev has told us, this hasn't been implemented yet.

My thoughts in red.

[Missing_Minds]

Of course they now made flame retardent skeleton bones which is really bogus.

*scratches head in confusion* ??? have you never run Caverns of Koromar or Old Gray Garl?

blackbone skelys have been around a long while.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

Here's the quote I was looking for(Thanks to whoever remembered it was from Eladrin)

The in game GM was incorrect. Your charisma has no effect on whether or not you will be targeted first by monsters. In fact, with rare exceptions, neither does your class or race. (Rust Monsters prefer to eat tasty Warforged, for example.) A character with a high Charisma will, however, have better success with Diplomacy and Intimidate, which will alter a monster's targeting decisions.

There was a longstanding bug where the player farthest away from the monster when it activated would typically be the monster's initial target, but that's been fixed. (That bug did make it very likely that the arcane casters or healers would be the monster's initial victims.)

Although, according to this post, they are under the impression that the bug was fixed... so...

[Perceval418]

It really seems like DDO has it in for casters. They give Barbarians and Dwarves MORE hitpoints while changing the AI to target casters... this AFTER casters are already hurting.

When im bored, i solo every possible named instance in the Orchard with my sorc using only the two shrines that are found in the quest. The new content is very caster friendly.

However there are changes to diplomacy. Namely that if you accrue a ton of aggro (doing 400dmg with a single scorching ray for example) one diplomacy isnt enough to remove aggro, nor is just a fighter hitting it with a sword. Golems and Zombies have an aggro range of a two year old, so you just have to step away and theyll stop following you in most cases. But sometimes they will charge you from across the room when all youve been doing is watching them be hit on by a fighter.

Think of it this way, when you walk into a room who do you target first? I for one begin by spamming FoD on all the casters. In most quests i run in fighters never even feel the touch of a fireball or debuff because im on the casters so fast.

So this just seems realistic to me...

[DoctorWhofan]

On a related note, in the necropolis, my clerics are getting reamed! No Mass heal no heal at all and nowhere near the fight (but in line of sight of thetank types) I was being attacked by the creature that were not touched by me with any spell and were half down HP by the fighters! WOrse, when I did a heal spell (not mass heal) on injured comrade, I was bum rushed. My repair bill was horriable and died twice as much as anyone else. It's like we ooze goodly aura. If we do, then why weren't the mother of all goodlyness, Paladins get attacked like I was?

I thought about it and I think the mobs think like we do. What to we do when we attack a group of mobs? We go for the casters/clerics. Hoisted by own pitard.

[MysticTheurge]

WOrse, when I did a heal spell (not mass heal) on injured comrade, I was bum rushed.

Healing has contributed to aggro for some time now.

And honestly, it makes sense. I mean, we don't just stand around and let the bad guys heal each other, that's a recipe for disaster (and before anyone says "Yeah but we don't have unlimited SPs" we'd do it anyway, even if they didn't).

Killing a fighter who gets almost fully healed by a cleric 4 times and then the cleric is about three (or more) times as hard as killing the cleric then the fighter.

And yes, intelligence, AI, how do they know, all that. But overall it's not an invalid tactic.

(And, on the topic of 'how do they know', I suggested to the group I was in last night that they probably know what with you chanting and waving your arms around.)

[Spell]

The real laugh is if you charm a monster.
The AI for attacking casters first goes right out the window. Heck, sometimes the charmed mob will sit there picking theirs noses while you're getting wailed on, let along attacking the monster casters first. And I can't count the number of times a charmed mob is 'trying' to kill my summoned pet.

[smatt]

Hmm well I f I were a mob (you'd all be screwed) LOL.. Anyways, well welcome to D&D, as PC's it's very good tactics to target the casters/healers first, why do you suppose or even propose that it would or should be different for the mobs? Casters are by far the most powerful in the game (too powerful from my point of view) as it should be though in D&D high level casters are just bad ass. Therefore, they have the potential for doing the most damage and therefore SHOULD be under many circumstances the main target of the mobs. Kill the caster/healer... Chance of party going to much higher.... Just as it is when it's us going after them...

It is as it should be

[bnrilfun]

I finally was able to experience Rust Monster lovin for Warforged and almost fell out of my chair laughing. Furors is my first WF toon and as we descended into Threnal and a guildie warned me of what could happen.

So the first fight I stayed behind the casters and such and the one rustie ignored all other damage and spells to home in and try to devour me. I swear it was like flies on a dead carcass.

Either way for me this is a riot to see in action and I dont have a problem with it.